The official Dungeons & Dragons Facebook page shared this URL today, and mysteriously asked:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]813[/ATTACH]
http://planescape.com/ (http://planescape.com/)
What do you think?
EDIT
Well, I guess not. It's Planescape Torment Enhanced Edition!
The page source has a line that says: secret="0x50 0x53 0x54 0x45 0x45" Those hexidecimal values convert to "PSTEE" in ASCII.
Yep, it's the Enhanced Edition videogame. I hope they don't mess with the game too much and just enchance its gfx and user interface. Heard Baldurs Gate EE had some wonky things.
About an eventual revival for 5e, well who knows? If this sells well, together with Tides of Numenera recent success, it may be a sign the Weird sub-genre has enough potential for the companies to look into.
Quote from: Itachi;953542Heard Baldurs Gate EE had some wonky things.
It had issues because one of the writers on the new team (Not the original) went brainworm and decided to change the dialog of a few characters.
Plan Escape. Sounds like someone misread "planescape" because they were a new hire who had no grasp of D&D edition history. Of course the way Hasbro operates, that might not be a joke.
JG
Even if you're not a big fan of planescape or its ideas for tabletop purposes, PS: Torment is absolutely worth a play through. Just make sure your main character has high Wisdom, trust me.
Updated my journal.
I wish they would make enhanced editions of the various Gold Box games.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953547It had issues because one of the writers on the new team (Not the original) went brainworm and decided to change the dialog of a few characters.
None of the original dialogues were changed in BGEE and BG2EE. Beamdog was prohibited from changing any of the original stories or dialogues in their contract (at least I recall reading something to that effect on the Beamdog forum when the EE versions were released).
New dialogues, characters, stories, etc. were added of course. Some of those elements were not to everyone's tastes.
Personally, I really enjoyed BGEE and BG2EE, as well as the new 'bridge' story/game
Siege of Dragonspear Castle. (Not every single element or character was my cup of tea, naturally, but that was true of the originals as well. Overall I had a great time with the games.)
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;953557... PS: Torment is absolutely worth a play through. Just make sure your main character has high Wisdom, trust me.
Indeed. Max out Wisdom, and pump up Intelligence and Charisma as well. In
PS:T Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are the "dump" stats.
Quote from: The Scythian;953563Updated my journal.
Heh! :D
Quote from: Akrasia;953740None of the original dialogues were changed in BGEE and BG2EE. Beamdog was prohibited from changing any of the original stories or dialogues in their contract (at least I recall reading something to that effect on the Beamdog forum when the EE versions were released).
One of the writers went onto the forums and claimed to have changed one of the female characters (it's literally been decades since I've played the game, but I think it was the sex-kitten love interest) because she didn't like the original portrayal.
Quote from: Akrasia;953740New dialogues, characters, stories, etc. were added of course. Some of those elements were not to everyone's tastes.
Which means they've broken the supposed contract by adding the characters to interact with all the other NPCs.
That was one of the highlights of the original game, actually. The characters had alignments that may not get along, or have cute dialog between each of them, without any interaction from the player character you control.
Anecdote: WAAAAAAY back when, and I had to look this up cuz I only remember the name Viconia, my roommate had gotten the NE Drow chick and loved the dialog with her. Then after some time in the game, he picked up the Paladin. And the interaction was absolutely hilarious, until the Paladin became hostile to the party and smote the NE &!&$# in one blow, gibbing her instantly. I remember blinking and then Drow body parts were all over the screen. That was hilarious. But it wouldn't have happened if there wasn't any writing that had NPC talk to NPC.
So by adding new characters, they've changed the dialog and interactions. Hence why I don't believe that their contract had anything restricting them.
Quote from: Akrasia;953740Personally, I really enjoyed BGEE and BG2EE, as well as the new 'bridge' story/game Siege of Dragonspear Castle. (Not every single element or character was my cup of tea, naturally, but that was true of the originals as well. Overall I had a great time with the games.)
Do you want to know why Dragonspear was lambasted on their own forums? Because people had issues on the writing.
And the big issue was how the Transgendered character (in a fantasy world with sex alteration items in it... Boggles the mind...) was portrayed.
