Eliot asks: " if something's "art", so what?"

Levi endorses it!

That can be taken two ways.

The first way, the way I suspect Eliot means it: is that "even if someone successfully argues/declares a thing to be art, it doesn't make that thing, or that person superior".

To which I agree.

The second way, (the way I kinda suspect Levi is cheering on): "well so what if roleplaying (or certain approved kinds of roleplaying) really is art? How does that hurt anything?"

And to that second thing, I disagree. How does it hurt? Because that second interpretation is actually only an excuse for bigotry and various marketeering schemes that are designed to sell items to our community based on telling us what is and isn't "art" roleplaying. So fuck that second thing, and fuck anyone who advocates it.

And death to the salesmen.

Hey, Abyssal.  Didja miss this bit, several pages back?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI can call an RPG art without blinking.  However, I don't feel that there's any actual value in presenting them as such; it distracts one from thinking about the actual things that RPGs do.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityPardon?

If you're supposed to suppress your critical faculties, it's a sure sign you're not dealing with art. You're dealing with ideology.

Eh, pardon back. It was a rhetorical question. Basically, I agree with you...but I think the word "art" is often deployed for precisely that reason: to cow people into subjecting their values and critical faculties to someone else's.

(That said, I do think there's something to be said for restraining your critical impulses, especially when you're looking at something that's new to you. I can't necessarily speak to judging other people on whether they do this or not, at least not at the moment, but--for me--it helps me find new things to enjoy.)

I'll speak to it. I got's no shame.

No. The vast majority of humanity does not restrain their critical impulses when faced with something new or unfamiliar.

Rabbit, I do know what you mean.

What I'm trying to say here is that art is actually what people hereabouts call "craft" in order to distinguish it from what they wrongly think is art (and which, let's face it, some of them vaguely or not so vaguely resent for that reason).

In other words, art properly understood is simply a bunch of stuff with no immediate utility that's really well-made, whose making took a lot of careful thinking, and whose proper appreciation requires a set of skills that IM extensive E almost everyone can acquire.

Not so different from an RPG, in that sense. Not fundamentally.

But as for capital-A Art: yes, that's either a well-meaning but meaningless honorific title or some ideology fielded to silence discussion, as you say.

Quote from: Elliot WilenEh, pardon back. It was a rhetorical question. Basically, I agree with you...but I think the word "art" is often deployed for precisely that reason: to cow people into subjecting their values and critical faculties to someone else's.

Terminology as a weapon?

There's something to that, to be sure.  But I'm less sure that in our context (people talking about RPGs), that it's used with the kind of intent you mean - that is, I'm less sure that people intend to silence their audience.

The effect still happens, mind, so the way people perceive that intent probably matters very little.

Debating intent is pointless anyway. Unless they tell you (and you believe them) or you're psychic, there's really no way to discern another's intent in an internet discussion. You may think you know it, and you may even be right most of the time, but actual knowledge isn't possible. (general you, not aimed at any particular rabbit and/or turtles)

Quote from: James McMurrayDebating intent is pointless anyway. Unless they tell you (and you believe them) or you're psychic, there's really no way to discern another's intent in an internet discussion. You may think you know it, and you may even be right most of the time, but actual knowledge isn't possible. (general you, not aimed at any particular rabbit and/or turtles)

Fair point.  I rescind the quibble.

Chunky bacon

Quote from: chaosvoyagerChunky bacon

Is that a statement as to intent?

Jesus Pierce, give it a rest.  Everyone knows what he means by Chunky Bacon.

My god, don't try to stir shit up with that old dead horse...

Quote from: James J SkachJesus Pierce, give it a rest.  Everyone knows what he means by Chunky Bacon.

My god, don't try to stir shit up with that old dead horse...

I don't.  Is it like NTL's lemon curry?

Holy Shit - it's a real reference?  I was just goofing with Pierce...

I thought you were being serious.

And so the internet finally collapsed under wave upon wave of confusion.