Which real-world religious structure or pantheon of deities would you use for a world in a fantasy RPG campaign (assuming you had to choose)?
Where the hell do you come up with these? If I found a real-world pantheon usable, i'd use it.
(OK, if waterboarded by Dick Cheney, I'd say indian or finnish, though early greek, with all the anima and household dieties would run a close third. Maybe that's why my pantheon is a such a jumbled, viewed-through-the-imperfect-human eye type of disaster.)
I'd say Norse pantheon, because it is a well known fact that vikings have more fun.
Quote from: Soylent Green;350761I'd say Norse pantheon, because it is a well known fact that vikings have more fun.
Second this. Although even that pantheon is a jumbled mess like all the others; it's not even entirely clear who the head deity is.
Quote from: The Worid;350771Second this. Although even that pantheon is a jumbled mess like all the others; it's not even entirely clear who the head deity is.
Well, general consensus would be Odin (or whatever variation of his name you choose) with Thor a close second. I suppose a case could be made for Balder, but most would agree on Odin. Really though any ancient pantheon is going to be a mess. They've all been added to, and combined with, so many times with the interaction of cultures over the years, that they start to overlap quite a bit.
Hindu...maybe some kind of Dune-style melange (no pun intended) of Hindu polytheism and Roman Catholicism
Quote from: Kellri;350796Hindu...maybe some kind of Dune-style melange (no pun intended) of Hindu polytheism and Roman Catholicism
I have a hard time imagining what the hybrid would be like. What would you keep from Hinduism and Catholicism?
Quote from: boulet;350803I have a hard time imagining what the hybrid would be like. What would you keep from Hinduism and Catholicism?
Multi-armed Saints in flying cars dropping nuclear bombs?
Norse or Celtic.
In seriousness, I'd go straight-up Greek or Roman - but I repeat myself. I particularly like the "household gods", gods of crossroads, and other such "small gods" concepts as well.
All of them. Each culture ought to have a pantheon if they are pantheistic. Of course direct action by the gods would be problematic, with so many of them running around, so I would solve it by saying gods don't intervene directly. The result would look a lot like... ummm... earth.
-clash
Added: And this totally proves that I don't understand Fantasy at all. Q.E.D.
Fuck "Pantheons". The whole idea of "pantheon" these days seems to do nothing but confuse modern gamers (at least those without religious-related advanced education) as to how religion actually worked back in pagan cultures.
For starters, in almost any culture with a variety of deities, you didn't have these clear-cut deities that were only about "one thing", or even about related multiple things in any way that made sense. A given deity could be the god of healing, music and the sun. Another could be the god of storms, kings and taking oaths. A third could be goddess of warriors, knowledge, wisdom and legal documents.
You also had particular gods that were favoured by certain cities. And gods that belonged to a given tribe. And demigods that were just your family's. But you pretty much worshipped ALL the gods, whenever necessary.
So if I were to say how would I do pagan deities in a fantasy game, I'd say that I'd do it the way that Romans did: absolutely any fucking thing goes. There are thousands of gods, though many of them are pretty much considered to be different names for the same dude, and there are lots of regional variations. And you worshipped all these shitloads, at different times, even if there were some that you kept coming back to more often than others.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;350838Fuck "Pantheons". The whole idea of "pantheon" these days seems to do nothing but confuse modern gamers (at least those without religious-related advanced education) as to how religion actually worked back in pagan cultures.
For starters, in almost any culture with a variety of deities, you didn't have these clear-cut deities that were only about "one thing", or even about related multiple things in any way that made sense. A given deity could be the god of healing, music and the sun. Another could be the god of storms, kings and taking oaths. A third could be goddess of warriors, knowledge, wisdom and legal documents.
You also had particular gods that were favoured by certain cities. And gods that belonged to a given tribe. And demigods that were just your family's. But you pretty much worshipped ALL the gods, whenever necessary.
So if I were to say how would I do pagan deities in a fantasy game, I'd say that I'd do it the way that Romans did: absolutely any fucking thing goes. There are thousands of gods, though many of them are pretty much considered to be different names for the same dude, and there are lots of regional variations. And you worshipped all these shitloads, at different times, even if there were some that you kept coming back to more often than others.
RPGPundit
Bingo. Earth.
