Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2023, 11:36:53 AM
The player choose to fuck around, meaning if your character goes fucking around to/with mindflayers... Whatever happens is by YOUR choice.

That's not how it's presented in this adventure. It's literally "do this, or everyone in the area turns into mindflayers".

The only sense in which it's your choice is that you were dumb enough to sit down at a table for someone running a WotC product in 2023.

Geeky probably didn't even read WTF this adventure was about. He just read something about "player consent" being brought up and immediately creamed himself thinking this was meat for his Two Minutes Hate. This is how this module is marketed at the D&D Store.

QuoteIn Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk, journey to the beloved town of Phandalin, where a malevolent cult threatens to overtake the region. Together with your party, solve mysteries and stamp out growing corruption as you uncover more about the peculiar happenings plaguing the town.

Discover what lurks below in this high-fantasy adventure that begins with the familiar story of Lost Mine of Phandelver and then delves into the perilous Underdark.

For use with the fifth edition Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide.

All books are English only.

KEY FEATURES

• Offers Dungeon Masters and players a chance to test their mettle in a classic dungeon crawl
• Retains the beloved Lost Mine of Phandelver quests that unfold into a brand-new adventure with classic D&D themes and a tinge of horror
• Presents a bestiary with approximately two-dozen new creatures that showcase psionic magic, mutates , and more
• Provides a magic appendix that includes new consumable metamagic items and duergar magic
• Includes a double-sided poster map with the Phandalin region on one side and the town of Phandalin plus multiple dungeons featured throughout the adventure on the other

INCLUDES:

• Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk printed adventure book
• D&D Beyond digital copy of Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk
• This preorder grants you Early Access to Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk on D&D Beyond starting September 5, 2023

Instantly unlock exclusive preorder perks on D&D Beyond

• The Faction Digital Dice Pack, 10 character sheet frames, and 4 sheet backdrops

There's nothing in there about fucking around with Mind Flayers. That's just something that PCs discover as they delve deeper into this mystery while trying to save a town. There's not even any Mind Flayers mentioned in the marketing text. I basically had to find the module the guy in Twitter was taking about by finding a review that mentioned the modules actual name. Then search for it by name.

This transformation is just a surprise ending if you fuck up while going after this cult. And it affects the entire region the town is located on. Not just the PCs who get involved. This is in NO WAY comparable to PCs getting infected with lycanthropy or whatever. This thread is what happens when idiots refuse to read, then jump in to vociferously opine on a topic, cuz they can't be bothered with pesky things like facts. They're just in it to "win" arguments on the internet.

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 10, 2023, 12:20:39 PM
Geeky probably didn't even read WTF this adventure was about. He just read something about "player consent" being brought up and immediately creamed himself thinking this was meat for his Two Minutes Hate. This is how this module is marketed at the D&D Store.

QuoteIn Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk, journey to the beloved town of Phandalin, where a malevolent cult threatens to overtake the region. Together with your party, solve mysteries and stamp out growing corruption as you uncover more about the peculiar happenings plaguing the town.

Discover what lurks below in this high-fantasy adventure that begins with the familiar story of Lost Mine of Phandelver and then delves into the perilous Underdark.

For use with the fifth edition Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide.

All books are English only.

KEY FEATURES

• Offers Dungeon Masters and players a chance to test their mettle in a classic dungeon crawl
• Retains the beloved Lost Mine of Phandelver quests that unfold into a brand-new adventure with classic D&D themes and a tinge of horror
• Presents a bestiary with approximately two-dozen new creatures that showcase psionic magic, mutates , and more
• Provides a magic appendix that includes new consumable metamagic items and duergar magic
• Includes a double-sided poster map with the Phandalin region on one side and the town of Phandalin plus multiple dungeons featured throughout the adventure on the other

INCLUDES:

• Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk printed adventure book
• D&D Beyond digital copy of Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk
• This preorder grants you Early Access to Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk on D&D Beyond starting September 5, 2023

Instantly unlock exclusive preorder perks on D&D Beyond

• The Faction Digital Dice Pack, 10 character sheet frames, and 4 sheet backdrops

There's nothing in there about fucking around with Mind Flayers. That's just something that PCs discover as they delve deeper into this mystery while trying to save a town. There's not even any Mind Flayers mentioned in the marketing text. I basically had to find the module the guy in Twitter was taking about by finding a review that mentioned the modules actual name. Then search for it by name.

