https://x.com/jondelarroz/status/1878639480271499442
According to Jon Del Arroz on Twitter/X:
QuoteTabletop RPGs has a massive problem with wokeness.
The director of games at Paizo, which makes Pathfinder, the main alternative to Dungeons & Dragons, posted that he doesn't want the Vice President even playing his game.
This company is just as bad as Wizards of the Coast.
From Jason Bulmahn of Piazo:
QuoteIf Vance has played Pathfinder, I want him to send his books back. No space for fascists in our game.
But if fascists DESIGN your games and run your company, you must have plenty of room.
EDIT: He also has pronouns in his Twitter bio.
Paizo is worse than WOC, and from what I can recall has ALWAYS been pretty bad on that particular note (letting their lefty shine bright). Calling Vance a fascist though...I think these folks should at least brush up on political meanings and definitions. I suspect the strong in group preference of actual fascists is severely compromised in Vance's case.
Paizo is a fascist company, run by fascists, their games are written by fascists, and most of their players are friendly to fascism. And they're too stupid to know that they're fascists who support the state using power against people in order to maintain their social order and control over people and bend corporations to state will.
It is galactically stupid from a business standpoint to make tweets like this on X
telling 50% of the US population that they voted for a Fascist is a really bad idea
that being said, I didn't even know Paizo was still around: they have been irrelevant for like 10 years, have seen declining sales, and the Pathfinder Society now fits into a 10x10 room at any given convention these days
I would say that they should sell the IP to someone else, but the game was garbage from the outset, and I don't think it has any value lol
The Paizo line is old news from August of 2024. What makes some guy's three lines on it significant enough for a thread now?
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 13, 2025, 11:00:21 AMThe Paizo line is old news from August of 2024. What makes some guy's three lines on it significant enough for a thread now?
I don't know when the Tweet was made but it only spread recently so that's why it's being noted now.
It's newsworthy because 1) Pathfinder is still the #2 best selling TTRPG out there according places that track such things, and 2) this is far more "gatekeeping" than the accusations Paizo has lobbed at individuals for "gatekeeping". That level of hypocrisy seems worth mentioning, doesn't it?
As a hobbyist third-party designer with way less at stake in entertainment than this guy, I cannot imagine trying to isolate and insult large swaths of the potential consumer audience like this. I want everyone to purchase my products, and I hope everyone enjoys them as they are intended to be enjoyed.
I don't want someone I don't like to like something I like because I have the emotional maturity of a 5 year old!
Grow up, Jason Bulmahn of Piazo.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 13, 2025, 11:00:21 AMThe Paizo line is old news from August of 2024. What makes some guy's three lines on it significant enough for a thread now?
Because I missed it last time. Sorry. Diversity & Dragons weighed in on this too today. It's being talked about in the past 24 hours and because of it, it's the first time I saw the tweet from Piazo.
https://x.com/WeeWheaton/status/1878589334640590910
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 13, 2025, 01:46:49 PMAs a hobbyist third-party designer with way less at stake in entertainment than this guy, I cannot imagine trying to isolate and insult large swaths of the potential consumer audience like this. I want everyone to purchase my products, and I hope everyone enjoys them as they are intended to be enjoyed.
Exactly. I don't care who you are... I want you to buy
Radical High. And after you buy it, if you want to have trans-fascist adventures with it, go all out! 3If you buy my game, I'm not going to Piazo you and demand that you have to do what I say with it.
Yeah, this is months old; I posted about it at the time. Dunno why it's just now picking up the particular traction it's receiving.
I wouldn't want J.D., or anyone else, really, to play Pathfinder or whatever passes for D&D now. These terms are acceptable.
Yeah, this sort of thing is all the rage right now. 'If you're not with us, then you are against us,' attitudes don't sit well with me.
I won't be surprised if Paizo sales drops noticeably because of this.
Also, while I don't care much for Pathfinder because I like efficient, rules lite games, I'll no longer recommend Pathfinder to any new players who ask me purchasing advice.
Quote from: Valatar on January 14, 2025, 06:54:13 AMYeah, this is months old; I posted about it at the time. Dunno why it's just now picking up the particular traction it's receiving.
It's the internet.
It's weird.
And full of Rule34 stuff. I'm not complaining about that part, though. Just being honest.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 14, 2025, 08:40:33 AMI won't be surprised if Paizo sales drops noticeably because of this.
Actually, I rather doubt it affects them at all. They staked out a particular political position years ago and have not deviated from it. People like JD Vance or anyone anywhere close to him on the spectrum are
not their target audience.
Quote from: Valatar on January 14, 2025, 06:54:13 AMYeah, this is months old; I posted about it at the time. Dunno why it's just now picking up the particular traction it's receiving.
It's worse that the guy reposting it is getting all the credit for "bringing it to light" but lots of people brought it up before, just didn't have big names latching on. So it LOOKS like it was hidden until now. It's kind of annoying, although Im' friends with the guy posting it this most recent time, because it's like he's being paraded around and getting all this traction when he really didnt' do anything.
Jason Bulmahn can eat a bag of dicks as far as I'm concerned. He's just another cancerous douche infesting the RPG space. I stopped giving Paizo money years ago when they shat their pants over 'Slavery' and said 'No more slavery in Golarian'. Literally cannot fight against one of the classic D&D bad guys like The Slavelords cause Leftcoast twats think slavery begins and ends with 'Da White Man!' There is a special spot in Hell for Alex Haley.....
Paizo specializes in crunchy D&Dish RPGs.
They also specialize in left coast ideology.
They are big, but they also have a limited appeal. It will catch up with them, eventually.
HAHAHAHHAHA!
Paizo's offical stance: Please ignore our looney employees talking shit online.
LOL, that Paizo response including pronouns ("Xe") and a land acknowledgement is pure gold.
Jason is a male feminist, seems to be just like all male feminists... Or Jessica Price was up to her usual tactics to out him from Paizo.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 15, 2025, 11:57:20 PMJason is a male feminist, seems to be just like all male feminists... Or Jessica Price was up to her usual tactics to out him from Paizo.
He admits that he hit on Price. That alone shows a significant lack of judgment worthy of ostracism. I mean, it's better to be lonely than to dip your wick in that kind of crazy.
I do feel some sympathy for him, though. Imagine being so desperate that Jessica Price seems attractive to you...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 16, 2025, 06:40:35 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 15, 2025, 11:57:20 PMJason is a male feminist, seems to be just like all male feminists... Or Jessica Price was up to her usual tactics to out him from Paizo.
He admits that he hit on Price. That alone shows a significant lack of judgment worthy of ostracism. I mean, it's better to be lonely than to dip your wick in that kind of crazy.
I do feel some sympathy for him, though. Imagine being so desperate that Jessica Price seems attractive to you...