-clash
Quote from: Hairfoot;350753Which real-world religious structure or pantheon of deities would you use for a world in a fantasy RPG campaign (assuming you had to choose)?
All of them. I'm very fond of the mesoamerican pantheons and the Mosopotamian pantheon for some reason. I like the more primal, dawn-of-time mythologies, myself.
If I were starting fresh, I'd probably go with something South Asian.
My current fantasy game has various godlings of mixed portfolios (some more themed than others), plus tutelary deities of cities, nations, and assorted 'small gods' -- all loosely aligned into several larger and smaller blocs (some having multiple memberships) which are on-again off-again rivals.
In other words, it's kinda like the UN, except with gods instead of nations, and appropriately-themed equivalents of NATO, the EU, the Soviet Bloc, the Unaligned Movement, and so forth. All bound to one another via countless inexplicable treaties, of course. Heaven is mostly paperwork.
No love for the Egyptians? I find the Egyptian pantheon seems to stand apart from the others mentioned because it's extra confusing and not open to interpretation. Is that a common view?
Quote from: RPGPundit;350838For starters, in almost any culture with a variety of deities, you didn't have these clear-cut deities that were only about "one thing", or even about related multiple things in any way that made sense.
....
But you pretty much worshipped ALL the gods, whenever necessary.
...
There are thousands of gods, though many of them are pretty much considered to be different names for the same dude, and there are lots of regional variations. And you worshipped all these shitloads, at different times, even if there were some that you kept coming back to more often than others.
[Citation needed]
[Well, wanted]
Quote from: Werekoala;350808Multi-armed Saints in flying cars dropping nuclear bombs?
Or a pope with an elephant head.
Quote from: Hairfoot;350928Or a pope with an elephant head.
Sign me up.
Quote from: bouletI have a hard time imagining what the hybrid would be like. What would you keep from Hinduism and Catholicism?
I'd keep all the Hindu deities and give them living mortal avatars. I'd pair that with a strong centralized Brahmanic organization based out of Benares with an elephant-headed 'Sri Ganesha' - the current avatar of Ganesh. I'd break off the Bengali Kali cult into a blood sacrificing version of Protestantism. And yeah, I'd throw in a ton of dreadlocked saddhu 'saints'. And it's all in Sanskrit.
Don't forget the flying cars and nukes.
QuoteQuoteThere are thousands of gods, though many of them are pretty much considered to be different names for the same dude, and there are lots of regional variations. And you worshipped all these shitloads, at different times, even if there were some that you kept coming back to more often than others.
[Citation needed]
[Well, wanted]
since i recognize the whole [citation needed] from wikipedia, i will use wikipedia as my source:
Hermes Agoraeus, of the agora
Hermes Acacesius, of Acacus
Hermes Charidotes, giver of charm
Hermes Criophorus, ram-bearer
Hermes Cyllenius, born on Mount Cyllene
Hermes Diaktoros, the messenger
Hermes Dolios, the schemer
Hermes Enagonios, lord of contests
Hermes Enodios, on the road
Hermes Epimelius, keeper of flocks
Hermes Eriounios, luck bringer
Hermes Polygius
Hermes Psychopompos, conveyor of souls
In many civilizations, pantheons tended to grow over time. Deities first worshipped as the patrons of cities or places came to be collected together as empires extended over larger territories. Conquests could lead to the subordination of the elder culture's pantheon to a newer one, as in the Greek Titanomachia, and possibly also the case of the Æsir and Vanir in the Norse mythos. Cultural exchange could lead to "the same" deity being renowned in two places under different names, as with the Greeks, Etruscans, and Romans, and also to the introduction of elements of a "foreign" religion into a local cult, as with Egyptian Osiris worship brought to ancient Greece.
Quote from: Werekoala;351015Don't forget the flying cars and nukes.
More popes!
Quote from: Hairfoot;351035More popes!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_schism
For a professional release use Islam vs Christianity, preferably in a setting where homosexuality is the norm.
The publicity alone would make it worth while. If you could piss enough people off they would be buying copies of your book just to burn it in town squares from Mecca to Austin.
Of course you would need to publish under a pseudonym and chances are there woudl be a fatwa out against you for the next 200 years, but if it introduces a few more folks to the hobby ...
Quote from: jibbajibba;351063If you could piss enough people off they would be buying copies of your book just to burn it in town squares from Mecca to Austin.
