Quote from: PGiverty:hatsoff:

I think you are conflating Forge theory (which was never about marketing) with what IPR does to sell games. Certain styles of marketing emerged from the Forge which weren't necessarily original, but that was not what the theory was about.

Respectfully - I don't think it's all that wrongheaded to conflate them.  While you might not be aligned with it, per se, it certainly all carries the same swagger.

I think that the theory is used as a marketing tool.  I'm not saying that IPR uses theory as a marketing tool.  I do think that to say the two are so separate is, in my not-so-well-informed opinion, is a bit of a stretch - but I'm open to other perspectives on that particular point.

And marketing tool is actually the most forgiving read I can possibly give to Forge theory. If it's not that, the alternatives are far worse/far more insulting.

And I think the reason they get conflated, now that I ponder it, is that they contain bits and pieces of the same aesthetic (I think I'm using that term correctly).  That is, there's this big majority out there, either gamers or the companies making the games they play - how do we differentiate ourselves from them? While you are stating that your method was different, and I'm not one to argue that, I can tell you that the perception is that it's all one big mish mash - and so you get caught up in it. And perception is often reality, as a wise friend once told me.

Personally? And it's just my stupid little 2 cents? I'd disavow the Theory and it's proponents in the most vocal and public of ways - like you did here. Make sure everyone understands the IPR != Forge. If you've already done that - well - ignore the ramblings of an old man.

Oh...and take "revolution" out - it's pretentious. :eek:

Quote from: TonyLBDude, WTF? :mad:   Sett's trying to express the things that have gotten under his skin about how people talk about their games, and hopefully even give some advice on how folks could annoy him less in future ... and you come in with a whole "People are so stooooopid" snark, rather than trying to listen?  Don't be a dick!

I haven't read the last three pages, that's just the overall feeling I got wading through this thread of "uh-huh, nuh-uh" back and forth BS. I have no idea what Sett said, and the post wasn't directed at any specific person.

Please try, as you frequently urged Pundit to do, to read what I wrote instead of your preconceptions of what I wrote.

Are you denying that people have been stupid in this entire Forge vs. Mainstream debacle?

Quote from: James J SkachI think that the theory is used as a marketing tool.  I'm not saying that IPR uses theory as a marketing tool.  I do think that to say the two are so separate is, in my not-so-well-informed opinion, is a bit of a stretch - but I'm open to other perspectives on that particular point.

And marketing tool is actually the most forgiving read I can possibly give to Forge theory. If it's not that, the alternatives are far worse/far more insulting.

It is quite possibly being used as a marketing tool now, but it wasn't written that way from what I can tell. I'm afraid you might have to look to your alternative interpretations. I agree with your view as to why the conflation occurs.

Quote from: James J SkachPersonally? And it's just my stupid little 2 cents? I'd disavow the Theory and it's proponents in the most vocal and public of ways - like you did here. Make sure everyone understands the IPR != Forge. If you've already done that - well - ignore the ramblings of an old man.

If it was anything to do with me, I would change the "revolution", bit but I'm a customer. I don't like the whole communist angle. There is overlap between the Forge and IPR, in that the top Forge-inspired publishers, so I'd guess they'd have to be careful about distancing themselves too much - it might hurt their bottom line, but signing up a big d20 publisher would probably help their cause in this respect.

The plethora of snack-sized indie games with a very similar look and aesthetic is getting a bit overwhelming. Something new would help.

Quote from: TonyLBDude, WTF? :mad:   Sett's trying to express the things that have gotten under his skin about how people talk about their games, and hopefully even give some advice on how folks could annoy him less in future ... and you come in with a whole "People are so stooooopid" snark, rather than trying to listen?  Don't be a dick!