No one on the street comes up to you and introduces themselves as 'Hi, I'm Gay!', and yet, that's effectivle that one character that does so in Dragonspear. Which frankly, as part of an adventuring party is such a non-issue that the only thing that should have matter is if said character can swing a sword or sling a spell. What you do with your partner of choice or how you think of yourself has no bearing on whether or not you can survive a demon/devil infested fortress of doom.
In fact, here's a better metric, does someone being gay or straight or into plants have any bearing or importance to the story/plot? No? Then don't bother.
And yet, that same female writer that supposedly changed a character in the 'Enhanced Edition', not only did so, apparently did it so badly that she got severe backlash over it.
Quote from: James Gillen;953550Plan Escape. Sounds like someone misread "planescape" because they were a new hire who had no grasp of D&D edition history. Of course the way Hasbro operates, that might not be a joke.
JG
Nah, it was clever wordplay. They knew
precisely what they were doing.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953802One of the writers went onto the forums and claimed to have changed one of the female characters (it's literally been decades since I've played the game, but I think it was the sex-kitten love interest) because she didn't like the original portrayal.
The original dialogues were not changed, but the character was portrayed differently in the
new game (Siege of Dragonspear) for the reasons you mention.
I'm not happy with what that writer did, by the way. But it hardly 'ruined' the game for me.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953802Which means they've broken the supposed contract by adding the characters to interact with all the other NPCs.
This makes no sense.
The
original dialogues could not be changed. The contract said nothing about
adding new dialogues.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953802That was one of the highlights of the original game, actually. The characters had alignments that may not get along, or have cute dialog between each of them, without any interaction from the player character you control.
Yeah, and that
was not changed in the EE versions!
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953802Anecdote: WAAAAAAY back when, and I had to look this up cuz I only remember the name Viconia, my roommate had gotten the NE Drow chick and loved the dialog with her. Then after some time in the game, he picked up the Paladin. And the interaction was absolutely hilarious, until the Paladin became hostile to the party and smote the NE &!&$# in one blow, gibbing her instantly. I remember blinking and then Drow body parts were all over the screen. That was hilarious. But it wouldn't have happened if there wasn't any writing that had NPC talk to NPC.
Yes, and that interaction is
still in the game. It's unchanged. If you have Viconia in the party and recruit Keldorn (the paladin) they will end up fighting (with Keldorn almost certainly winning).
That's still there man. 100% unchanged.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953802So by adding new characters, they've changed the dialog and interactions.
Your own example refutes your claim. The same dialogues, interactions, and so forth are in the EE versions. There just are
new dialogues and interactions.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953802And the big issue was how the Transgendered character (in a fantasy world with sex alteration items in it... Boggles the mind...) was portrayed.
No one on the street comes up to you and introduces themselves as 'Hi, I'm Gay!', and yet, that's effectivle that one character that does so in Dragonspear. Which frankly, as part of an adventuring party is such a non-issue that the only thing that should have matter is if said character can swing a sword or sling a spell. What you do with your partner of choice or how you think of yourself has no bearing on whether or not you can survive a demon/devil infested fortress of doom...
There was a bizarre kerfuffle over one NPC -- a character who
cannot join the party by the way -- who has one transgender line. It's easily missed/avoided/ignored. Yet many people flipped out over it, claiming that it somehow ruined 50+ hours of the game for them, even though the character in question is irrelevant for the main story.
Ironically the mods have been including LGBT characters for years and nobody complained. I recall there being a lesbian romance between two NPC party members. Although the mods for the straight characters included things like abusive fathers, broken families and other special issues. In that sort of environment I would expect permissive attitudes.
Or it might be due to the modders actually caring about their art rather than trying to shoehorn a political statement.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;953911Ironically the mods have been including LGBT characters for years and nobody complained. I recall there being a lesbian romance between two NPC party members. Although the mods for the straight characters included things like abusive fathers, broken families and other special issues. In that sort of environment I would expect permissive attitudes.
Or it might be due to the modders actually caring about their art rather than trying to shoehorn a political statement.
It's not that they're LGBT that was the issue, it's how those characters were portrayed.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;953509EDIT
Well, I guess not. It's Planescape Torment Enhanced Edition!
