When you know that the end of the game is coming, climaxing in a final boss fight, how do you determine the level of power of the final boss?

The boss' power level has a lot to do with how the game is going to turn out, with the party as winners or losers.

In my case, the party feels that it is their lawfully good duty to go and take on the ancient god under the mountain, which is half way true. They have accumulated as much power as they can AND put it off as long as possible.

What I wrote up is - bad -. Because of how wonky the power level of the party is, I don't know if they can take it or not. It is kind of a mystery to me. I could power it down some, making it more fair, but I don't know that it would feel right.

I'm a bit undecided.

I would have said by the time you got to that final battle, you should have a pretty good idea of what they can handle, and then simply step it up a gear.

Essentially every fight that precedes the final battle is essentially a test for the big one.

Losing against the final boss shouldn't be considered a failure.

The big boss and his main minions woudl have been just about the only thing I would have prepped so his powers would be known from the start of the first session

I've had his stats for a long time. I think the party can take him, I'm just not sure.

The party includes, or at least it will after the next game (Pathfinder):

Sorcerer 6 with Sonic Flight
Paladin 6 with STR 26, Sonic Flight, DR 10 / -
Rogue 5 / Barbarian 1 with STR 26, DR 10 / -, +1d6 Good Damage
Fighter 6 with STR 22, DR 5 / -, 4d6 ray attack, high AC, Fire Immunity
Monk 6 with all physical stats in the mid 20s, DR 5 / -, move 50'
Bard (Archery) 6 with a 5d6 bow and the ability to spend an action to make an ally's attack a critical hit.

Following: The Bosses Stats

Shuma Gorath – Form 1 - Tentacle Monster

Chaotic Evil Colossal Alien Intelligence
Init -2; Senses blind sight; Perception +20

DEFENSE
AC 26   
Melee AC 34    Base 10, Strength +8, Dexterity -2, Size -8, Natural +18, Deflection +8
hp 148 (9d12+72)
Fort +20, Ref +6, Will +19
DR 20 / - Immune fire, lightning, cold, sonic; Resist 10 / acid; Vulnerable: force
Immunities paralysis, sleep; SR 21

OFFENSE
Speed Stationary
Melee 4 Tentacles +17 (2d8+24) Critical 20 (x2)
Space 30 ft.; Reach Limit of Cavern

Tentacles
DR 20 / Epic; AC 28
HP 50 /
HP 50 /
HP 50 /
HP 50 /

Each tentacle destroyed reduces the DR of the main body by 5 and natural AC by 2. Normally housed in its body, they have no fire or cold resistance.

Important - only two tentacles attack each round. A tentacle takes 1 round to reset to attack.

Important - the boss has a couple area of effect attacks at this stage like covering the ground in bile and bringing rocks down from the ceiling. These attacks should be more an annoyance than really dangerous to the party.

STATISTICS
Str 42 (+16), Dex 6 (-2), Con 26 (+8), Int 25, Wis 25, Cha 25
Base Atk +9; CMB +31; CMD 41
Feats Power Attack, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Focus Natural Attack, Furious Assault
Skills All +30
Languages All
SQ Cosmic

Shuma Gorath – Form 2 – Cosmic Destroyer

Chaotic Evil Huge Alien Intelligence
Init -2; Senses blind sight; Perception +20

DEFENSE
AC 25   
Melee AC 29    Base 10, Strength +3, Dexterity -2, Size -2, Natural +9, Deflection +8, Flight +2
hp 84 (9d10+36)
Fort +15, Ref +7, Will +18
DR 10 / - Immune fire, lightning, cold, sonic; Resist 10 / acid; Vulnerable: force
Immunities paralysis, sleep; SR 21

OFFENSE
Speed 50 Flight
Melee 2 Tentacles +14 (2d6+11) Critical 20 (x2)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15ft.

Caster – Sorcerer 9
Spells 7 / 7 / 7 / 5

1- Protection from Law
1- Corrosive Touch
1- Magic Missile
1- Burning Disarm
1- Shield
2 – Acid Arrow
2 – Protection from Arrows
2 – Detect Thoughts
2 – Burning Gaze
3 – Cloak of Winds
3 – Dispel Magic
3 – Lightning Bolt
4 – Fire Shield
4 – Ice Storm

STATISTICS
Str 26 (+7), Dex 6 (-2), Con 18 (+4), Int 25, Wis 25, Cha 25
Base Atk +9; CMB +23; CMD 28
Feats Power Attack, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Focus Natural Attack, Furious Assault
Skills All +30
Languages All
SQ Cosmic

Shuma Gorath – Form 3 – Beautiful Human

Chaotic Evil Medium Alien Intelligence
Init +9; Senses blind sight; Perception +20

DEFENSE
AC 28   
Melee AC 31    Base 10, Strength +3, Dexterity +5, Mage Armor +4, Flight +2, Shield +4, Skill +3
hp 57 (6d8+24)
Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +13
DR 10 / - Immune fire, lightning, cold, sonic; Resist 10 / acid; Vulnerable: force
Immunities paralysis, sleep; SR 21

OFFENSE
Speed 50 Flight / Cosmic Flight
Melee Hammer of Destruction +13 (1d8 + 12 + 2d6 vs. Lawful Creatures +1d6 Shuma Gorath’s Fire Damage Aura)
Spell Combat Concentration +17 (and reroll)