This transformation is just a surprise ending if you fuck up while going after this cult. And it affects the entire region the town is located on. Not just the PCs who get involved. This is in NO WAY comparable to PCs getting infected with lycanthropy or whatever. This thread is what happens when idiots refuse to read, then jump in to vociferously opine on a topic, cuz they can't be bothered with pesky things like facts. They're just in it to "win" arguments on the internet.

Out of curiosity, do you have the same response to Death, Frost, Doom. There is nothing in the backmatter telling you that you're one mistake from unleashing the zombie apocalypse. If not, what is the difference? Before the former is from Raggi and thus you expect it but not from WotC?

Does every possibility need to be explained upfront or is a GM allowed to have secrets that need to be discovered? If in the process of discovering those secrets do the players have the right to effectively X-card the side effects. Can an adventure not have world changing stakes? If it does, is it meaningful if losing has no cost?

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 10, 2023, 02:37:20 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 10, 2023, 12:20:39 PM
Geeky probably didn't even read WTF this adventure was about. He just read something about "player consent" being brought up and immediately creamed himself thinking this was meat for his Two Minutes Hate. This is how this module is marketed at the D&D Store.

QuoteIn Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk, journey to the beloved town of Phandalin, where a malevolent cult threatens to overtake the region. Together with your party, solve mysteries and stamp out growing corruption as you uncover more about the peculiar happenings plaguing the town.

Discover what lurks below in this high-fantasy adventure that begins with the familiar story of Lost Mine of Phandelver and then delves into the perilous Underdark.

For use with the fifth edition Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide.

All books are English only.

KEY FEATURES

• Offers Dungeon Masters and players a chance to test their mettle in a classic dungeon crawl
• Retains the beloved Lost Mine of Phandelver quests that unfold into a brand-new adventure with classic D&D themes and a tinge of horror
• Presents a bestiary with approximately two-dozen new creatures that showcase psionic magic, mutates , and more
• Provides a magic appendix that includes new consumable metamagic items and duergar magic
• Includes a double-sided poster map with the Phandalin region on one side and the town of Phandalin plus multiple dungeons featured throughout the adventure on the other

INCLUDES:

• Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk printed adventure book
• D&D Beyond digital copy of Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk
• This preorder grants you Early Access to Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk on D&D Beyond starting September 5, 2023

Instantly unlock exclusive preorder perks on D&D Beyond

• The Faction Digital Dice Pack, 10 character sheet frames, and 4 sheet backdrops

There's nothing in there about fucking around with Mind Flayers. That's just something that PCs discover as they delve deeper into this mystery while trying to save a town. There's not even any Mind Flayers mentioned in the marketing text. I basically had to find the module the guy in Twitter was taking about by finding a review that mentioned the modules actual name. Then search for it by name.

This transformation is just a surprise ending if you fuck up while going after this cult. And it affects the entire region the town is located on. Not just the PCs who get involved. This is in NO WAY comparable to PCs getting infected with lycanthropy or whatever. This thread is what happens when idiots refuse to read, then jump in to vociferously opine on a topic, cuz they can't be bothered with pesky things like facts. They're just in it to "win" arguments on the internet.

Out of curiosity, do you have the same response to Death, Frost, Doom. There is nothing in the backmatter telling you that you're one mistake from unleashing the zombie apocalypse. If not, what is the difference? Before the former is from Raggi and thus you expect it but not from WotC?

Does every possibility need to be explained upfront or is a GM allowed to have secrets that need to be discovered? If in the process of discovering those secrets do the players have the right to effectively X-card the side effects. Can an adventure not have world changing stakes? If it does, is it meaningful if losing has no cost?

No, of course you have to disclose EVERYTHING upfront, else it isn't consent, you also can't roll for random encounters (because then there's no consent).

I'm being sarcastic, WHO buy's the adventure module? The GM, not the players, who creates his own adventures? Again, not the players.

Take our current campaign:

Went to a dungeon, saw a ghost, since we had no one able to dispossse of it we ran, because running is also an option.

How do non-retards react to the unexpected change to their character?

https://twitter.com/ChaosChief9/status/1700903571959517244

Quote from: Bruwulf on September 10, 2023, 11:44:07 AM
.....
The only sense in which it's your choice is that you were dumb enough to sit down at a table for someone running a WotC product in 2023.

This, thousand times this.

As an aside, when I read this I expected the usual, oh great, here the stupid goes again.......

