Anyhow, it´s all proof of the Fact that the Forge IS a movement. Surely there are sub-divisions and levels of engagement in it. There might be communist and libertarian platforms in within that movement, dishing it out internally. But it´s crystal clear it´s a movement with a political-ideological agenda.

And it´s only logical that a movement that wants to change stuff experiences resentment and defensive behaviour.

And it´s only logical, if that movement is decorating itself with certain aesthetic qualities (Indie Press Revolution, it doesn´t get more obvious than that), then there will be an aesthetic counter-label:

Swine.

And I´m really puzzled that any intelligent person can argue against that. Even if you favour one of the sides, one must accept that these things exist.
People are called "Rednecks", no?
People are called "Yankees", no?

It´s the same stuff. Argueing against that was the single stupidmost thing to start a debate about.

EDIT: Especially if your last line of defense is: "But see, there is no race! I have black friends, mexican friends and white friends! See, there is no division!"

Quote from: SettembriniAnd it´s only logical that a movement that wants to change stuff experiences resentment and defensive behaviour.

And it´s only logical, if that movement is decorating itself with certain aesthetic qualities (Indie Press Revolution, it doesn´t get more obvious than that), then there will be an aesthetic counter-label:

Swine.

You mean the ill defined counter label which describes your behaviour/agenda as well?

QuoteAnd I´m really puzzled that any intelligent person can argue against that. Even if you favour one of the sides, one must accept that these things exist.
People are called "Rednecks", no?
People are called "Yankees", no?

:raise:  

QuoteIt´s the same stuff. Argueing against that was the single stupidmost thing to start a debate about.

You know something Sett, can you provide any evidence that the indie press...no wait..your enemies have had any affect on the hobby. Edit : Besides hurt feelings.

QuoteEDIT: Especially if your last line of defense is: "But see, there is no race! I have black friends, mexican friends and white friends! See, there is no division!"

:raise:

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Elliot WilenIrony is dangerous, both because it can be mistaken, and because it allows you to disavow responsibility.

Hello, and welcome to my sig.

Quote from: SettembriniAnyhow, it´s all proof of the Fact that the Forge IS a movement. Surely there are sub-divisions and levels of engagement in it. There might be communist and libertarian platforms in within that movement, dishing it out internally. But it´s crystal clear it´s a movement with a political-ideological agenda.

And it´s only logical that a movement that wants to change stuff experiences resentment and defensive behaviour.

And it´s only logical, if that movement is decorating itself with certain aesthetic qualities (Indie Press Revolution, it doesn´t get more obvious than that), then there will be an aesthetic counter-label:

Swine.

And I´m really puzzled that any intelligent person can argue against that. Even if you favour one of the sides, one must accept that these things exist.
People are called "Rednecks", no?
People are called "Yankees", no?

It´s the same stuff. Argueing against that was the single stupidmost thing to start a debate about.

EDIT: Especially if your last line of defense is: "But see, there is no race! I have black friends, mexican friends and white friends! See, there is no division!"

How do you react to the fact that Indie Press Revolution also sells and promotes D20 and OGL material?

Cheers
Malcolm

I buy it, that is my reaction.

I bought Dawning Star at the Forge booth, although noone could demo it or could tell me much about it. They never ever even had heard of Traveller D20.

So, yes, that stuff exists. And it is marginalized because the Movement gives a fuck about them.


Clearly, though, by saying you also have d20 OGL stuff in the program is fabolous proof of your conscious decision to do so AND of the inherent huge gap that is between Adventure Games and Thematic Games.

Your mentioning it perfectly underlines it´s function as an alibi. Right now you used it as such!

That´s so fucking hypocritical, I can get angry.

Look at your "bestsellers":

  Bestsellers             1.  Spirit of the Century [Print+PDF]
2.  Spirit of the Century
3.  Dogs in the Vineyard
4.  Spirit of the Century [PDF]
5.  AGON
6.  Polaris
7.  The Shab-al-Hiri Roach
8.  Burning Wheel: Revised
9.  Sorcerer
10.  The Dictionary of Mu


So clearly, D20 products are an alibi.

Quote from: SettembriniI buy it, that is my reaction.

I bought Dawning Star at the Forge booth, although noone could demo it or could tell me much about it. They never ever even had heard of Traveller D20.

So, yes, that stuff exists. And it is marginalized because the Movement gives a fuck about them.


Clearly, though, by saying you also have d20 OGL stuff in the program is fabolous proof of your conscious decision to do so AND of the inherent huge gap that is between Adventure Games and Thematic Games.