Magus Arcana

Pool Strike 3d6 (1)
Dispel Strike (1-3)
Close Range
Concentration

Caster – Magus 6[/b]
Spells 7 / 7 / 7 / 5

1- Freezing Grasp
1- Burning Grasp
1- Shocking Grasp
1- Mage Armor
1- Shield
1 – Magic Missile
2 – Protection from Arrows
2 – Detect Thoughts
2 – Scorching Ray (Frost)
2 – See Invisibility
2 – Scorching Ray (Fire)

STATISTICS
Str 26 (+7), Dex 20 (+5), Con 18 (+4), Int 25, Wis 25, Cha 25
Base Atk +4; CMB +12; CMD 26
Feats Improved Initiative, Combat Casting, Power Attack, Furious Assault, Improved Unarmed, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm
Skills All +30
Languages All
SQ Cosmic

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The idea is they will meet him underground and during the fight - act of fighting him - will free him when he takes on his second form (when his HP reaches 0). This is actually 3 fights in a row, with a brief break in between each, though each fight is easier than the last.

I guess I'm asking a larger question of how powerful should mortals be to fight gods. How do you write up a god for Pathfinder if the highest mortal level is 6 and the most powerful Dragon is CR 13?

There are different ways to do it, but I think that, generally speaking, one shouldn't forget that the Climax itself can play in widely different ways that the ones you foresaw, and that from that point, thought should be given to various possibilities beyond the scope of a straight rules fight.

In other words, the rules are not the game. The strength of a particular foe may be mitigated by the circumstances, environment, choices available to the PCs, their actual decision making in the game, including and not limited to non-combat alternatives.

Big Boss ?

That sounds like Video game slang.

 What happened to good old words and phrases like 'Mastermind', 'Evil Overlord', 'Criminal Mastermind, or even 'Evil Mastermind' ??


- Ed C.

Quote from: Benoist;477525There are different ways to do it, but I think that, generally speaking, one shouldn't forget that the Climax itself can play in widely different ways that the ones you foresaw, and that from that point, thought should be given to various possibilities beyond the scope of a straight rules fight.

In other words, the rules are not the game. The strength of a particular foe may be mitigated by the circumstances, environment, choices available to the PCs, their actual decision making in the game, including and not limited to non-combat alternatives.

I've tried to get some different ideas about it. I've had the idea for some time that there could be non-combat ways of dealing with this. For one, the problem is that it will be released when the volcano erupts. Some drow were keeping that from happening until it sent its minions to wipe out the drow. One idea I had was that they could use the dark dwarves tunnels as a way to channel the lava away from the pool, reducing the pressure and keeping it from erupting. I don't want to give them that idea, so it would be nice to have a good map showing that under dark caverns, dwarf channels, and laval flow so that they could, possibly, come up with it on their own. They know what the drow were doing.

I'm sure there is some other way of doing it. Yeah, a straight rules fight isn't the only way, but I'd bet 4 to 1 that it is the way it will go, so hopefully it is a fair shake if it is.

Quote from: Koltar;477533Big Boss ?

That sounds like Video game slang.

 What happened to good old words and phrases like 'Mastermind', 'Evil Overlord', 'Criminal Mastermind, or even 'Evil Mastermind' ??


- Ed C.

Played more video games than I read comics? (;

Quote from: Koltar;477533Big Boss ?

That sounds like Video game slang.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Boss

Quote from: Cranewings;477536I've tried to get some different ideas about it. I've had the idea for some time that there could be non-combat ways of dealing with this. For one, the problem is that it will be released when the volcano erupts. Some drow were keeping that from happening until it sent its minions to wipe out the drow. One idea I had was that they could use the dark dwarves tunnels as a way to channel the lava away from the pool, reducing the pressure and keeping it from erupting. I don't want to give them that idea, so it would be nice to have a good map showing that under dark caverns, dwarf channels, and laval flow so that they could, possibly, come up with it on their own. They know what the drow were doing.

That's an awesome idea.

Alternately describe the shacky nature of the rock formations sustained by cultures of crystals or mushrooms/myconids or heat-resistant spider web or whatever the hell the drow used to control the flow of the lava. The PCs could destroy those one by one to flood the cavern, wiping out most of the underlings and leaving the not-so-tough guys like say Fire Giants and Salamanders to deal with in a torrent of liquid inferno.

So if the PCs go straight for the fight, chances are, they're fucked. If they try to understand the level before going for the fight, they might actually do something to make it more even for them.

Good call sir. Now I just need to find a good two or three level cavern map.

In my experience, I'd say give them an opponent that you think is just slightly more than what they could handle.

When I've done that, most times, the group has found surprising ways to "handle" it.

RPGPundit

While there's nothing wrong with a campaign culminating in epic violence, I think the concept of a "boss fight" (and the accompanying notion that a campaign must necessarily be about the party struggling against a single master enemy all along) is a grossly overused and clichéd one.

Consider this: the Iliad and the Odyssey don't have a boss fight and they don't suffer for its lack. Sure, they have final fights, but neither of those is against a single powerful man (or entity) who's been pulling the strings all along. Journey to the West doesn't have a boss fight. Beowulf's final fight has nothing to do with the majority of the campaign - the fire dragon was patently NOT the secret ruler behind Grendel and Mrs. Grendel.

A "boss fight" doesn't necessarily have to be against a "guy who's been pulling the strings all along", which is a relatively newer concept as you've pointed out; but it is usually against something that represents the most significant evil.

Arthurian legend has this, of course, with the battle of Camlann.

RPGPundit