Methinks you don't know much about Austin. :)
Quote from: Werekoala;351064Methinks you don't know much about Austin. :)
True just tried to pick a town in Texas :)
Quote from: jibbajibba;351065True just tried to pick a town in Texas :)
All major metropolitan areas in Texas are reliably liberal, you'll no doubt be relieved to know - especially Austin. Hell, Houston elected an openly lesbian mayor a couple of weeks back. So yeah, its not all bible thumpin' and shotguns, despite what people would have you think.
Quote from: IMLegend;350776Well, general consensus would be Odin (or whatever variation of his name you choose) with Thor a close second. I suppose a case could be made for Balder, but most would agree on Odin. Really though any ancient pantheon is going to be a mess. They've all been added to, and combined with, so many times with the interaction of cultures over the years, that they start to overlap quite a bit.
It's more of a contest between Odin and Thor. While the Eddas and other contemporary works, from which most of our information comes, identify Odin as the chief deity, older altars and religious representations show Thor as above Odin. Some scholar attribute this to the later writers playing favorites.
Quote from: The Worid;351071It's more of a contest between Odin and Thor. While the Eddas and other contemporary works, from which most of our information comes, identify Odin as the chief deity, older altars and religious representations show Thor as above Odin. Some scholar attribute this to the later writers playing favorites.
Yeah, the Norse really is a mess, so much of it being an oral tradition as opposed to written. There are even some stories linking Odin and Loki as being two aspects of the same deity. Again, the evolution and combination of different pantheons as cultures rose, fell, and intermingled.
I've got a lot of love for the Egyptian gods as well.
Here is an excellent addition to any Roman Pantheon/personality cult:
(http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20091223.gif) (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1738)
Egyptian for me would be first, especially if I could base the magic system around the different parts of the Egyptian soul.
Norse would be second, probably tied with Celtic.
Classical Greek would be third.
Roman mishmash fourth.
Greek/Roman. Norse is a close second.
I'd "re-skin" the major deities, though (give them new names, basically—they should be used to it).
QuoteFor a professional release use Islam vs Christianity, preferably in a setting where homosexuality is the norm. The publicity alone would make it worth while. If you could piss enough people off they would be buying copies of your book just to burn it in town squares from Mecca to Austin.
Now THAT'S an idea even those Indie games pussies wouldn't touch.
I'd go one step further and posit Judaism as the Dwarven religion, and give them a lesbian female priesthood. Then, I'd take Islam, and make it the cult of choice for humanoids - particularly orcs. Finally, somewhere in the middle of the two would be tricycle-riding Mormon halflings, Rastafarian elves (lembas=the healing of the nation), and finally Cao Daist humans. And no one wears a shirt in church - especially the lesbian priestesses.
(thunderous applause)
Holy shit - now THAT is gonzo. Pundit, take note.
Quote from: Soylent Green;350761I'd say Norse pantheon, because it is a well known fact that vikings have more fun.
Vikings had more fun?
Norse gods only had
days named after them.
Tyr (Tuesday) - Odin/Wotan (Wednesday) - Tor (Thursday) - Frigg/Freya (Friday)
The Roman gods had
months named after them [because they knew how to party!]
January - named after Janus, March - named after Mars, May - named after Maia, the goddess of growth of plants, June - from junius, Latin for the goddess Juno, July - named after Julius Caesar, August - named after Augustus Caesar.
Quote from: Darran;351207Vikings had more fun?
Yup! Vikings have that whole rock'n'roll, counter-culture "last one in Valhalla is a sissy" thing going for them.
But contrast the Greco-Roman pantheon is way too educational to be any fun.
Actually I used to have a t-shirt I bought in Sweden which depicted a bunch of charging cartoon norsemen that said "Vikings had more fun" so that is where the phrase comes from.
Quote from: Soylent Green;351211Yup! Vikings have that whole rock'n'roll, counter-culture "last one in Valhalla is a sissy" thing going for them.
But contrast the Greco-Roman pantheon is way too educational to be any fun.
Actually I used to have a t-shirt I bought in Sweden which depicted a bunch of charging cartoon norsemen that said "Vikings had more fun" so that is where the phrase comes from.
The Romans had month long parties [good for the guests but probably really bad on the slaves] but I would agree that the pantheon is a little on the dry side.