The page source has a line that says: secret="0x50 0x53 0x54 0x45 0x45" Those hexidecimal values convert to "PSTEE" in ASCII.
I was kind of hoping for a book, but in retrospect it wouldn't really make much sense to reveal a pen and paper product like that. I did check the code myself so yeah PSTEE is legit, though part of me still hopes for a pen and paper product. Just one skinny book, with the Lady of Pain on the cover.
I suppose I should finish playing the original. I still have the disks, though it's easier just to install it from GOG. I did read the novel, as well as the other four Planescape books. I just have a hard time feeling immersed in an isolinear game.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;953831They knew precisely what they were doing.
There's a first time for everything.
Quote from: Akrasia;953855The original dialogues could not be changed. The contract said nothing about adding new dialogues.
By adding new companions (my research found an additional four in the 'Enhanced Edition') that automatically CHANGES the dialogs, because adding is change. I doubt their contract denied the ability to change the characters, because adding new ones, means the old ones had to have new lines added. Contracts tend to be very specific for liability reasons.
As for the Safana thing, I was under the impression (and I will free admit that I could be wrong there) that the writer changed the dialog in the Enhanced Edition to make her seem more sarcastic, because she didn't like the idea of a woman being strong AND sexual. Again, this is what I was lead to believe, I could have been mistaken or more likely misinformed.
Quote from: Akrasia;953855Your own example refutes your claim. The same dialogues, interactions, and so forth are in the EE versions. There just are new dialogues and interactions.
I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion. I just pointed out that the addition of lines due to the introduction of four new characters, requires changing the pre-existing dialogs.
Quote from: Akrasia;953855There was a bizarre kerfuffle over one NPC -- a character who cannot join the party by the way -- who has one transgender line. It's easily missed/avoided/ignored. Yet many people flipped out over it, claiming that it somehow ruined 50+ hours of the game for them, even though the character in question is irrelevant for the main story.
Video game Roleplayers tend to be very particular about setting immersion, and a badly written character can break it. This, apparently, was it.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953917It's not that they're LGBT that was the issue, it's how those characters were portrayed.
How did they portray an LGBT character in a way that caused offense? Did they pull a bioware and hire a teenage girl to write the romance subplot?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953955Contracts tend to be very specific for liability reasons.
TheRPGsite, come for the roleplaying discussions, stay for the multiple legal analyses per month.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953955By adding new companions (my research found an additional four in the 'Enhanced Edition') that automatically CHANGES the dialogs, because adding is change. I doubt their contract denied the ability to change the characters, because adding new ones, means the old ones had to have new lines added. Contracts tend to be very specific for liability reasons.
The words in the original dialogues were unchanged. The lines in the original dialogues were unchanged. (Character X says Y in both the pre-EE and EE versions.)
Does adding new dialogues and lines change the originals? I had been operating with the "common sense" notion that if the words of the original dialogues were not changed, then those dialogues were not changed, despite the addition of new ones.
If I build a gazebo in my backyard, while
not altering a
single physical element of my house, have I changed my house? Your answer seems to be "yes". I had been assuming that the answer to that question is "no". It seems to depend on one's understanding of what constitutes the house. Even though no physical element of the house has been changed, you can now see a gazebo out the back window.
There may be an interesting philosophical discussion to be had here about how to define the constituent elements of an object or entity. (Do relations to other objects/entities count?) And I definitely can see the merit in your view. But I don't think it's the "common sense" view that underlies Beamdog's claim that they did not change any of the 'original content' (dialogues or storylines) of BG and BG2.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953955I'm not sure how you get to that conclusion. I just pointed out that the addition of lines due to the introduction of four new characters, requires changing the pre-existing dialogs.
But the
pre-existing dialogues were not changed. New dialogues (new lines) were added.
I mean, I've played both the pre-EE and EE versions of the games. The same dialogues are there intact in both versions. The EE versions have new dialogues (if you interact with or add the new characters).
Again, perhaps we're just arguing past each other here. You think adding Y to X changes X, even if the constituent elements of X are themselves unchanged. That's fine.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;953955Video game Roleplayers tend to be very particular about setting immersion, and a badly written character can break it. This, apparently, was it.