It was the cowgirl hat she wore, Buhlman fell for that. ;)
Quote from: jeff37923 on January 16, 2025, 11:59:57 AMQuote from: Eirikrautha on January 16, 2025, 06:40:35 AMQuote from: GeekyBugle on January 15, 2025, 11:57:20 PMJason is a male feminist, seems to be just like all male feminists... Or Jessica Price was up to her usual tactics to out him from Paizo.
He admits that he hit on Price. That alone shows a significant lack of judgment worthy of ostracism. I mean, it's better to be lonely than to dip your wick in that kind of crazy.
I do feel some sympathy for him, though. Imagine being so desperate that Jessica Price seems attractive to you...
It was the cowgirl hat she wore, Buhlman fell for that. ;)
@ Eirikrautha: I mean, I would rather become a monk than hitting that.
@ Jeff37923: ROTFLMAO.
Snarl words aside like "fascist" and "woke" (yes woke is becoming a meaningless snarl word just like nazi or fascist, admit it.) what actually gets me about this is they assume they are somehow entitled to what happens to the books post-sale or who they are sold to.
that bothers me more than the politics of this stupid twitter rage bait.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 16, 2025, 03:20:56 PMSnarl words aside like "fascist" and "woke" (yes woke is becoming a meaningless snarl word just like nazi or fascist, admit it.) what actually gets me about this is they assume they are somehow entitled to what happens to the books post-sale or who they are sold to.
that bothers me more than the politics of this stupid twitter rage bait.
Ahh, the good ol' Dwarven attitude that the maker is always the owner regardless of the person buying it.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 16, 2025, 03:20:56 PMSnarl words aside like "fascist" and "woke" (yes woke is becoming a meaningless snarl word just like nazi or fascist, admit it.)
While I agree they're both overused, there is are key differences between the two. "Woke" was a term that the side who invented this particular bastardization (of the English language) proudly used to describe themselves and was only turned negative when the ridiculousness of both their positions and especially their actions in real life poisoned the term. The modern mudslinging associated with fascist is exclusively an insult by people against their political opponents and done so in a largely hypocritical manner by the people who ACTUALlY demonstrate most of the ideals of that ideology (authoritarianism, supremacy of the state over individual and political freedom, punishment of any dissent. etc... basically everything except the nationalism that used to accompany it).
Quote from: RNGm on January 17, 2025, 09:21:16 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 16, 2025, 03:20:56 PMSnarl words aside like "fascist" and "woke" (yes woke is becoming a meaningless snarl word just like nazi or fascist, admit it.)
While I agree they're both overused, there is are key differences between the two. "Woke" was a term that the side who invented this particular bastardization (of the English language) proudly used to describe themselves and was only turned negative when the ridiculousness of both their positions and especially their actions in real life poisoned the term. The modern mudslinging associated with fascist is exclusively an insult by people against their political opponents and done so in a largely hypocritical manner by the people who ACTUALlY demonstrate most of the ideals of that ideology (authoritarianism, supremacy of the state over individual and political freedom, punishment of any dissent. etc... basically everything except the nationalism that used to accompany it).
Most people on the right who use this word are unaware nor do they care of the context behind it, to them it just describes everything on the Left they dislike, likewise the mudslinging of facsists it has simply come to mean any political stance I dislike.
Rightoids tactfully thew the term Woke back in the Leftoids face, but the less bright among the rightoids used the term ad nauseam. to the point it's been mostly defanged in the same way fascist has been defanged.
This website could be a microcosm case study of how meaningless the word is.
Also just like Woke was a proud label before being turned on it's head, so was Fascist, Fascist as a word has Roman symbology and connotation (a bundle of sticks) as such many early fascists between the 1920s and 40s would have proudly called themselves such.
Every term will be watered down and misused. The alternative is to stop talking about anything contentious.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 06:51:51 PMEvery term will be watered down and misused. The alternative is to stop talking about anything contentious.
it's not a zero sum game. you can and should moderate and gatekeep your own side. nor is the alternative to throw in the towel. your fox news watching parents should stay in their lane and stop dulling and watering down every tool the Right uses, period.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 07:42:55 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 06:51:51 PMEvery term will be watered down and misused. The alternative is to stop talking about anything contentious.
it's not a zero sum game. you can and should moderate and gatekeep your own side.
Good advice, but I claim no side, so I don't know who I'd moderate or gatekeep.
Plus there's also the issue of the sides trying to obscure issues by pretending the labels are the problem, not the topics people bring up.
Quotenor is the alternative to throw in the towel. your fox news watching parents should stay in their lane and stop dulling and watering down every tool the Right uses, period.
Nobody should "stay in their lane". That's authoritarian social manipulation to silence dissent.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 10:29:21 PMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 07:42:55 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 06:51:51 PMEvery term will be watered down and misused. The alternative is to stop talking about anything contentious.
it's not a zero sum game. you can and should moderate and gatekeep your own side.
Good advice, but I claim no side, so I don't know who I'd moderate or gatekeep.
Plus there's also the issue of the sides trying to obscure issues by pretending the labels are the problem, not the topics people bring up.
Quotenor is the alternative to throw in the towel. your fox news watching parents should stay in their lane and stop dulling and watering down every tool the Right uses, period.
Nobody should "stay in their lane". That's authoritarian social manipulation to silence dissent.
1. using sloppy labels does far more damage to obscure the topic than anything.
2. "Muh that's authoritarian"
masterfully baiting this hard, in public no less.
It's interesting when you go back and see how Golarion was originally presented, it was a fairly mature setting, some would even argue "Edge Lord" in many respects. It's been watered down and all it's edges slowly sanded off.
I cancelled my own subscription, so I can finally stop trying to gaslight myself into thinking I prefer overly complex rules.
Quote from: Orphan81 on January 17, 2025, 11:32:34 PMIt's interesting when you go back and see how Golarion was originally presented, it was a fairly mature setting, some would even argue "Edge Lord" in many respects. It's been watered down and all it's edges slowly sanded off.
I cancelled my own subscription, so I can finally stop trying to gaslight myself into thinking I prefer overly complex rules.
Pathfinder has always been too complex and crunchy for my tastes, but I really like the books I have for 1E. I mine them for ideas. Mostly the good artwork, as inspiration. Just look at those bestiaries.
It's a shame that they have chosen to become ambassadors for wokeness.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 11:24:29 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 10:29:21 PMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 07:42:55 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 06:51:51 PMEvery term will be watered down and misused. The alternative is to stop talking about anything contentious.
it's not a zero sum game. you can and should moderate and gatekeep your own side.
Good advice, but I claim no side, so I don't know who I'd moderate or gatekeep.
Plus there's also the issue of the sides trying to obscure issues by pretending the labels are the problem, not the topics people bring up.