But, for whatever reason, I just....don't care. Maybe it's because I realize I've finally buried "official" D&D stuff. I'm not a part of Watzi equation's anymore.

It's kinda like the epiphany I got when Watzi said that anything before 2014 isn't canon.....it's like I felt this freedom. So all this great gaming stuff I own is awesome!!!!

If everything before 2014 is not canon, then by the reverse, anything 5e and after is not canon to me.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2023, 04:59:47 PM
How do non-retards react to the unexpected change to their character?

https://twitter.com/ChaosChief9/status/1700903571959517244

Telling retards how non-retards react to something isn't gonna help...

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 10, 2023, 02:37:20 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 10, 2023, 12:20:39 PM
Geeky probably didn't even read WTF this adventure was about. He just read something about "player consent" being brought up and immediately creamed himself thinking this was meat for his Two Minutes Hate. This is how this module is marketed at the D&D Store.

QuoteIn Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk, journey to the beloved town of Phandalin, where a malevolent cult threatens to overtake the region. Together with your party, solve mysteries and stamp out growing corruption as you uncover more about the peculiar happenings plaguing the town.

Discover what lurks below in this high-fantasy adventure that begins with the familiar story of Lost Mine of Phandelver and then delves into the perilous Underdark.

For use with the fifth edition Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide.

All books are English only.

KEY FEATURES

• Offers Dungeon Masters and players a chance to test their mettle in a classic dungeon crawl
• Retains the beloved Lost Mine of Phandelver quests that unfold into a brand-new adventure with classic D&D themes and a tinge of horror
• Presents a bestiary with approximately two-dozen new creatures that showcase psionic magic, mutates , and more
• Provides a magic appendix that includes new consumable metamagic items and duergar magic
• Includes a double-sided poster map with the Phandalin region on one side and the town of Phandalin plus multiple dungeons featured throughout the adventure on the other

INCLUDES:

• Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk printed adventure book
• D&D Beyond digital copy of Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk
• This preorder grants you Early Access to Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk on D&D Beyond starting September 5, 2023

Instantly unlock exclusive preorder perks on D&D Beyond

• The Faction Digital Dice Pack, 10 character sheet frames, and 4 sheet backdrops

There's nothing in there about fucking around with Mind Flayers. That's just something that PCs discover as they delve deeper into this mystery while trying to save a town. There's not even any Mind Flayers mentioned in the marketing text. I basically had to find the module the guy in Twitter was taking about by finding a review that mentioned the modules actual name. Then search for it by name.

This transformation is just a surprise ending if you fuck up while going after this cult. And it affects the entire region the town is located on. Not just the PCs who get involved. This is in NO WAY comparable to PCs getting infected with lycanthropy or whatever. This thread is what happens when idiots refuse to read, then jump in to vociferously opine on a topic, cuz they can't be bothered with pesky things like facts. They're just in it to "win" arguments on the internet.

Out of curiosity, do you have the same response to Death, Frost, Doom. There is nothing in the backmatter telling you that you're one mistake from unleashing the zombie apocalypse. If not, what is the difference? Before the former is from Raggi and thus you expect it but not from WotC?

Does every possibility need to be explained upfront or is a GM allowed to have secrets that need to be discovered? If in the process of discovering those secrets do the players have the right to effectively X-card the side effects. Can an adventure not have world changing stakes? If it does, is it meaningful if losing has no cost?

I am unfamiliar with that adventure, but this is moving the goalposts and completely besides the point. The point is that specific criticisms about this adventure are being made by certain posters in this thread, such as Bruwulf, myself and others. And those criticisms are being met with gotcha rebuttals that not only fail to address the points being made, but are false equivalences that reveal that the posters in question haven't even read WTF it is that other posters are criticizing. Yet this second group of posters are still shooting off the cuff, confident in their positions despite not knowing WTF they're talking about.

And your response to this is "Oh yeah, but what about THIS other adventure? What do you say to THAT?" When you haven't even responded to the original points. But now I need to weigh in on some other adventure I don't know about on the issue of GM disclosure? When this isn't even about GM disclosure per se. So it's whataboutism AND moving the goalposts.

