QuoteI'm not sure why people are getting so worked up about it.

Because they subvert and poison our online experience with their "creative agenda". Apart from that, all you say is spot on.

EDIT: Tough sometimes I get the feeling the online culture war is already won, and we are shooting at cripples in full retreat. The forge is basically dead, and no new obnoxious game marketing in quite some while. RPG.Net lies in moral shambles, and the Forge diapora is also pretty dead. GermForgers are abandoning the cause, so maybe, maybe, that thing has run it´s course and we will live happily ever after feasting on their graves.

Quote from: SettembriniTough sometimes I get the feeling the online culture war is already won, and we are shooting at cripples in full retreat.

This looks so funny from my point of view. :heh:

Yeah ... people are getting along better, and not stepping on each other's toes quite as often.  The (silly) line-drawing and side-picking and deliberate isolation is opening up into a more positive, tolerant and interconnected community.

I love the notion that the hardened warriors (of all ideological persuasions) see this as proving that their side has "won."  That's fine.  If that helps them to stop wounding themselves and barking battle slogans, that is just fine with me.

Quote from: SettembriniBecause they subvert and poison our online experience with their "creative agenda". Apart from that, all you say is spot on.

EDIT: Tough sometimes I get the feeling the online culture war is already won, and we are shooting at cripples in full retreat. The forge is basically dead, and no new obnoxious game marketing in quite some while. RPG.Net lies in moral shambles, and the Forge diapora is also pretty dead. GermForgers are abandoning the cause, so maybe, maybe, that thing has run it´s course and we will live happily ever after feasting on their graves.

This is childish, even for you Sett.

Regards,
David R

Quoteine-drawing and side-picking and deliberate isolation is opening up into a more positive, tolerant and interconnected community.

Huh? It was your side that started it, heck even when noone was paying attention!
We were happy without you. I shit on interconnection with a hobby I don´t care for. How about interconnecting with combat shooters or model train fans?? Aren´t they marginalized in RPG fandom? Maybe we should have a "combat shooting revolution" or a "Steam Engine Extravaganza", so these hobbies feel invited to ours too?

EDIT: Obviously, if both sides think they have won, we must fight harder until you guys are driven out. I had a soft moment, I digress.

Quote from: PGivertyMy guess would be simply that IPR is simply trying to differentiate themselves in the market. There are thousands of d20 games and supplements, and plenty of places to buy them. I'd guess that as both the founders released d20 games they don't have anything against them at all - it's probably just for commercial reasons that they don't stock that many. As to the reason that non-d20 games sell better there; it's simply the nature of their market niche. It's the customers who make the best sellers lists what they are.

Yeah.  I had something like this written up, but he says it better.

I'd just add that IPR isn't only competing with other D20 outlets for customers, but also for designers.  An awful lot of the big name sale-over-internet outfits have contracts that push hard for exclusivity.  Designers can't (usually) just sell through every channel.  They're forced to choose.  If you're a new D20 publisher comparing RPGNow and IPR to see what they have to offer you ... well ... .

Simple fact is, it's not that IPR doesn't want to stock and sell more D20 products.  Hell, the percentage for selling and shipping a D20 product spends just the same as any other money!  It's that other companies are beating the pants off them in that market, securing more customers and more designers in a self-reinforcing cycle that's awful hard to break.

So praytell: Which d20 designer did IPR ask to cooperate that said he doesn´t want to?

Some names, please.

Quote from: SettembriniI shit on interconnection with a hobby I don´t care for.

Really?  I don't.  Some very interesting people have hobbies different from mine.  I sure don't dismiss the fun of connecting with those people ... and often they bring insights that turn out to be surprisingly relevant to my hobby.

Quote from: SettembriniHow about interconnecting with combat shooters or model train fans??

Oooh!  That'd be cool!  Man, I wonder what you could do, combining Dwarven Forge mini sets with some of the outdoor shit those model train fellows get up to.  You could, like, actually build the entrance to the Tomb of Horrors, and then have people pass from the exterior landscape into the cramped interior.

Oh MAN!  I don't have enough money to be having these thoughts!

Quote from: SettembriniSo praytell: Which d20 designer did IPR ask to cooperate that said he doesn´t want to?

Some names, please.

Beats me.  I'll go email Brennan and get back to you, 'kay?

You say that now. But you´re openness and inclusive posture breaks down when one looks at a what you guys actually did:

Forger evangelizing and hard selling of NARR-based Thematic Games. I haven´t seen a model train-inclusion thread on Story-Games or the Forge.
because there is none.

Hypocrit.
You are (/come off as) a false guy, Tony, and you don´t even notice. Because you really, really think you are so decent and open. When in fact: you are just oblivious to your own near-sightedness and bias.

And your likes make me sick. You´re full of self-righteosness and try to hide your true colours. Your plans of action are opposite to your talk. Maybe it´s because you are US-american and still caught in this super-lame politeness we-all-can-get-along-together bullshit.

I´m done with it. You guys are either incredibly naive and politically immature, or hypocrits and scheming liars. In both cases, I´m not interested wasting time on debates with people who don´t even acknowledge the fact that a debate is going on.