Quotenor is the alternative to throw in the towel. your fox news watching parents should stay in their lane and stop dulling and watering down every tool the Right uses, period.
Nobody should "stay in their lane". That's authoritarian social manipulation to silence dissent.
1. using sloppy labels does far more damage to obscure the topic than anything.
I disagree, for the previously stated reason.
Quote2. "Muh that's authoritarian" masterfully baiting this hard, in public no less.
If you just want to say "Nuh Uh!", I'll leave you to it.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 05:36:53 PMAlso just like Woke was a proud label before being turned on it's head, so was Fascist, Fascist as a word has Roman symbology and connotation (a bundle of sticks) as such many early fascists between the 1920s and 40s would have proudly called themselves such.
I don't consider it to be a fair comparison at all and only technically correct (which is admittedly the best kind for a rules lawyer!). One (woke) is literally being used both initially by and later against the very same people who invented it where as the other (fascist) is being hypocritically used exclusively as an insult to a completely unrelated group of people from a different continent almost a century later. If the term "woke" was widely in use in the post WW2 era then you may have had a point but that's not the case.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 13, 2025, 11:00:21 AMThe Paizo line is old news from August of 2024. What makes some guy's three lines on it significant enough for a thread now?
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/auIHDOEiIFoAAAAd/dumb-thats-dumb.gif)
Only a drag queen would ask that question, lol.
Quote from: RNGm on January 18, 2025, 08:49:36 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 05:36:53 PMAlso just like Woke was a proud label before being turned on it's head, so was Fascist, Fascist as a word has Roman symbology and connotation (a bundle of sticks) as such many early fascists between the 1920s and 40s would have proudly called themselves such.
I don't consider it to be a fair comparison at all and only technically correct (which is admittedly the best kind for a rules lawyer!). One (woke) is literally being used both initially by and later against the very same people who invented it where as the other (fascist) is being hypocritically used exclusively as an insult to a completely unrelated group of people from a different continent almost a century later. If the term "woke" was widely in use in the post WW2 era then you may have had a point but that's not the case.
I feel sort of the same regarding your argument, to put it bluntly it's pedantic and misses the heart of the issue altogether.
to punctuate on this point, both Woke and Fascist as terms have under gone the same metamorphism overtime. back in the early 2010s blood sports debates era, one very clever rejoinder a Rightoid could make to a Leftist was to "define Fascism" after the accusation had been slung. this almost always put the Leftist on the backfoot as they failed to actually define it. The Leftists wisely stopped taking that bait altogether because they understood how watered downed the term had become
I've seen in real time this same metamorphism to Woke as a label. where Leftists asked "Define Woke" or "Define CRT" or likewise and many a Rightoid utterly stammering or failing to give a proper definition because most of them had just heard it in passing and really didn't get it. and just like the Left before, they just stopped taking that bait, but the damage has been done.
to punctuate on this point even further: this is why Woke-Right died on conception, the term had no weight or energy behind it, there was no way to reweaponize and it came off as the psyop it was. both labels are reduced mudslinging snarl words, plain and simple.
EDIT: The bigger problem with Piazo is they seem entitled to the books they've already sold you, but everyone got tangled on the sacred cow that was their favorite schoolyard insult being denigrated by me and just jumped on that point.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 11:24:29 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 10:29:21 PMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 07:42:55 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 06:51:51 PMEvery term will be watered down and misused. The alternative is to stop talking about anything contentious.
it's not a zero sum game. you can and should moderate and gatekeep your own side.
Good advice, but I claim no side, so I don't know who I'd moderate or gatekeep.
Plus there's also the issue of the sides trying to obscure issues by pretending the labels are the problem, not the topics people bring up.
But I do think "If you don't think like I do, We don't want you playing our games", is an accurate use of woke.
Quotenor is the alternative to throw in the towel. your fox news watching parents should stay in their lane and stop dulling and watering down every tool the Right uses, period.
Nobody should "stay in their lane". That's authoritarian social manipulation to silence dissent.
1. using sloppy labels does far more damage to obscure the topic than anything
Like "your fox news watching parents". I hear this one a lot. People think everyone who has a center to right point of view watches/gets their ideas from Fox News.
But I think that "If you don't think like us, we don't want you playing our games", like Piazo, is an accurate use of "woke".
Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 18, 2025, 02:48:01 PMLike "your fox news watching parents". I hear this one a lot. People think everyone who has a center to right point of view watches/gets their ideas from Fox News.
But I think that "If you don't think like us, we don't want you playing our games", like Piazo, is an accurate use of "woke".
I'd more often describe myself as a Goldwater conservative than really anything else, and even I find Fox News to be total dribble, and mainstream news a whole, I still find to many of my fellows partaking in the retardation of cable TV news.
Quote from: RNGm on January 18, 2025, 08:49:36 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 05:36:53 PMAlso just like Woke was a proud label before being turned on it's head, so was Fascist, Fascist as a word has Roman symbology and connotation (a bundle of sticks) as such many early fascists between the 1920s and 40s would have proudly called themselves such.
I don't consider it to be a fair comparison at all and only technically correct (which is admittedly the best kind for a rules lawyer!). One (woke) is literally being used both initially by and later against the very same people who invented it where as the other (fascist) is being hypocritically used exclusively as an insult to a completely unrelated group of people from a different continent almost a century later. If the term "woke" was widely in use in the post WW2 era then you may have had a point but that's not the case.
Sorry, but you don't appear to know what woke meant when it was invented. It was not a catch-all for lefty positions. It's specific to African-Americans. Not trans issues. Not gay issues. Not generic DEI issues. It's only intended for "Becoming aware, and staying aware, of social and political issues affecting African Americans." That's what it meant. It's not even new as it started in the 1930s.
So no, it's not being used against just the people who themselves used it and invented it. It definitely has become a generic insult against anything perceived to be lefty, including groups that are entirely unrelated to the group it was invented by and used by originally. Just like Fascist is being used now.
Quote from: Mistwell on January 18, 2025, 06:39:15 PMQuote from: RNGm on January 18, 2025, 08:49:36 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 05:36:53 PMAlso just like Woke was a proud label before being turned on it's head, so was Fascist, Fascist as a word has Roman symbology and connotation (a bundle of sticks) as such many early fascists between the 1920s and 40s would have proudly called themselves such.
I don't consider it to be a fair comparison at all and only technically correct (which is admittedly the best kind for a rules lawyer!). One (woke) is literally being used both initially by and later against the very same people who invented it where as the other (fascist) is being hypocritically used exclusively as an insult to a completely unrelated group of people from a different continent almost a century later. If the term "woke" was widely in use in the post WW2 era then you may have had a point but that's not the case.