Sure. I'm amazed that a single (minor) sentence can ruin people's immersion or enjoyment of a huge game. It sure didn't do that to me! But others may be more sensitive about these things.
It's very touching, by the way, that you care so deeply about these other "video game role-players", given that you clearly have not played the EE versions of the games and don't seem to be aware of the exact changes between the pre-EE and EE versions of the games.
Launch trailer is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2wXLCIpFRg
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;954002Launch trailer is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2wXLCIpFRg
37% thumbs down already. I guess it's time to get the popcorn.
Quote from: Krimson;95401837% thumbs down already. I guess it's time to get the popcorn.
I am hoping for a 'couch-play' GUI option with an Xbox controller on PC.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;954019I am hoping for a 'couch-play' GUI option with an Xbox controller on PC.
Once I buy a new tablet I'd probably use that.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;954002Launch trailer is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2wXLCIpFRg
Looks awesome.
Glad to hear that Chris Avellone (Lead Designer of the original game) was involved.
Quote from: Krimson;95401837% thumbs down already. I guess it's time to get the popcorn.
Why the huge negativity?
Quote from: Spinachcat;954035Why the huge negativity?
There seems to be a huge crowd of unhinged anti-SJW warriors who hated the one (admittedly rather clumsy) 'transgender' line included in Beamdog's SoD so much that they now feel compelled to complain about Beamdog everywhere...
*sigh*
Quote from: Spinachcat;954035Why the huge negativity?
No idea. I just call 'em as I see them. Shortly after, I got an email from GOG offering it for 30% off which is really tempting.
Quote from: Akrasia;954036There seems to be a huge crowd of unhinged anti-SJW warriors who hated the one (admittedly rather clumsy) 'transgender' line included in Beamdog's SoD so much that they now feel compelled to complain about Beamdog everywhere...
*sigh*
Even if I had noticed that, I probably wouldn't have even remembered. If I was one of those types, I wouldn't be patiently waiting for my copy of Blue Rose to arrive.
EDIT: Then the post sinks in. Is THAT the reason? Panning one of the best CRPGs ever over one character I can't even remember?
Quote from: Krimson;954040Even if I had noticed that, I probably wouldn't have even remembered. If I was one of those types, I wouldn't be patiently waiting for my copy of Blue Rose to arrive.
EDIT: Then the post sinks in. Is THAT the reason? Panning one of the best CRPGs ever over one character I can't even remember?
This is the age of internet tribalism. No matter what you do, the radicals on both sides will cyberbully you.
If you don't want to include women, PoC or LGBT in your game? Then you're a nazi.
If you want to include women, PoC or LGBT in your game? Then you're a filthy SJW.
Quote from: Krimson;95401837% thumbs down already. I guess it's time to get the popcorn.
It's probably because it's being done by Beamdog, the same crew that did Baldur's Gate, I don't think most of the thumbs down have anything to do with the actual content of the game.
Quote from: Krimson;954040Even if I had noticed that, I probably wouldn't have even remembered. If I was one of those types, I wouldn't be patiently waiting for my copy of Blue Rose to arrive.
EDIT: Then the post sinks in. Is THAT the reason? Panning one of the best CRPGs ever over one character I can't even remember?
Yeap, because politics.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;954041This is the age of internet tribalism. No matter what you do, the radicals on both sides will cyberbully you.
If you don't want to include women, PoC or LGBT in your game? Then you're a nazi.
If you want to include women, PoC or LGBT in your game? Then you're a filthy SJW.
Ah well. That will happen, even for non political reasons. Like people who hate on Movies because of prequels or sequels even though the original movies they loved still exist. Not much you can do about that. I'm kind of divided on if I want to play the game again but for different reasons. Yes, GOG offered me 30% off and under Cdn $20 is very enticing. But... Isolinear 2.5D games just annoy me for some reason. It's probably all those years playing NWN, NWN2, KOTOR and KOTOR2. I got used to playing using 3D models, and learning how to make skins for Knights of the Old Republic probably didn't help. :D But for some reason, looking at an isolinear environment just annoys me.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;954050It's probably because it's being done by Beamdog, the same crew that did Baldur's Gate, I don't think most of the thumbs down have anything to do with the actual content of the game.