So I will give you that "Vikings had more fun" ;)
Quote from: Darran;351207Norse gods only had days named after them.
Tyr (Tuesday) - Odin/Wotan (Wednesday) - Tor (Thursday) - Frigg/Freya (Friday)
The Roman gods had months named after them [because they knew how to party!]
January - named after Janus, March - named after Mars, May - named after Maia, the goddess of growth of plants, June - from junius, Latin for the goddess Juno, July - named after Julius Caesar, August - named after Augustus Caesar.
I didn't know about the origin of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. I find it fascinating how those pagan roots survived christianization considering how Christian holidays have been a blatant attempt at obfuscating pagan ones.
In French (and other Latin derived languages) the days' etymology comes from Roman Gods' name (alternatively planet names).
Lundi, jour de la lune (Moon, coherent with Germanic names)
Mardi, jour de Mars (Mars... divergence here)
Mercredi, jour de Mercure (Mercury)
Jeudi, jour de Jupiter
Vendredi, jour de Venus
Samedi, as in Sambati dies, day of Shabbat, one from Hebrew! Curiously enough this is the one English day that comes from Latin (day of Saturn) while German Samstag derives from Shabbat...
Dimanche, as in dies Dominicus, day of the Lord. This one the missionaries managed to take over in Latin derived languages, but not so in Germanic ones (day of the Sun).
I just love etymology.
I don't know if Vikings had more fun. They sure knew how to sack a monastery or a town, I'll give you that.
Maybe the Norse gods weren't sissies and lived for the action. I don't find Greek/Roman gods boring or serious though. Take Jupiter/Zeus for instance: the guy was obsessed with adultery and his wife with cursing his lovers and their offspring. Comedy gold! I like that Greek/Roman gods are morally imperfect, that makes for characters I can get attached to. But I guess Norse gods had their temper too.
I think there's more than a little corellation between the fact that Greeks and Romans enjoyed theater and the fact that their pantheons are basically a celestial Soap Opera. Not sure which inspired which, however.
So, it only makes sense that a Viking pantheon would involve fighting and drinking and such.
Hmmm... interesting idea developing...
(starts another thread)
What, no love for the Persian pantheon? That's the go-to pantheon for all your epic good vs. evil needs. Hell, they pretty much wrote the book on "good vs. evil" what with Zoroastrianism and Manicheanism and whatnot.
As for standard issue, pulp-fantasy-informed gaming, I use the same mishmash approach Pundit advocated. I usually feed the PCs with an archetypal name, e.g. the Storm Lord, and it's up to them whether they worship Him in His guise as Thor, or Zeus, or Indra, or Shango, or Karakán.
And of course, no one needs be a devotee of any single god, any more than Catholics have to choose a favored saint to the exclusion of all others.
I've long wanted to use a proto-Indo-Aryan pantheon, à la Zecharia Sitchin's cosmic Sumerian/Brahman/Greek/Norse dozen. In essence, the original deities that inspired the copy-cats in subsequent pantheons. In this sense, Kellri's suggestions of combining Indian gods with Catholic saints might prove a pretty good fit.
!i!
Quote from: boulet;350803I have a hard time imagining what the hybrid would be like. What would you keep from Hinduism and Catholicism?
They both have a major god who is both one and three people.
Quote from: Ian Absentiacombining Indian gods with Catholic saints might prove a pretty good fit.
Yes, and the 'saints' themselves can be basically paragons of certain ideals or professions. These saints are really just roles that certain heroic or not-so-heroic mortals aspire to, are possessed by, or inherit, thereby becoming avatars - living demigods who walk amongst men. Avatars in turn attract followers by siphoning off some of their own 'divinity' (magic) to aid them. The process for becoming an avatar can be rigid or random, and in a fantasy game would be a major end-game goal for a PC.
Importantly for an old-school D&D game, avatars can be slain. Heck, you might become the avatar by killing one or at least enjoy a Highlander-style power surge. For some ideas, look no further than the 1e
Deities & Demigods.
Additionally, you can explain a Catholic-style monotheism paired with a Hindu-style pantheon by drawing a distinction between GOD and the Avatars. GOD, as the Prime Deity, exists beyond space/time and different aspects of GOD's essence were imparted to creation where they recycle endlessly - most notably through the Avatars. All of them have some unique aspect of divinity but they are not the GOD. The Church would recognize GOD, but in practice most worship would revolve around avatars, who offer some actual aid.