Your mentioning it perfectly underlines it´s function as an alibi. Right now you used it as such!

No, I asked what your reaction to it was, I presented no opinion on the matter myself.

BTW, if I was on the Forge booth at the time someone asked about Traveller D20, I'd love to have a good old chat about it (i'm a Megatraveller man myself).

Cheers
Malcolm

See?

You´re doing the same as Tony: "I´m not a racist! I know blacks that are friendly!"

Quote from: SettembriniThat´s so fucking hypocritical, I can get angry.

Look at your "bestsellers":

  Bestsellers             1.  Spirit of the Century [Print+PDF]
2.  Spirit of the Century
3.  Dogs in the Vineyard
4.  Spirit of the Century [PDF]
5.  AGON
6.  Polaris
7.  The Shab-al-Hiri Roach
8.  Burning Wheel: Revised
9.  Sorcerer
10.  The Dictionary of Mu


So clearly, D20 products are an alibi.

So, what customers choose to buy in the largest quantities makes the presence of others items an 'alibi' of some kind? An alibi for what, exactly? Indie Press Revolution welcomes small press games of many styles, systems, backgrounds. I fail to see hipocrisy in having on the site well written, excellently produced, quality material that just happens to be for the D20 system. Example: Helios Rising by Justin Jacobsen is an excellent, hugely in depth setting book, a vast volume of information. It's a great piece of work and I'm delighted that my own games are on sale next to it.

Cheers
Malcolm

Quote from: SettembriniSee?

You´re doing the same as Tony: "I´m not a racist! I know blacks that are friendly!"

You are ascribing motivations to me that may be inaccurate, not to say wrong. Please stop it.

Cheers
Malcolm

Well, I´ve never ever encountered a forger who promoted Dawning Star. Is there a thread on story-games about it?

If it´s so great, why doesn´t any of your customers want it?

See, you might be a victim of your customers, who am I to know. I don´t know fuck about you.

But I do know, that IPR is used as an aggressive viral marketing tool for Forger derived Thematic Games. One has to wonder, if IPR was all that "open" why aren´t any of the other Indie people coming aboard.

http://www.yourgamesnow.com/

Why is there no cross-over? Shouldn´t you reference each other and help each other out? But it doesn´t happen.

Because it´s about identity politics and ideology. And as awesome as Dawning Star is, it acts as an alibi. Did so at the Forge booth in Essen, did so in this very thread.

From collective endeavour:

A group of like-minded small publishers, bringing you top quality independent roleplaying games.

So you are like-minded. That´s what I am saying all the time.
And when yu are like-minded, then grow some balls and live with the fact that you are seen as being like-minded.

Don´t be so fucking hypocritical, I could vomit right now.

Quote from: SettembriniWell, I´ve never ever encountered a forger who promoted Dawning Star. Is there a thread on story-games about it?

Hello, I'm Malcolm, nice to meet you. I talked about it to quite a few people at Gen Con last year.

QuoteIf it´s so great, why doesn´t any of your customers want it?

See, you might be a victim of your customers, who am I to know. I don´t know fuck about you.

I assume you are privy to IPR sales figures in order to be able to make such a statement.

QuoteBut I do know, that IPR is used as an aggressive viral marketing tool for Forger derived Thematic Games. One has to wonder, if IPR was all that "open" why aren´t any of the other Indie people coming aboard.

http://www.yourgamesnow.com/

Why is there no cross-over? Shouldn´t you reference each other and help each other out? But it doesn´t happen.

Because it´s about identity politics and ideology. And as awesome as Dawning Star is, it acts as an alibi. Did so at the Forge booth in Essen, did so in this very thread.

An alibi in what way?

Cheers
Malcolm

QuoteI assume you are privy to IPR sales figures in order to be able to make such a statement.

Are you stupid?
You have a bestsellers list on your page. Don´t you know?

Quote from: SettembriniFrom collective endeavour:

A group of like-minded small publishers, bringing you top quality independent roleplaying games.

So you are like-minded. That´s what I am saying all the time.
And when yu are like-minded, then grow some balls and live with the fact that you are seen as being like-minded.

Don´t be so fucking hypocritical, I could vomit right now.

Oh noes! We used the term 'like minded'! You are choosing to make a particular semantic inference about a choice of words on our website.

Like minded: we all want to produce games that we are enthusiastic about and help others produce and enjoy games. We have trade stands at cons, on those stands sit D20 products that, very traditional games, 'indie' games. Go figure.

And if discussing something on the internet makes you want to vomit, you might want to ease back a little there.

Cheers
Malcolm