That was actually my first thought. I remember waiting for the Android version of Baldur's Gate to come out, and waiting and waiting. When it did come out, I couldn't be bothered. Still there is a chance it could be good. I'm REALLY tempted to preorder because GOG sent me an email for 30% off, but part of me is still skeptical. Oh and the aforementioned not liking isolinear 2.5D games thing. :D
Quote from: Krimson;954053That was actually my first thought. I remember waiting for the Android version of Baldur's Gate to come out, and waiting and waiting. When it did come out, I couldn't be bothered. Still there is a chance it could be good. I'm REALLY tempted to preorder because GOG sent me an email for 30% off, but part of me is still skeptical. Oh and the aforementioned not liking isolinear 2.5D games thing. :D
For me, I'm boycotting the game, and have been for decades. (Yes, yes, I know it doesn't actually do anything except make me feel good.) I didn't care for what they did the characters in BG2, by caving into Player preferences (Most players killed off Dynaheir because they couldn't understand how to play RPGs. And I was forced to have Jahira the bitchy Druidess as a girlfriend, because... I don't know why they killed her husband off, nor why they actually liked her) so, I won't play it, nor any Baldur's Gate game ever again.
And again, it's a ME thing, no one else has to agree. In fact, I'm pretty sure most people think I'm both crazy and stupid, and I'm OK with this.
Quote from: Akrasia;954036There seems to be a huge crowd of unhinged anti-SJW warriors who hated the one (admittedly rather clumsy) 'transgender' line included in Beamdog's SoD so much that they now feel compelled to complain about Beamdog everywhere...
From what I remember, it was a lot more than that one line.
Initially, the writer of
Siege of Dragonspear took a swipe at
Baldur's Gate on account of its sexism and suggested that it was up to her to correct that in the add-on, which she followed up with something pointlessly antagonistic like, "If people don't like it, too bad."
That generated a lot of ill will before anyone even got a chance to play the add-on, and it guaranteed that a lot of people were going to go over it with a fine tooth comb and interpret anything that looked like it might be pushing an agenda in the most ungenerous way possible. That impulse seemed to coalesce around the poorly written trans character, but I vaguely remember complaints about the player being chided for mansplaining and racism, too. Then there was also a joke that seemed to be baiting Gamergate, which only made the whole situation worse.
Once the controversy erupted, the add-on's writer wrote that she didn't care if her attempts to insert diverse characters into her games came across as forced and that not only was she proud to be an SJW but that she intended to continue making "social justice games" (which, if I recall correctly, was the actual phrasing she used).
Compounding the problem, the game shipped with broken multiplayer and numerous other bugs. The developer claimed that the bad user reviews were a result of the presence of a minor trans character and a Gamergate joke and asked players for good reviews to balance them out. A developer asking for good reviews would be bad enough, but given that there were a lot of complaints about how buggy the game was, it looked worse.
None of this is intended as support of people who are already giving the game bad reviews to hurt Beamdog. (I'm glad an Enhanced Edition of
Planescape: Torment will be available, and I'll be buying it.) However, the rollout of
Siege of Dragonspear was a debacle that turned off a lot of people who wouldn't necessarily have a problem with trans characters.
Quote from: The Scythian;954215Then there was also a joke that seemed to be baiting Gamergate, which only made the whole situation worse.
They put that line in fan-favorite Minsc's mouth, and the blowback from all sides was bad enough they removed it.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;954227They put that line in fan-favorite Minsc's mouth, and the blowback from all sides was bad enough they removed it.
Oh man, I remember that. I can understand why they got a blow back.
Quote from: The Scythian;954215However, the rollout of Siege of Dragonspear was a debacle that turned off a lot of people who wouldn't necessarily have a problem with trans characters.
Huh. By the time I played through SoD it was working fine, and I very much enjoyed it. It's comparable (IMO) to
Throne of Bhaal, i.e., somewhat linear plot-wise, and not as grand in scope to the original
Baldur's Gate or
Shadows of Amn, but still a fun D&D adventure overall. Pity SoD suffered from such a buggy and 'stormy' rollout. (Aside from the one transgender line, I didn't notice any "in-your-face" SJW stuff myself, but then I didn't have the 'new' Safana in my party...)