You could also explain outsider or evil gods as powerful avatars that rebelled against the natural order of things, magically stole a bit of GOD's mojo, or rival GODS with their own representative avatars (read Lovecraftian horrors).
Quote from: Kellri;351337You like literary people, you like people who write well, you like intellectuals, well why don't you go over there and join them! -Rush Limbaugh
What is the source of this quote? Googling it only brings up dozens of referrals to your signature.
It was a quote from one of his radio programs (I'm NOT a listener BTW) that I came across on a very cool blog Cajun Boy in the City (http://cajunboyinthecity.blogspot.com).
I'm not sure exactly what Limbaugh was referring to in that quote, but I take it to be an endorsement for Canadian citizenship.
Quote from: jibbajibba;351063For a professional release use Islam vs Christianity, preferably in a setting where homosexuality is the norm.
This is
like the coolest idea for a
Blue Rose reboot !
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Kellri;351396It was a quote from one of his radio programs (I'm NOT a listener BTW) that I came across on a very cool blog Cajun Boy in the City (http://cajunboyinthecity.blogspot.com).
I'm not sure exactly what Limbaugh was referring to in that quote, but I take it to be an endorsement for Canadian citizenship.
Just wondering, because I do listen fairly regularly and don't remember him saying anything remotely similar to that. Judging by the contents of the website, though, I'm not surprised.
Thursday, November 06, 2008
-Rush Limbaugh speaking on his radio show, speaking to "moderate" Republicans he refers to as "Democrat-lite" that he wants to cast out of the Republican party.
Quote from: Kellri;351337Yes, and the 'saints' themselves can be basically paragons of certain ideals or professions. These saints are really just roles that certain heroic or not-so-heroic mortals aspire to, are possessed by, or inherit, thereby becoming avatars - living demigods who walk amongst men. Avatars in turn attract followers by siphoning off some of their own 'divinity' (magic) to aid them. The process for becoming an avatar can be rigid or random, and in a fantasy game would be a major end-game goal for a PC.
Anyone seriously interested in pursuing an idea like this, I recommend reading -- no, not
Nobilis -- a side-by-side survey of Zecharia Sitchin's
The 12th Planet with Roger Zelazny's
Lord of Light. I think, between the two of them, they really get at the heart of powerful individual assuming the role of a god.
Similar to this idea, once in a 1e
AD&D game, I asked to play a cleric of a new-found god. Part of my task was proselytising a following for the god, and thereby attaining both higher character level and access to higher level divine spells. The mechanics for a game like we're discussing could follow a similar course, with an eventual and inevitable showdown between entrenched avatar-saints and the up-and-coming rivals.
!i!
Quote from: Kellri;351439Thursday, November 06, 2008
-Rush Limbaugh speaking on his radio show, speaking to "moderate" Republicans he refers to as "Democrat-lite" that he wants to cast out of the Republican party.
If you say so. Still can't find it anywhere except your sig. Not that it matters, of course.
Quote from: Werekoala;351480Not that it matters, of course.
Seemingly it does. Take it to Pundy's ghetto forum.
!i!
Here's the mono/polytheism of my own campaign world of Pelor. The Creator was cold-cocked by an outsider god called the Corruptor leading to creation.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/3041444142_b2712131a2.jpg)
Yeah, really, I'd prefer that we did not continue with the Limbaugh-related political discussion on here, please.
RPGPundit
I had no intention of it. In fact, it was dead until snit-fit got involved for some reason, which has now added 3 more posts about it.
Quote from: Kellri;351554Here's the mono/polytheism of my own campaign world of Pelor. The Creator was cold-cocked by an outsider god called the Corruptor leading to creation.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/3041444142_b2712131a2.jpg)
The Corruptor brings a very gnostic feeling to this illustration. In World of Pelor, is the Creator relegated to all things spiritual and removed from earthy/common matters? Is there an opposition Corruptor = multiple demiurge = polytheistic vs Creator = unique god = monotheism ?
Quote from: Werekoala;351717I had no intention of it. In fact, it was dead until snit-fit got involved for some reason, which has now added 3 more posts about it.
Make that four, poopy-pants. :p
!i!