Sorry, but you don't appear to know what woke meant when it was invented. It was not a catch-all for lefty positions. It's specific to African-Americans. Not trans issues. Not gay issues. Not generic DEI issues. It's only intended for "Becoming aware, and staying aware, of social and political issues affecting African Americans." That's what it meant. It's not even new as it started in the 1930s.
So no, it's not being used against just the people who themselves used it and invented it. It definitely has become a generic insult against anything perceived to be lefty, including groups that are entirely unrelated to the group it was invented by and used by originally. Just like Fascist is being used now.
It got generic over time and it was never in much use among the black community. The generic version saw far more use. At least thats my expirence. Maybe it was a West Coast thing or used in Europe.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 16, 2025, 03:20:56 PMSnarl words aside like "fascist" and "woke"
There's a fundamental asymmetry here in who uses these words and how.
The term fascists is often used by publishers or people who work for them and directed at customers or at least potential customers. It's stuff like this or the various "No fascists" purity tests that progressives love to put in games. Woke virtue signaling by calling anyone who disagrees with them a fascist is aggressive and is coming from the publishers. It is the publisher saying, "We don't want you here" to anyone who disagrees with them. Progressive publishers are very fond of saying that people who disagree with politically are not welcome to play
their game or in
their community
The term woke is mainly used by customers and directed at publishers. I won't buy Paizo products because they are woke. It's the customer saying, "I don't want that". Anti-wokeness from publishers mainly consist of a simple refusal to pander to woke sensibilities. It's stuff like putting white guys in the art and having evil races. It's mostly stuff that was considered normal in ttrpgs before about a decade ago. I have never seen the performative virtue signaling and purity tests from right-leaning publishers. I have never seen a "No wokies allowed" disclaimer in a game from a right-leaning publishers or seen one saying that there's "No space for progressives" in their game. They just don't put in a lot of stuff to please the woke types. I have never seen a right-leaning publisher say that progressive types are not welcome to buy or play their products or talk about players as a community that they
own.
Quote from: yosemitemike on January 19, 2025, 05:19:48 AMI have never seen the performative virtue signaling and purity tests from right-leaning publishers.
I'll highlight this specific thing because everything else in this thread has been talked to death by others, scroll any youtube channel right now that has a right wing bent and covers news and you'll find plenty of clickbaity thumbnails saying "anti-woke" soy facing over something advertising itself as "not woke" or "anti-woke" (regardless if its actually good or not) The Right-Wing definitely has performative signaling and purity tests.
Now what makes it more tolerable in Right-Wing circles is they don't exclude people, they simply state "if you like this product buy it, if not, don't" simple as, and they have a path of redemption, you can actually walk back statements and be forgiven. but it doesn't make it any less performative, and they can also get preachy in their own way.
While it's far less common in in the TTRPG sense, plenty of creators advertise how not woke they are, RPGpudent comes to mind, as does the Red Room, The Basic Expert, I could go on, plenty of their streams and videos they directly advertise and signal to their in-groups that they are "anti-woke". now unlike the the Left they don't contaminate their products with their own ideology (typically) but again no less performative.
When it comes to my hobbies I'm very apolitical despite me being quite right-populist in my private life, I had grandparents who watched the 700 club and thought D&D had literal satanic spirits in, I'm perfectly aware of how performative and stupid both sides can be when unchecked. I oppose moralists and mudslingers in all forms.
EDIT: "is Woke = fascist in terms of snarl words?" as a debate/question is basically culture war derailment and I shouldn't surprise that was the part of my first comment that spiraled this, but the truth is Piazo should be panned over the idiocy of thinking they are entitled to products post sale, that's the kind of idiocy that transcends partisan politics altogether.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 19, 2025, 02:25:22 PMThe Right-Wing definitely has performative signaling and purity tests.
Show me three examples of this in published rpgs written by right-leaning creators. I don't mean people opposing woke content in games. I mean statements to the effect that woke people are not allowed to play the game or that there is no room for them in "the community". I mean from the publishers or creators themselves. I have never seen this.
Quote from: yosemitemike on January 19, 2025, 08:59:57 PMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 19, 2025, 02:25:22 PMThe Right-Wing definitely has performative signaling and purity tests.
Show me three examples of this in published rpgs written by right-leaning creators. I don't mean people opposing woke content in games. I mean statements to the effect that woke people are not allowed to play the game or that there is no room for them in "the community". I mean from the publishers or creators themselves. I have never seen this.
if you had read anything past that line you would have seen the caveats I had to that sentence, but whatever.
though in full honesty I haven't seen this from right leaning creators as much, given all of the major studies, Chaosium, Green Ronin, WOTC, Piazo, are all Left-wing, so not many Right-Wing examples as they tend to be indie and thus don't want to lose an audience.
Though I could find examples, such as Kenneth Molyneaux, or Varg Vikernes. creators of RaHoWa and MYFAROG respectively. but I doubt you'd count those.
EDIT. Even Pundit has said these people shouldn't be designing RPGs, (Woke, Far Left-leaning) which is just a much more polite form of purity test/ signaling, and I don't even necessarily disagree with him, but pretending the Right has no tribalism or purity tests or performative signaling is a joke I'm not willing to dignify.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 19, 2025, 09:31:10 PMgiven all of the major studies, Chaosium, Green Ronin, WOTC, Piazo, are all Left-wing, so not many Right-Wing examples as they tend to be indie and thus don't want to lose an audience.
"Right-wing" publisher here. I don't behave like this not because I don't want to lose an audience. I know my particular game isn't for everyone. If you buy it, that's great. If not, that's great, too. Naturally, I'd love to have everyone who discovers Radical High to drop everything and purchase it immediately, but the actual reason I don't put anti-woke in my games is that people who make non-woke games don't have anything to prove. The games aren't a vehicle for an ideological agenda. Instead, they're what they're supposed to be: for thrills.
It's a whole different mindset. Non-woke people just don't have the time for these kind of games. We'd rather enjoy the RPG type.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 19, 2025, 11:01:04 PMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 19, 2025, 09:31:10 PMgiven all of the major studies, Chaosium, Green Ronin, WOTC, Piazo, are all Left-wing, so not many Right-Wing examples as they tend to be indie and thus don't want to lose an audience.
"Right-wing" publisher here. I don't behave like this not because I don't want to lose an audience. I know my particular game isn't for everyone. If you buy it, that's great. If not, that's great, too. Naturally, I'd love to have everyone who discovers Radical High to drop everything and purchase it immediately, but the actual reason I don't put anti-woke in my games is that people who make non-woke games don't have anything to prove. The games aren't a vehicle for an ideological agenda. Instead, they're what they're supposed to be: for thrills.
It's a whole different mindset. Non-woke people just don't have the time for these kind of games. We'd rather enjoy the RPG type.