Go back to Bruwulf's recent posts distinguishing things like Lycanthropy and other forms of transformations from the Mind Flayer transformation used in the adventure being discussed. And Geeky's response to that post for additional context. That's what my post was in relation to. Not about criticizing the presence or absence of GM disclosure.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/player-consent-needed-to-turn-the-pc-into-a-mindflayer/msg1263745/#msg1263745

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 10, 2023, 06:23:35 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 10, 2023, 02:37:20 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 10, 2023, 12:20:39 PM
Geeky probably didn't even read WTF this adventure was about. He just read something about "player consent" being brought up and immediately creamed himself thinking this was meat for his Two Minutes Hate. This is how this module is marketed at the D&D Store.

QuoteIn Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk, journey to the beloved town of Phandalin, where a malevolent cult threatens to overtake the region. Together with your party, solve mysteries and stamp out growing corruption as you uncover more about the peculiar happenings plaguing the town.

Discover what lurks below in this high-fantasy adventure that begins with the familiar story of Lost Mine of Phandelver and then delves into the perilous Underdark.

For use with the fifth edition Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide.

All books are English only.

KEY FEATURES

• Offers Dungeon Masters and players a chance to test their mettle in a classic dungeon crawl
• Retains the beloved Lost Mine of Phandelver quests that unfold into a brand-new adventure with classic D&D themes and a tinge of horror
• Presents a bestiary with approximately two-dozen new creatures that showcase psionic magic, mutates , and more
• Provides a magic appendix that includes new consumable metamagic items and duergar magic
• Includes a double-sided poster map with the Phandalin region on one side and the town of Phandalin plus multiple dungeons featured throughout the adventure on the other

INCLUDES:

• Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk printed adventure book
• D&D Beyond digital copy of Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk
• This preorder grants you Early Access to Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk on D&D Beyond starting September 5, 2023

Instantly unlock exclusive preorder perks on D&D Beyond

• The Faction Digital Dice Pack, 10 character sheet frames, and 4 sheet backdrops

There's nothing in there about fucking around with Mind Flayers. That's just something that PCs discover as they delve deeper into this mystery while trying to save a town. There's not even any Mind Flayers mentioned in the marketing text. I basically had to find the module the guy in Twitter was taking about by finding a review that mentioned the modules actual name. Then search for it by name.

This transformation is just a surprise ending if you fuck up while going after this cult. And it affects the entire region the town is located on. Not just the PCs who get involved. This is in NO WAY comparable to PCs getting infected with lycanthropy or whatever. This thread is what happens when idiots refuse to read, then jump in to vociferously opine on a topic, cuz they can't be bothered with pesky things like facts. They're just in it to "win" arguments on the internet.

Out of curiosity, do you have the same response to Death, Frost, Doom. There is nothing in the backmatter telling you that you're one mistake from unleashing the zombie apocalypse. If not, what is the difference? Before the former is from Raggi and thus you expect it but not from WotC?

Does every possibility need to be explained upfront or is a GM allowed to have secrets that need to be discovered? If in the process of discovering those secrets do the players have the right to effectively X-card the side effects. Can an adventure not have world changing stakes? If it does, is it meaningful if losing has no cost?

I am unfamiliar with that adventure, but this is moving the goalposts and completely besides the point. The point is that specific criticisms about this adventure are being made by certain posters in this thread, such as Bruwulf, myself and others. And those criticisms are being met with gotcha rebuttals that not only fail to address the points being made, but are false equivalences that reveal that the posters in question haven't even read WTF it is that other posters are criticizing. Yet this second group of posters are still shooting off the cuff, confident in their positions despite not knowing WTF they're talking about.

And your response to this is "Oh yeah, but what about THIS other adventure? What do you say to THAT?" When you haven't even responded to the original points. But now I need to weigh in on some other adventure I don't know about on the issue of GM disclosure? When this isn't even about GM disclosure per se. So it's whataboutism AND moving the goalposts.

Go back to Bruwulf's recent posts distinguishing things like Lycanthropy and other forms of transformations from the Mind Flayer transformation used in the adventure being discussed. And Geeky's response to that post for additional context. That's what my post was in relation to. Not about criticizing the presence or absence of GM disclosure.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/player-consent-needed-to-turn-the-pc-into-a-mindflayer/msg1263745/#msg1263745

You can easily look up the adventure.

My point was you're saying "there is nothing here to warn the player about Mind Flayers". I'm asking if that is a universal, that all adventures with widespread consequences need to disclose the nature of those risks up front. I choose one I'm familiar with as an example. If you're prefer a better example I'm happy to entertain it but my question remains the same, does

"There's nothing in there about fucking around with Mind Flayers. That's just something that PCs discover as they delve deeper into this mystery while trying to save a town. There's not even any Mind Flayers mentioned in the marketing text. I basically had to find the module the guy in Twitter was taking about by finding a review that mentioned the modules actual name. Then search for it by name.