Don't be a dick ! Well shit Tony, maybe you need to be called a bitch before things sink in. Guess you haven't been paying attention when folks talk in a reasonable manner about what bothers them about theory - folks like Elliot Willen, James Skachs, -E...fuck even JimBob. No, you need a muddled thinking nutjob who himself is the very definition of SWINE to make you understand what's troubling him. This is the kind of bullshit that bothers me - not that you care - but whatever man, Jesus, don't be a dick indeed.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: James J SkachOh...and take "revolution" out - it's pretentious. :eek:

www indiepresshotmilf18yearbigtitsbukkakemidgetfiesta com was already taken. What else were they supposed to do? :confused:

-Andy

EDIT: Misspelled "bukkake".

I have to say, this whole thing is getting old. Too much wasted screentime.

As I said in another thread, Pundy should reboot the rpgsite, take a leaf from Andy K, and make it by invitation/application only.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI have to say, this whole thing is getting old. Too much wasted screentime.

As I said in another thread, Pundy should reboot the rpgsite, take a leaf from Andy K, and make it by invitation/application only.

Whenever people say this, my first reaction is always:

"It would be interesting to see your list..."

Quote from: James J SkachWhenever people say this, my first reaction is always:

"It would be interesting to see your list..."

Oh, mine would be like 95% of current user base. Doesn't take much to clean up the place, see. Not much at all.

Quote from: Andy Kwww indiepresshotmilf18yearbigtitsbukkakemidgetfiesta com was already taken. What else were they supposed to do? :confused:

-Andy

EDIT: Misspelled "bukkake".

Is that the website you were surfing when they snapped that pic for your avatar?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityOh, mine would be like 95% of current user base. Doesn't take much to clean up the place, see. Not much at all.

Who would you vote off the island?

Quote from: James McMurrayWho would you vote off the island?

James, I'm just a regular member, not a decision maker. Publishing my list would only produce what this site has way too much of already: inconsequential flamewar negativity that leads nowhere.

And that's precisely what I'd like to get rid of: Foci of unproductive negativity. People who use this site as a platform. People who keep Pundy, Sett & al. from positive, productive thinking, and in doing so get free advertising space.

You think it's other peoples' fault that the folks that focus on "the war" aren't being "positive and productive?"

And you don't think that openly stating that you believe some people don't deserve to be here is inconsequential negativity that leads nowhere?

Quote from: James McMurrayYou think it's other peoples' fault that the folks that focus on "the war" aren't being "positive and productive?"

I think Pundit could be more positive and productive if there was nobody on the board that he thought of as Swine.  He seems to think much more clearly when he's talking only with people he respects.  I don't know that talking about whose "fault" that is will lead anywhere interesting or helpful.

After I wrote this:

Quote from: TonyLBNow, see, that's one of the things I value about the RPGSite.  People feel comfortable (specifically comfortable talking to me) here in ways that they wouldn't feel comfortable talking elsewhere.  The fact that I believe they'd be safe in any venue doesn't really matter to their comfort.  They feel that they're safe here.  That's cool.

I thought to myself "But hey, Tony, wouldn't they feel even safer if you weren't here at all?"  And yeah, some folks probably would ... but I wouldn't get to talk to them, so it wouldn't much matter to me.

It's selfish of me, but I'm personally glad that Pundit decided not to make this a gated community.

Quote from: TonyLBIt's selfish of me, but I'm personally glad that Pundit decided not to make this a gated community.

So, Tony... in your opinion and terminology, should storygames be open to all, or should people continue to want to feel safe there?

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo, Tony... in your opinion and terminology, should storygames be open to all, or should people continue to want to feel safe there?

In my opinion it should be open to all, and I've said so to Andy.

Now I understand where Andy's coming from:  Even the most cursory of human checks keeps a tremendous number of spammers out of the system, and that makes it a much more manageable place for him to maintain and moderate.  I don't know whether he ever turns people away for their attitudes, but the vibe I've gotten from his discussions is that's not something he'd be at all comfortable with, so if it happens I'd assume it's a rarity.  There's a balance there between the amount of effort he's willing to put in (particularly maintaining anti-spam measures) and how he feels about subjecting people to a check.

But the simple fact that a check exists clearly raises the bar on how bold people have to be before they drop by and visit, and I think that's a damn shame.  It's easy for me to be casual about an investment of Andy's time and effort, but in his place I think I'd make it 100% open-door.