I literally wrote this exact thing 5 posts or so ago.
"Now what makes it more tolerable in Right-Wing circles is they don't exclude people, they simply state "if you like this product buy it, if not, don't" simple as, and they have a path of redemption, you can actually walk back statements and be forgiven. but it doesn't make it any less performative, and they can also get preachy in their own way."
Nobody is accusing you of being a partisan hack. I'm conservative, but I'm not going pretend the political pendulum can't possibly swing the other way. and this entire stupid argument was born over me thinking woke is an overused term.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 19, 2025, 09:31:10 PMthough in full honesty I haven't seen this from right leaning creators
So you haven't seen it either.
The real difference has always been that the "right" doesn't care and just don't want stuff shoved down their throats, while the "left" can't help but virtue signal and say how XYZ is bad because marginalized people so they need to "fix" their hypothetical Dark Ages European setting to have blacks everywhere and not treat being gay as a sin, and if you think that's wrong because it's not historically accurate you're a bigot and they don't want you to buy their game, and furthermore they don't want you in the hobby at all and wish they could black list you entirely for disagreeing.
I have never once seen any "right-wing" game or creator be as openly hostile as the left is when it comes to anything. The sheer fact that the left treats the statement of "no politics" as meaning "no minorities, LGBT people, or women" speaks volumes to how delusionally brainwashed they are. The left are completely compromised as far as their views to where not only do they not get that they are the ones who act like "fascists" by taking an "with us or against us" approach, but they go so far as to justify that attitude towards people who, ultimately, just say "I don't want to be preached to about modern day diversity and inclusion propaganda"
I went to rpgnet to see the DJT tears yesterday. sadly they ignored the whole thing, but their view on the piazo kerfluffle is that,
"its a few double digit subscriber right wing channels who need clickbait over a nothing statement"
they have no idea why the topic came up.
+1 to Nobleshields comment.
I'm surprised. The last time I went there years ago they had 3-4 pop up far left propaganda balloon disclaimers above the actual forum content that you had to close to get more than half the screen real estate back on a typical computer screen.
Every complaint to the left is always dismissed as "a few alt-right fans". See videogames, board games, RPGs, etc. they deflect any criticism because they actually agree with it and don't see how "anyone" could not agree that "fascists have no place in anything, ever". The fact they use "fascist" as a catch-all to anyone not agreeing with left-wing politics is completely lost on them.
Quote from: Nobleshield on January 21, 2025, 08:28:08 AMThe real difference has always been that the "right" doesn't care and just don't want stuff shoved down their throats, while the "left" can't help but virtue signal and say how XYZ is bad
The RPG forum here is filled with right-leaning posts about how XYZ is bad -- especially how someone saw on social media that game book XYZ (that they don't own or play) has a bad illustration on page 147.
It's far more political here than my local left-leaning gaming circles, which mostly talk about the games they are playing or want to play - not about games they think are bad.
Quote from: jhkim on January 21, 2025, 04:06:18 PMQuote from: Nobleshield on January 21, 2025, 08:28:08 AMThe real difference has always been that the "right" doesn't care and just don't want stuff shoved down their throats, while the "left" can't help but virtue signal and say how XYZ is bad
The RPG forum here is filled with right-leaning posts about how XYZ is bad -- especially how someone saw on social media that game book XYZ (that they don't own or play) has a bad illustration on page 147.
It's far more political here than my local left-leaning gaming circles, which mostly talk about the games they are playing or want to play - not about games they think are bad.
So people who are catered to complain less than those who are castigated and excluded?
That's a head scratcher.
Quote from: Krazz on January 21, 2025, 04:43:42 PMSo people who are catered to complain less than those who are castigated and excluded?
That's a head scratcher.
Look, pointing out stupidity in gaming that literally is undermining the whole point of the hobby is not valid. Just take your Marxist indoctrination like a man (or woman, oops, sorry xir!) and shut up.
Quote from: jhkim on January 21, 2025, 04:06:18 PMThe RPG forum here is filled with right-leaning posts about how XYZ is bad -- especially how someone saw on social media that game book XYZ (that they don't own or play) has a bad illustration on page 147.
It's far more political here than my local left-leaning gaming circles, which mostly talk about the games they are playing or want to play - not about games they think are bad.
This is a forum that specifically allows that discussion where others like reddit and rpgnet go out of their way to delete threads and ban people who mention it. That such discussions then happen here in one of the few places it's not a one-way banhammer ticket is not something that should be surprising. Absent the pressuring factor of only being able to mention things here, the conversation topics would be more varied.
Quote from: Valatar on January 22, 2025, 07:08:44 AMQuote from: jhkim on January 21, 2025, 04:06:18 PMThe RPG forum here is filled with right-leaning posts about how XYZ is bad -- especially how someone saw on social media that game book XYZ (that they don't own or play) has a bad illustration on page 147.
It's far more political here than my local left-leaning gaming circles, which mostly talk about the games they are playing or want to play - not about games they think are bad.
This is a forum that specifically allows that discussion where others like reddit and rpgnet go out of their way to delete threads and ban people who mention it. That such discussions then happen here in one of the few places it's not a one-way banhammer ticket is not something that should be surprising. Absent the pressuring factor of only being able to mention things here, the conversation topics would be more varied.
He knows this. He's just trying to manufacture a moral equivalency between the left's authoritarian view on RPGs and the rest of us, who just want politics out of our games.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 22, 2025, 08:57:51 AMQuote from: Valatar on January 22, 2025, 07:08:44 AMQuote from: jhkim on January 21, 2025, 04:06:18 PMThe RPG forum here is filled with right-leaning posts about how XYZ is bad -- especially how someone saw on social media that game book XYZ (that they don't own or play) has a bad illustration on page 147.
It's far more political here than my local left-leaning gaming circles, which mostly talk about the games they are playing or want to play - not about games they think are bad.
This is a forum that specifically allows that discussion where others like reddit and rpgnet go out of their way to delete threads and ban people who mention it. That such discussions then happen here in one of the few places it's not a one-way banhammer ticket is not something that should be surprising. Absent the pressuring factor of only being able to mention things here, the conversation topics would be more varied.
He knows this. He's just trying to manufacture a moral equivalency between the left's authoritarian view on RPGs and the rest of us, who just want politics out of our games.
Second it's just JHKiM being his usual disingenuous self.
" stepping on a live landline is dangerous..are you sure?" Is what one can expect from him.
Quote from: Abraxus on January 22, 2025, 11:24:44 AMQuote from: Eirikrautha on January 22, 2025, 08:57:51 AMQuote from: Valatar on January 22, 2025, 07:08:44 AMQuote from: jhkim on January 21, 2025, 04:06:18 PMThe RPG forum here is filled with right-leaning posts about how XYZ is bad -- especially how someone saw on social media that game book XYZ (that they don't own or play) has a bad illustration on page 147.