This transformation is just a surprise ending if you fuck up while going after this cult. And it affects the entire region the town is located on. Not just the PCs who get involved."

Mean you think if it isn't mentioned in marketing copy it is not fair game to spring on the players. I'm trying to understand your line of thought, but if you want to just dismiss the question I'll work from that.

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 10, 2023, 12:20:39 PM

KEY FEATURES

• Offers Dungeon Masters and players a chance to test their mettle in a classic dungeon crawl

So serious question. Does Watzi even know what a classic dungeon crawl is, anymore? Cause I seriously have doubts.[/list]

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 10, 2023, 09:01:24 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 10, 2023, 06:23:35 PM
*snip*

You can easily look up the adventure.

My point was you're saying "there is nothing here to warn the player about Mind Flayers". I'm asking if that is a universal, that all adventures with widespread consequences need to disclose the nature of those risks up front. I choose one I'm familiar with as an example. If you're prefer a better example I'm happy to entertain it but my question remains the same, does

"There's nothing in there about fucking around with Mind Flayers. That's just something that PCs discover as they delve deeper into this mystery while trying to save a town. There's not even any Mind Flayers mentioned in the marketing text. I basically had to find the module the guy in Twitter was taking about by finding a review that mentioned the modules actual name. Then search for it by name.

This transformation is just a surprise ending if you fuck up while going after this cult. And it affects the entire region the town is located on. Not just the PCs who get involved."

Mean you think if it isn't mentioned in marketing copy it is not fair game to spring on the players. I'm trying to understand your line of thought, but if you want to just dismiss the question I'll work from that.

As I already mentioned, my comment was in relation to the preceding posts from Bruwulf and GeekyBugle, and it was made in that context. I don't care that the adventure doesn't warn player about Mind Flayers. That is not the point.

Geeky said this in response to Bruwulf's post...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2023, 11:36:53 AM

Quote from: Bruwulf on September 10, 2023, 08:58:05 AM

Quote from: Baron on September 10, 2023, 12:00:51 AM
Once my astonishment subsides enough for me to respond I reply, "lycanthropy, vampirism, girdle of femininity (probably no longer an issue), item of opposite alignment, various curses and shape changes, level drain, poison, turn to stone, disintegrate and oh yeah and hit points. If you play, things will happen to your character. Sometimes just because of an unlucky die roll. It's part of the game."

Lycanthropy has two different ways to avoid contracting it even if you do get infected. Vampirism requires you actually die to begin with, so it's a moot point. Cursed items require you actually put a magic item on blindly. All the rest of the things you mentioned have in game mechanics to prevent them - saving throws, armor class, etc.

None of them are comparable to the situation presented in this shitty adventure.

The player choose to fuck around, meaning if your character goes fucking around to/with mindflayers... Whatever happens is by YOUR choice.

...except that Mind Flayers aren't even mentioned in the marketing. So the players did NOT in fact "choose to fuck around mindflayers" specifically. And Geeky's rebuttal is still not addressing the points that are actually being made. He's just trying to "win" an argument in the internet (as I already mentioned in the post that kicked this tangent off). THAT is why I brought that up. This entire tangent is beside the point.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on September 10, 2023, 09:04:29 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 10, 2023, 12:20:39 PM

KEY FEATURES

• Offers Dungeon Masters and players a chance to test their mettle in a classic dungeon crawl

So serious question. Does Watzi even know what a classic dungeon crawl is, anymore? Cause I seriously have doubts.[/list]

With Watzi, it's hard to even tell if they know what a TTRPG is, given that they're desperately trying to reinvent video games with their new VTT. So I wouldn't be surprised if they don't know what a classic dungeon crawl is.

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 10, 2023, 09:01:24 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 10, 2023, 06:23:35 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on September 10, 2023, 02:37:20 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 10, 2023, 12:20:39 PM
Geeky probably didn't even read WTF this adventure was about. He just read something about "player consent" being brought up and immediately creamed himself thinking this was meat for his Two Minutes Hate. This is how this module is marketed at the D&D Store.

QuoteIn Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk, journey to the beloved town of Phandalin, where a malevolent cult threatens to overtake the region. Together with your party, solve mysteries and stamp out growing corruption as you uncover more about the peculiar happenings plaguing the town.