I would like to point out in passing that I have Settembrini and Tony agreeing over something I said.

Somewhere, in the distance, there's the sound of a grave opening and then the first of seven trumpets.

I'd say Settembrini massively overestimates the impact that indie designers have on the hobby, and Tony massively underestimates the irritation that a few prententious people can cause, even if they have no tangible impact whatsoever on the playing patterns of the vast majority of gamers. The indie games designers are very open and honest about their sales, and if they've sold a thousand copies of something they are very, very pleased. That is absolutely nothing at all. Mongoose sold something like 60,000 of B5 alone.

Set, other than posting stuff you don't like on other parts of the internet, how have these people impacted your enjoyment of gaming?  Surely if people look down on you it's best to ignore them or ridicule them rather than take them so seriously?

Quote from: SettembriniYou are (/come off as) a false guy, Tony, and you don´t even notice. Because you really, really think you are so decent and open. When in fact: you are just oblivious to your own near-sightedness and bias.

Shrug.  Could be true.  I wouldn't know, right?  So I'm not going to spend time worrying about it.  I'm going to say what I think I believe, and if it turns out that I actually secretly believe something else ... well then, I'll have been wrong.  Wouldn't be the first time, probably wouldn't be the last (unless, like, I get hit by a beer truck or something).

I have to apologize:

It was wrong to attack US-debate culture. If there´s a debate culture that is touchy-feely and hypocritical, it´s not the Anglophone model. German debate culture regarding RPGs is thoroughly fucked up by group-huggers.
So Kudos to the Anglophone clash of arguments. Kudos to Micheal Moore, Ann Coulter, Steven Colbert and the likes to keep this style alive and popular with the majority.

@Tony: I´d be seriously interested in the names of d20 designers that were contacted by IPR. It would be greatly appreciated. And you know what? Present facts and I will be convinced. If you back that up what you alluded to, I´ll be a staunch defender of the IPR as a valid hobby-wide and non-partisan endeavour.

QuoteSet, other than posting stuff you don't like on other parts of the internet, how have these people impacted your enjoyment of gaming? Surely if people look down on you it's best to ignore them or ridicule them rather than take them so seriously?

Several things. All are irrelevant at the global scale, but matter to me.

1) they invaded and fucked up RPG.Net

2) they poisoned any theoretical reflection about RPGs; they gave reflection a bad name

3) they invaded the existing German indie scene, and overcrowded it with noise. Regular homebrews are nonexistant now, as they are laughed away and criticized to death with debate weapons from the Forge.

4) They concentrate on Thematic Games but claim to have a theory on all RPGing, whereas all they have is a model for the creation and reflection upon Thematic Games

5) They come to this place, the most Forger-unfriendly site on the planet, to fight the last Lighthouses of sensibility and good taste, all the while saying they ar enot on a mission

6) They gave people I think are annoying wisecracks to start with (Georgios, a guy I happen to know) rhetorical ammunition that is stale and trite by now, but backed up by their own quotation-circle.

7) They fucked up the sense of perspective for many unsuspecting uninformed German gamers (There are shitheads who think GenCon Indy is actually Indie-GenCon!)

They alienated many people who don´t want to have anything to do with "innovative systems" anymore. While I could live with that, I´m  just intellectual enough to see that this is actually not a good thing.

Sure it´s all only online and irrelevant .
So am I.

Quote from: Settembrini@Tony: I´d be seriously interested in the names of d20 designers that were contacted by IPR. It would be greatly appreciated.

Well, I talked with Brennan and it turns out I was wrong ... he hasn't approached any D20 folks.  In fact, it seems that my whole image of him as out hunting for publishers is an artifact of when I joined (i.e. before he had anyone) and that he doesn't do much proactive hunting any more.  People apparently come to him now.  Wierd.

I agree with you that's discouraging news.  I'd rather we were more actively inclusive than that

That having been said, Brennan also said that he'd like to benefit from the interest here in the topic:  He's a bit overwhelmed by the sheer number of D20 independent publishers out there, but if folks (like you folks!) who have more in-depth knowledge can provide a short-list of providers that deliver quality D20 product, Brennan will rustle up their contact info and make some recruiting calls, see if we can get some more publishers on the IPR bandwagon.

So I made a separate thread, and I hope it'll bear fruit.  In the meantime:  I was wrong ... he hasn't been turned down by D20 folks.  That will have to come with time, I suppose

As far as sales figures go, the state of our hobby is not so good. Indie designers have a right to crow about selling 1-2000 copies of their game, given that there has only been one game (Exalted) published by anyone since 2000 which was not either (a) a new edition of a previously existing game or (b) a licensed property that sold more than 5000 copies.

RPGs are not selling in the numbers they used to.

This has nothing to do with the quality of games, ideology, etc. If you're a designer right now, selling your own stuff and marketing it yourself, and you sell 1-2 thousand copies, you have a right to be proud of that. This has nothing to do with playstyle or gaming theory, it's just market reality.