It's far more political here than my local left-leaning gaming circles, which mostly talk about the games they are playing or want to play - not about games they think are bad.
This is a forum that specifically allows that discussion where others like reddit and rpgnet go out of their way to delete threads and ban people who mention it. That such discussions then happen here in one of the few places it's not a one-way banhammer ticket is not something that should be surprising. Absent the pressuring factor of only being able to mention things here, the conversation topics would be more varied.
He knows this. He's just trying to manufacture a moral equivalency between the left's authoritarian view on RPGs and the rest of us, who just want politics out of our games.
Second it's just JHKiM being his usual disingenuous self.
" stepping on a live landline is dangerous..are you sure?" Is what one can expect from him.
So I point out the blazingly obvious fact that there are a ton of political posts here, and that's me speaking crazy talk?
I suppose I can expect that. When I say "people should be divided into two sexes: male and female" and "boys have a penis, girls have a vagina" -- then conservative posters here scream at how wrong I am, and how gender actually complicated. It seems like whatever I say, some posters will twist themselves into knots over how it's wrong.
(https://res.cloudinary.com/teepublic/image/private/s--uiew_Mvu--/c_fit,g_north_west,h_840,w_840/co_ffffff,e_outline:40/co_ffffff,e_outline:inner_fill:1/co_ffffff,e_outline:40/co_ffffff,e_outline:inner_fill:1/co_bbbbbb,e_outline:3:1000/c_mpad,g_center,h_1260,w_1260/b_rgb:eeeeee/c_limit,f_auto,h_630,q_auto:good:420,w_630/v1632752248/production/designs/24576274_1.jpg)
Yeah...no
You don't get to play the poor pity victim of any sort especially when you know the obvious answer, then try to pass it off as a fake disingenuous Mr Magoo clueless act.
I'm not saying don't ever question or accept everything and anything as fact.
Sometimes it's just objectively factual and your constant "yah but " gets tiresome.
Quote from: Valatar on January 22, 2025, 07:08:44 AMThis is a forum that specifically allows that discussion where others like reddit and rpgnet go out of their way to delete threads and ban people who mention it.
Keep in mind that you're bringing this up to a person who states in his RPG links that RPG.net is...
Quotewww.rpg.net
One of the best collection site, with a large list of reviews, companies, articles, and hosted sites.
This alone should tell you everything.
Quote from: blackstone on January 23, 2025, 11:13:56 AMQuote from: Valatar on January 22, 2025, 07:08:44 AMThis is a forum that specifically allows that discussion where others like reddit and rpgnet go out of their way to delete threads and ban people who mention it.
Keep in mind that you're bringing this up to a person who states in his RPG links that RPG.net is...
Quotewww.rpg.net
One of the best collection site, with a large list of reviews, companies, articles, and hosted sites.
This alone should tell you everything.
That list of links is from 2011. I stand by it being one of the best collection sites in 2011. Here's the page:
https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/links.html
The question is, what are the best sites for collections of reviews and other information now? RPGnet still hosts over a thousand reviews from over decades.
There's now rpggeek. Are there other recommendations you'd have?
Quote from: jhkim on January 23, 2025, 12:30:53 PMQuote from: blackstone on January 23, 2025, 11:13:56 AMQuote from: Valatar on January 22, 2025, 07:08:44 AMThis is a forum that specifically allows that discussion where others like reddit and rpgnet go out of their way to delete threads and ban people who mention it.
Keep in mind that you're bringing this up to a person who states in his RPG links that RPG.net is...
Quotewww.rpg.net
One of the best collection site, with a large list of reviews, companies, articles, and hosted sites.
This alone should tell you everything.
That list of links is from 2011. I stand by it being one of the best collection sites in 2011. Here's the page:
https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/links.html
The question is, what are the best sites for collections of reviews and other information now? RPGnet still hosts over a thousand reviews from over decades.
There's now rpggeek. Are there other recommendations you'd have?
OH! For 2011! You should have said so. Man, my bad...
FFS, can you push the goalposts any farther?
BUT you conveniently left out their FORUMS. rpg.net's forums are the most left-leaning and draconian-enforced forums out there. You know, I know it, EVERYBODY KNOWS IT...Right along with their stupid DEI flag.
Which is why some people came here, because at least here, people on all sides of the political spectrum can have debate, discourse, and conversation.
rpg.net? You've got to be fucking kidding me.
The fact rpg.net was willing to keep lots of good content from posters they later banned for being "problematic" is the same bullshit as Conan RPGs that badmouth REH for being racist. At one point it was a good place to discuss RPGs and read reviews, but now it's worthless for anything published in the past 10 years.
Quote from: blackstone on January 23, 2025, 03:06:35 PMOH! For 2011! You should have said so. Man, my bad...
FFS, can you push the goalposts any farther?
How the fuck is that goalpost shifting? You cited a page of mine that clearly states on the page that it was last updated in 2011.
The inclusion of that link is even earlier, though. I added the link with those words some time before 2001. The earliest archive I see of my links page is 2001, where you can see the rpgnet link there:
https://web.archive.org/web/20011106163356/http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/links.html (https://web.archive.org/web/20011106163356/http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/links.html)
Now, you could say that I didn't go back and remove the link to rpgnet. That's fair. I've been terrible even about pruning dead links, let alone editing them because of their politics.
Quote from: blackstone on January 23, 2025, 03:06:35 PMBUT you conveniently left out their FORUMS. rpg.net's forums are the most left-leaning and draconian-enforced forums out there. You know, I know it, EVERYBODY KNOWS IT...Right along with their stupid DEI flag.
I suspect I didn't mention their forums because their forums didn't even exist back in 2001.
Quote from: jhkim on January 23, 2025, 04:16:58 PMQuote from: blackstone on January 23, 2025, 03:06:35 PMOH! For 2011! You should have said so. Man, my bad...
FFS, can you push the goalposts any farther?
How the fuck is that goalpost shifting? You cited a page of mine that clearly states on the page that it was last updated in 2011.
The inclusion of that link is even earlier, though. I added the link with those words some time before 2001. The earliest archive I see of my links page is 2001, where you can see the rpgnet link there:
https://web.archive.org/web/20011106163356/http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/links.html (https://web.archive.org/web/20011106163356/http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/links.html)
Now, you could say that I didn't go back and remove the link to rpgnet. That's fair. I've been terrible even about pruning dead links, let alone editing them because of their politics.
Quote from: blackstone on January 23, 2025, 03:06:35 PMBUT you conveniently left out their FORUMS. rpg.net's forums are the most left-leaning and draconian-enforced forums out there. You know, I know it, EVERYBODY KNOWS IT...Right along with their stupid DEI flag.