Discover what lurks below in this high-fantasy adventure that begins with the familiar story of Lost Mine of Phandelver and then delves into the perilous Underdark.

For use with the fifth edition Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide.

All books are English only.

KEY FEATURES

• Offers Dungeon Masters and players a chance to test their mettle in a classic dungeon crawl
• Retains the beloved Lost Mine of Phandelver quests that unfold into a brand-new adventure with classic D&D themes and a tinge of horror
• Presents a bestiary with approximately two-dozen new creatures that showcase psionic magic, mutates , and more
• Provides a magic appendix that includes new consumable metamagic items and duergar magic
• Includes a double-sided poster map with the Phandalin region on one side and the town of Phandalin plus multiple dungeons featured throughout the adventure on the other

INCLUDES:

• Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk printed adventure book
• D&D Beyond digital copy of Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk
• This preorder grants you Early Access to Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk on D&D Beyond starting September 5, 2023

Instantly unlock exclusive preorder perks on D&D Beyond

• The Faction Digital Dice Pack, 10 character sheet frames, and 4 sheet backdrops

There's nothing in there about fucking around with Mind Flayers. That's just something that PCs discover as they delve deeper into this mystery while trying to save a town. There's not even any Mind Flayers mentioned in the marketing text. I basically had to find the module the guy in Twitter was taking about by finding a review that mentioned the modules actual name. Then search for it by name.

This transformation is just a surprise ending if you fuck up while going after this cult. And it affects the entire region the town is located on. Not just the PCs who get involved. This is in NO WAY comparable to PCs getting infected with lycanthropy or whatever. This thread is what happens when idiots refuse to read, then jump in to vociferously opine on a topic, cuz they can't be bothered with pesky things like facts. They're just in it to "win" arguments on the internet.

Out of curiosity, do you have the same response to Death, Frost, Doom. There is nothing in the backmatter telling you that you're one mistake from unleashing the zombie apocalypse. If not, what is the difference? Before the former is from Raggi and thus you expect it but not from WotC?

Does every possibility need to be explained upfront or is a GM allowed to have secrets that need to be discovered? If in the process of discovering those secrets do the players have the right to effectively X-card the side effects. Can an adventure not have world changing stakes? If it does, is it meaningful if losing has no cost?

I am unfamiliar with that adventure, but this is moving the goalposts and completely besides the point. The point is that specific criticisms about this adventure are being made by certain posters in this thread, such as Bruwulf, myself and others. And those criticisms are being met with gotcha rebuttals that not only fail to address the points being made, but are false equivalences that reveal that the posters in question haven't even read WTF it is that other posters are criticizing. Yet this second group of posters are still shooting off the cuff, confident in their positions despite not knowing WTF they're talking about.

And your response to this is "Oh yeah, but what about THIS other adventure? What do you say to THAT?" When you haven't even responded to the original points. But now I need to weigh in on some other adventure I don't know about on the issue of GM disclosure? When this isn't even about GM disclosure per se. So it's whataboutism AND moving the goalposts.

Go back to Bruwulf's recent posts distinguishing things like Lycanthropy and other forms of transformations from the Mind Flayer transformation used in the adventure being discussed. And Geeky's response to that post for additional context. That's what my post was in relation to. Not about criticizing the presence or absence of GM disclosure.

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/player-consent-needed-to-turn-the-pc-into-a-mindflayer/msg1263745/#msg1263745

You can easily look up the adventure.

My point was you're saying "there is nothing here to warn the player about Mind Flayers". I'm asking if that is a universal, that all adventures with widespread consequences need to disclose the nature of those risks up front. I choose one I'm familiar with as an example. If you're prefer a better example I'm happy to entertain it but my question remains the same, does

"There's nothing in there about fucking around with Mind Flayers. That's just something that PCs discover as they delve deeper into this mystery while trying to save a town. There's not even any Mind Flayers mentioned in the marketing text. I basically had to find the module the guy in Twitter was taking about by finding a review that mentioned the modules actual name. Then search for it by name.

This transformation is just a surprise ending if you fuck up while going after this cult. And it affects the entire region the town is located on. Not just the PCs who get involved."

Mean you think if it isn't mentioned in marketing copy it is not fair game to spring on the players. I'm trying to understand your line of thought, but if you want to just dismiss the question I'll work from that.

I've been ignoring the degenerate retard (visionstorm) but he keeps name droping me, (you got your fee fees hurt retard?).

