QuoteAn alibi in what way?

Did you read my post upthread? You know very well what this is about.

I´ve had enough of your obnoxious ways.
Fuck off with your hypocritical wisecrackery.

Thanks for giving proof to all allegations.

Quote from: SettembriniAre you stupid?
You have a bestsellers list on your page. Don´t you know?

I was, rather obviously, referring to your assertion that nobody wishes to buy D20 products from the IPR website. It was in relation to this that I asked the question regarding sales figures.

No, not stupid.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: SettembriniDid you read my post upthread? You know very well what this is about.

I´ve had enough of your obnoxious ways.
Fuck off with your hypocritical wisecrackery.

Thanks for giving proof to all allegations.

Er...ok. Have it your way. I choose not see things as a black & white, them versus us dichotomy on gaming. You seem to have such a view, therefore I think you are quite right that there is no further opportunity for discussion.

Cheers
Malcolm

QuoteOh noes! We used the term 'like minded'! You are choosing to make a particular semantic inference about a choice of words on our website.

When you say like minded, and I take a look a the games and presentation, it´s pretty obvious.

Or where you lying when you said like-minded?

See, I can play these Forger debating tactics too.

QuoteI choose not see things as a black & white, them versus us dichotomy on gaming.

Liar.

You just brought up D20 as a proof of your tolerance. That inherintly acknowledges the huge gap.

These words taste foul, like a spoiled lump of cheese dipped in industrial lubricant.

But Sett has a point, re: d20 as alibi.

Quote from: SettembriniWhen you say like minded, and I take a look a the games and presentation, it´s pretty obvious.

Or where you lying when you said like-minded?

See, I can play these Forger debating tactics too.

As I said in my last post, you're quite right that we should not continue this discussion. You are seeing evil where there is no evil. Some games that are talked about on the CE site are very influenced by theory (including that which has stemmed from the Forge), some are not. And there is a broad spectrum in between. There is no hard dividing line.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: SettembriniLiar.

You just brought up D20 as a proof of your tolerance. That inherintly acknowledges the huge gap.

Hmmm, calling someone a liar is a big accusation to make. I'm now going to stop talking to you.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: Christmas ApeThese words taste foul, like a spoiled lump of cheese dipped in industrial lubricant.

But Sett has a point, re: d20 as alibi.

I would respectfully disagree. Some of the first stuff available through IPR was D20 (Brennan, a co founder of the site, wrote the D20 'Bulldogs!' SF setting). I really don't think it is there as an alibi in any way.

Cheers
Malcolm

...and he does it again.
Just the pure mentioning of d20 is proof of his open-ness. :rolleyes:

Why in Hell couldn´t a d20 game be Thematic? Why couldn´t a d20 supplement be Forger-derived Swine product?

No it´s d20, that says it all...:rolleyes:

It´s a blanko-checque, a pure alibi.

QuoteHmmm, calling someone a liar is a big accusation to make. I'm now going to stop talking to you

Oh I´m sure you are generally honest. But in this particular case you aren´t syying the truth, knowingly. We call that "lying".

All the more, you come unto this thread, not to participate generally, but to fight the war, to fight me. Your backing away now with the excuse of civility is lame and weak. Fitting for the likes of your Movement.

If you were a regular poster, you would be right, I´m overly hostile to you. But you aren´t. You came here for the war, to promote the ridiculous idea that there´s no overarching promotion and connection of like-minded people.
And failed miserably, in fact your presence is proof of the very concept of Indie-Forgers as a Movement. And that is what we were talking about:

There´s a movement with clear goals and ideology.
And we have given them a name.
You can be against that, but you cannot make facts go away at your convenience.

 actio = reactio.

Settembrini,

Would I be correct in saying that you think that IPR has a deliberate policy of having some d20 products as a fig leaf to make them look more inclusive?

I would differentiate:

How the d20 products came unto their list: I don´t have a clue. Could be all kinds of reasons. Pundit would surely sense conspiracy right here. I think there can be all kinds of strange goings that deliver that result

BUT:
After the handful of d20 and OGL products found their home there, it was used as a fig leaf. Definitely and in this very thread.
And the usage of d20/OGL as a fig leaf, defensive argument and "token women" is annoying and dishonest. It also invalidates all the good reasons that might exist for Dawnign Star being sold through IPR and the Forge booth.

All the more: The usage as a fig leaf clearly shows that there´s cleavages and gaps in the gaming community. And it was the mission of Tony and now malcolm to make us believe these cleavages didn´t exist.

Quote from: SettembriniI would differentiate:
BUT:
After the handful of d20 and OGL products found their home there, it was used as a fig leaf. Definitely and in this very thread.
And the usage of d20/OGL as a fig leaf, defensive argument and "token women" is annoying and dishonest. It also invalidates all the good reasons that might exist for Dawnign Star being sold through IPR and the Forge booth.

All the more: The usage as a fig leaf clearly shows that there´s cleavages and gaps in the gaming community. And it was the mission of Tony and now malcolm to make us believe these cleavages didn´t exist.

My guess would be simply that IPR is simply trying to differentiate themselves in the market. There are thousands of d20 games and supplements, and plenty of places to buy them. I'd guess that as both the founders released d20 games they don't have anything against them at all - it's probably just for commercial reasons that they don't stock that many. As to the reason that non-d20 games sell better there; it's simply the nature of their market niche. It's the customers who make the best sellers lists what they are.

In any case, games of this nature are a tiny, tiny fraction of the entire market, and are really no commercial threat to the great mass of gamers out there. They are growing and growing, but boutique micro-games will eventually reach saturation point in the same way d20 supplements have. The first sign - it's beyond possible to own every indie game. They are simply not a threat to D&D and d20, and I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up about it. I'd be very surprised if every single publisher on IPR combined in a month sold more than 5% of the numbers of a single D&D release.

Pretentious indie film makers have a tiny audience too, but Hollywood doesn't go to war against them. I think you are perhaps overreacting a little.

Quote from: PGivertyI think you are perhaps overreacting a little.

A little? :eek:

Otherwise, I agree with you.