I suspect I didn't mention their forums because their forums didn't even exist back in 2001.
...and yet you still had the link to rpg.net in your links section. Not my fault you can't keep up with the times to not even bother to check if even the links work, let alone if their content changed.
Their forums not existing in 2001 is your excuse. Really? So what? They've been around for at least ten years.
You've been here long enough to have engaged with people who have been booted from their forums. Years, in fact. Myself included.
Quote from: blackstone on January 23, 2025, 07:12:25 PM...and yet you still had the link to rpg.net in your links section. Not my fault you can't keep up with the times to not even bother to check if even the links work, let alone if their content changed.
Their forums not existing in 2001 is your excuse. Really? So what? They've been around for at least ten years.
You've been here long enough to have engaged with people who have been booted from their forums. Years, in fact. Myself included.
So because you were booted from the forums there, I'm supposed to go through and edit all of my old content to remove any mention of rpg.net from any posts or pages of mine.
The fact that I didn't do so proves that I'm the enemy and that's all that anyone needs to know about me.
Does that sum it up?
Quote from: jhkim on January 23, 2025, 07:19:07 PMQuote from: blackstone on January 23, 2025, 07:12:25 PM...and yet you still had the link to rpg.net in your links section. Not my fault you can't keep up with the times to not even bother to check if even the links work, let alone if their content changed.
Their forums not existing in 2001 is your excuse. Really? So what? They've been around for at least ten years.
You've been here long enough to have engaged with people who have been booted from their forums. Years, in fact. Myself included.
So because you were booted from the forums there, I'm supposed to go through and edit all of my old content to remove any mention of rpg.net from any posts or pages of mine.
The fact that I didn't do so proves that I'm the enemy and that's all that anyone needs to know about me.
Does that sum it up?
(Sigh) No, that's not the point. Not just me specifically. Many people here have been booted from rpg.net because we didn't follow their Orwellian groupthink community guidelines for their forums.
You've been here long enough to know the forums here was designed to be an open forum, regardless of political affiliation. The only people I've seen where the ban hammer came down are obvious trolls or people crossing over content from one forum to another that doesn't fit the forum's content.
My point in bringing up rpg.net was in regard to their forums, and I would further argue that their insane community guidelines DO apply to their reviews and other content. To think otherwise is foolish. They're all part of the same website.
Be honest. Do you REALLY believe a review of a product by someone that was right-leaning, and it showed in their review, be allowed to have their review posted there?
No, of course it wouldn't. They would have it removed immediately, call into question the character of that person by screaming "Nazi!" at the top of their lungs (figuratively speaking), and at best give that reviewer a good talking to. At worst, they'd be banned form ever posting reviews there.
Is that a website you want to be affiliated with?
For me, absolutely not. I'd rather go to a website where I'm allowed to speak my mind, read other people's opinions and views, and if need be, debate said views in true discourse.
True freedom of speech. Something I hold in the highest regard.
In fact, so much so, that you yourself can say what you want and I will defend your right to say it, even if we disagree.Can you say the same thing about rpg.net?
Quote from: blackstone on January 24, 2025, 08:16:40 AMBe honest. Do you REALLY believe a review of a product by someone that was right-leaning, and it showed in their review, be allowed to have their review posted there?
I think the bolded part is the problem (regardless of left/right bias). If you can't review a RPG product without putting obvious politics into your review, then you're doing it wrong.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 24, 2025, 11:05:09 AMQuote from: blackstone on January 24, 2025, 08:16:40 AMBe honest. Do you REALLY believe a review of a product by someone that was right-leaning, and it showed in their review, be allowed to have their review posted there?
I think the bolded part is the problem (regardless of left/right bias). If you can't review a RPG product without putting obvious politics into your review, then you're doing it wrong.
I agree, but we're talking about rpg.net here. I don't trust them about as much as I can toss them.
Quote from: blackstone on January 24, 2025, 08:16:40 AMBe honest. Do you REALLY believe a review of a product by someone that was right-leaning, and it showed in their review, be allowed to have their review posted there?
No, of course it wouldn't. They would have it removed immediately, call into question the character of that person by screaming "Nazi!" at the top of their lungs (figuratively speaking), and at best give that reviewer a good talking to. At worst, they'd be banned form ever posting reviews there.
Is that a website you want to be affiliated with?
For me, absolutely not. I'd rather go to a website where I'm allowed to speak my mind, read other people's opinions and views, and if need be, debate said views in true discourse.
True freedom of speech. Something I hold in the highest regard. In fact, so much so, that you yourself can say what you want and I will defend your right to say it, even if we disagree.
To be clear, I do prefer the light moderation here on theRPGsite forums compared to the more heavy-handed moderation RPGnet forums (and many other forums I've tried). I like a good argument, and for people to be able to speak their minds.
---
However, it is bizarrely backwards that you're demanding that I delete mentions of rpg.net from all my old material since the 1990s in the name of free speech.
I do not vet my links to make sure that the people linked to have values matching my own. For example, I had Kenneth Molyneaux's "Racial Holy War" listed in my Free RPGs list, and I remember someone emailing me that I shouldn't list it because of its racism.
I have no problem linking to rpg.net, because they do in fact have a ton of material like RPG reviews there which are useful to gamers. They even host reviews of RPGPundit's games, for example. That I link to them doesn't mean that I am "associated with" them in anything but the most trivial sense.
I would consider it a positive value for free speech to talk to and thus associate with people of differing values to one's own. That is what enables broader understanding and the free marketplace of ideas.
Quote from: jhkim on January 23, 2025, 04:16:58 PMI suspect I didn't mention their forums because their forums didn't even exist back in 2001.
They were around, I was on the prior incarnation for a bit before they did the overhaul in early 2002. Accounts didn't transition so you had to sign up for new ones.
Quote from: Thornhammer on January 26, 2025, 09:04:31 AMQuote from: jhkim on January 23, 2025, 04:16:58 PMI suspect I didn't mention their forums because their forums didn't even exist back in 2001.
They were around, I was on the prior incarnation for a bit before they did the overhaul in early 2002. Accounts didn't transition so you had to sign up for new ones.
Thanks for the info - my memory is hazy. I know I was never very active on rpg.net, but I probably had a forum account earlier. I knew it mostly as a place for reviews back then, and I submitted a couple of reviews in the early 2000s.
I'm also sure that the forums were very different in 2001 than in the past ten years.
I was on there back in the threaded view software days. So long ago. I often think the upgrade was the beginning of the decline. Because that lead to Tangency and while, for the first couple years it was just some guy posting whenever he got a free Coke, it eventually had everything ruled as off topic shunted over to it. For a number of years there wasn't even a media forum, it was all just in Tangency.