So lets see:

The sales copy doesn't mention anything about mindflayers. Okay, and? If the copy doesn't mention it then it shouldn't be there? So if anyone reads the copy he already knows everything inside therefore has an upperhand when engaging with the adventure. Is that what you're complaining about retard? The players don't know everything about the adventure BEFORE sitting to play it? I knew you were a fucking retard but dang that's some retardation.

Now lets talk to the rest of the forum, those who have an IQ above room temperature (which excludes you VS and your degenerate comrades who I'll continue to ignore):

It's been years since I ran ANY bought adventure, but I always do the following (even in my homegrown ones):

Present the hook
If the players engage then procede to react to their actions, which includes disclosing any information the PCs rightfully should know previously or have done enough to "discover".
Drop clues for the PCs to follow or not, which includes clues about the true nature of the BBG (because I'm not an asshole)

So in this adventure said clues would include something towards the BBG having psionic powers, finding corpses with a hole in the head and their brain absent, if they capture a cultist or interrogate someone that escaped a description of the BBG, how it was immune to magic...

Now, lets assume the most assholish GM possible (rocks fall everybody dies type), who doesn't give ANY clue to his players and just drops them in the midle of the BBG...

Does that justify in anyway shape or form that players should give consent to being transformed?

Personally, I would make it known to everyone at the table up front before any game session that PCs are adventurers who face death, dismemberment, and madness at every turn as soon as they engage in an adventure. It is the players' job to create characters who are willing, for their own reasons, to engage such risks for whatever reward their characters will find suitable, and to sit at the table and play the game is to give consent. I'm not here as a GM to hold players' hands as they whine about how they feel about spiders and orcs. I'm here to run a game. These weak-minded people need to either find a way to separate their game worlds from reality, or go play fucking tiddlywinks or something.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2023, 09:58:55 PM
Now, lets assume the most assholish GM possible (rocks fall everybody dies type), who doesn't give ANY clue to his players and just drops them in the midle of the BBG...

Does that justify in anyway shape or form that players should give consent to being transformed?

What does "justify" even mean, in this context?

I'm not actually defending the stupid X-card stuff. I think if a group needs things like that, it's a fundamentally broken group to begin with. Once we all grew up past highschool ("Haha, your elf gets raped by an ogre!!"), I'd like to think most of us understood how things worked at tables we were regulars at. In essence I agree that consent is already understood, because we're adults and we try not to be stupid, immature cunts.

My contention is that it's a badly designed adventure, and that I don't like heavy-handed "rocks fall, everyone dies" fail states unless that's already understood to be on the table going in. Basically, I view part of the understanding we all have at the table is that generally speaking I'm going to be conforming to the rules and expectations of the game we're playing. The PC's failing and they and the entire area getting turned into monsters might be taken in stride in a Call of Cthulhu game, but not in my average Greyhawk game.

You keep going on about how you would do things in a way that they were handled well. I'm not doubting you would. I just don't think that matters when it comes to criticizing a published adventure. Again, by that metric, all products are equally good, since a good DM could make anything work.

... Okay, maybe not FATAL. There has to actually be a workable game.

Anyway.

I do think turning players into mindflayers is essentially indistinguishable from a TPK. I stand by that statement. I'll run with body horror. I'll even run monster-focused - hell, I used to be an emo black-wearing World of Darkness goth dweeb back in the 90s for a while. But when I've played standard, Gygaxian fantasy D&D, I've always subscribed to the "if the players get turned into an evil monster, they become an NPC" school of gamemastering. I know that wasn't even the rule by the time I started playing in the late 80s, but it's always worked for me. Which is where my mentioning of things like the multiple solutions to lycanthropy, or the fact that vampirism as written requires the player to die anyway. My point is there are clear rules, not just - to overuse a phrase - "rocks fall, everyone dies". Or, if you prefer, "cultists win, everyone's a mindflayer".

Sometimes a DM has to improvise rules. And certainly a DM has the authority to make new rules for new spells and things. But I'm very wary of this sort of DM fiat. And I say this as someone who is about 95% a DM and has been for most of my career. 

... whiiiich brings us full circle back to "what does justify mean in context". I think the whole consent-form thing is equally as stupid as the adventure design. I don't think either one really justifies the other, but I suppose if someone held me down and forced me to run that adventure, I would either omit that section entirely, or else...

Okay, actually, no, there really isn't an "or else". I wouldn't run that adventure as written.