Quote from: David Johansen on January 26, 2025, 09:24:38 PMI was on there back in the threaded view software days. So long ago. I often think the upgrade was the beginning of the decline. Because that lead to Tangency and while, for the first couple years it was just some guy posting whenever he got a free Coke, it eventually had everything ruled as off topic shunted over to it. For a number of years there wasn't even a media forum, it was all just in Tangency.
I was there too. Tangency was the beginning of the end. We were all assured that the off-topic political stuff would be confined to tangency but I and many others knew that was bullshit. It quickly spread to the other forums like a metastasizing cancer. Once Tangency was allowed, it inevitably morphed from an RPG forum to an RPG forum with a political section to a political forum where RPGs are sometimes discussed too. All of the forum's current problems follow from this bad decision. Give these people an inch and they will take the whole damn forum.
Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 03:00:31 AMQuote from: David Johansen on January 26, 2025, 09:24:38 PMI was on there back in the threaded view software days. So long ago. I often think the upgrade was the beginning of the decline. Because that lead to Tangency and while, for the first couple years it was just some guy posting whenever he got a free Coke, it eventually had everything ruled as off topic shunted over to it. For a number of years there wasn't even a media forum, it was all just in Tangency.
I was there too. Tangency was the beginning of the end. We were all assured that the off-topic political stuff would be confined to tangency but I and many others knew that was bullshit. It quickly spread to the other forums like a metastasizing cancer. Once Tangency was allowed, it inevitably morphed from an RPG forum to an RPG forum with a political section to a political forum where RPGs are sometimes discussed too. All of the forum's current problems follow from this bad decision. Give these people an inch and they will take the whole damn forum.
Sadly, this happens here all too often as well. Non-gaming politics still shows up fairly often in the gaming sections of the forum, with posters using the flimisist of attempts to link a political rant to some piece of gaming (if they even bother with that).
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 04:36:45 AMSadly, this happens here all too often as well. Non-gaming politics still shows up fairly often in the gaming sections of the forum, with posters using the flimisist of attempts to link a political rant to some piece of gaming (if they even bother with that).
The difference here is that Pundit will actually take action if people too it too much and too blatantly. At TBP, the staff either ignored it or supported it as long as the person was expressing the correct Progressive viewpoint. It didn't take long for people to figure out that they could say pretty much anything they wanted as long as they used the correct Progressives framework and couched it in the approved Progressive words and phrases. People learned to play the game and get around the rules very quickly.
Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 05:49:10 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 04:36:45 AMSadly, this happens here all too often as well. Non-gaming politics still shows up fairly often in the gaming sections of the forum, with posters using the flimisist of attempts to link a political rant to some piece of gaming (if they even bother with that).
The difference here is that Pundit will actually take action if people too it too much and too blatantly. At TBP, the staff either ignored it or supported it as long as the person was expressing the correct Progressive viewpoint. It didn't take long for people to figure out that they could say pretty much anything they wanted as long as they used the correct Progressives framework and couched it in the approved Progressive words and phrases. People learned to play the game and get around the rules very quickly.
In practice, there is little difference. People here "play the game" and get around Pundit's rules all the time. It would be nice if the non-politics sections actually stayed that way, but that's not whats really going on. Fuzzy rules with weak enforcement has a downside.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 05:59:32 AMIn practice, there is little difference. People here "play the game" and get around Pundit's rules all the time. It would be nice if the non-politics sections actually stayed that way, but that's not whats really going on. Fuzzy rules with weak enforcement has a downside.
I would say that the difference in outcomes between there and here demonstrates that there is a lot of difference.
Quote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 06:15:38 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 05:59:32 AMIn practice, there is little difference. People here "play the game" and get around Pundit's rules all the time. It would be nice if the non-politics sections actually stayed that way, but that's not whats really going on. Fuzzy rules with weak enforcement has a downside.
I would say that the difference in outcomes between there and here demonstrates that there is a lot of difference.
We get less people banned here, but we also get more off-topic politics splattered everywhere.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 06:20:35 AMWe get less people banned here, but we also get more off-topic politics splattered everywhere.
More than TBP? I would say there's a lot less.
Quote from: jhkim on January 25, 2025, 06:25:27 PMI would consider it a positive value for free speech to talk to and thus associate with people of differing values to one's own. That is what enables broader understanding and the free marketplace of ideas.
As do I, but rpg.net forums is exactly the opposite of that: an echo chamber of left-leaning views on rpg culture. You have to play by their forum rules, which is my point. If their forum rules, code of conduct etc, weren't so restrictive then most people wouldn't have a problem with them. They are not free speech.
Quote from: blackstone on January 27, 2025, 09:49:39 AMAs do I, but rpg.net forums is exactly the opposite of that: an echo chamber of left-leaning views on rpg culture. You have to play by their forum rules, which is my point. If their forum rules, code of conduct etc, weren't so restrictive then most people wouldn't have a problem with them. They are not free speech.
The only rule over there is you can do whatever you want as long as you badmouth conservatives. That's it.
Quote from: jhkim on January 26, 2025, 08:14:47 PMThanks for the info - my memory is hazy. I know I was never very active on rpg.net, but I probably had a forum account earlier. I knew it mostly as a place for reviews back then, and I submitted a couple of reviews in the early 2000s.
FWIW, I remember reading one of the forums on TBP the morning of 9/11.
Stopped visiting around 2010 or so, after going after some guy who was telling me how much he hated children and the mods didn't care (I was a new dad at the time, so sensitive to this). "It's okay to not like some groups of people" I believe is what they said, which I admit -is- fine, but I knew that they'd have dropped the banhammer on that clown if he'd said the same thing about gays. Between that, tolerating Old Geezer's repeated abuses of the system, and letting Rand Brittan advertise for Jenna Moran's fiction books in the general threads -repeatedly-, I'd realized something. I realized that even if their clique never came after me, it was too willing and ready to play favorites for me to want to participate anymore in their forums.
I did submit reviews of items I'd gotten comp copies of for a while longer, but eventually I stopped doing that too.
Okay, my digression is over.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 06:20:35 AMQuote from: yosemitemike on January 27, 2025, 06:15:38 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on January 27, 2025, 05:59:32 AMIn practice, there is little difference. People here "play the game" and get around Pundit's rules all the time. It would be nice if the non-politics sections actually stayed that way, but that's not whats really going on. Fuzzy rules with weak enforcement has a downside.
I would say that the difference in outcomes between there and here demonstrates that there is a lot of difference.
We get less people banned here, but we also get more off-topic politics splattered everywhere.
Nobody plays games to get around the rules, what happens is we all start mouthing off and derail a thread. Then Pundit comes in and tells everyone to knock it off, and we do.