Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 10:29:21 PM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 07:42:55 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 06:51:51 PMEvery term will be watered down and misused. The alternative is to stop talking about anything contentious.

it's not a zero sum game. you can and should moderate and gatekeep your own side.

Good advice, but I claim no side, so I don't know who I'd moderate or gatekeep.

Plus there's also the issue of the sides trying to obscure issues by pretending the labels are the problem, not the topics people bring up.

Quotenor is the alternative to throw in the towel.  your fox news watching parents should stay in their lane and stop dulling and watering down every tool the Right uses, period.

Nobody should "stay in their lane". That's authoritarian social manipulation to silence dissent.

1. using sloppy labels does far more damage to obscure the topic than anything.

2. "Muh  that's authoritarian"  masterfully baiting this hard, in public no less.

It's interesting when you go back and see how Golarion was originally presented, it was a fairly mature setting, some would even argue "Edge Lord" in many respects. It's been watered down and all it's edges slowly sanded off.

I cancelled my own subscription, so I can finally stop trying to gaslight myself into thinking I prefer overly complex rules.

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 17, 2025, 11:32:34 PMIt's interesting when you go back and see how Golarion was originally presented, it was a fairly mature setting, some would even argue "Edge Lord" in many respects. It's been watered down and all it's edges slowly sanded off.

I cancelled my own subscription, so I can finally stop trying to gaslight myself into thinking I prefer overly complex rules.

Pathfinder has always been too complex and crunchy for my tastes, but I really like the books I have for 1E.  I mine them for ideas.  Mostly the good artwork, as inspiration.  Just look at those bestiaries.

It's a shame that they have chosen to become ambassadors for wokeness. 

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 11:24:29 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 10:29:21 PM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 07:42:55 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 06:51:51 PMEvery term will be watered down and misused. The alternative is to stop talking about anything contentious.

it's not a zero sum game. you can and should moderate and gatekeep your own side.

Good advice, but I claim no side, so I don't know who I'd moderate or gatekeep.

Plus there's also the issue of the sides trying to obscure issues by pretending the labels are the problem, not the topics people bring up.

Quotenor is the alternative to throw in the towel.  your fox news watching parents should stay in their lane and stop dulling and watering down every tool the Right uses, period.

Nobody should "stay in their lane". That's authoritarian social manipulation to silence dissent.

1. using sloppy labels does far more damage to obscure the topic than anything.

I disagree, for the previously stated reason.

Quote2. "Muh  that's authoritarian"  masterfully baiting this hard, in public no less.

If you just want to say "Nuh Uh!", I'll leave you to it.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 05:36:53 PMAlso just like Woke was a proud label before being turned on it's head, so was Fascist, Fascist as a word has Roman symbology and connotation (a bundle of sticks) as such many early fascists between the 1920s and 40s would have proudly called themselves such.

I don't consider it to be a fair comparison at all and only technically correct (which is admittedly the best kind for a rules lawyer!). One (woke) is literally being used both initially by and later against the very same people who invented it where as the other (fascist) is being hypocritically used exclusively as an insult to a completely unrelated group of people from a different continent almost a century later.   If the term "woke" was widely in use in the post WW2 era then you may have had a point but that's not the case.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 13, 2025, 11:00:21 AMThe Paizo line is old news from August of 2024. What makes some guy's three lines on it significant enough for a thread now?

Only a drag queen would ask that question, lol.

Quote from: RNGm on January 18, 2025, 08:49:36 AM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 05:36:53 PMAlso just like Woke was a proud label before being turned on it's head, so was Fascist, Fascist as a word has Roman symbology and connotation (a bundle of sticks) as such many early fascists between the 1920s and 40s would have proudly called themselves such.

I don't consider it to be a fair comparison at all and only technically correct (which is admittedly the best kind for a rules lawyer!). One (woke) is literally being used both initially by and later against the very same people who invented it where as the other (fascist) is being hypocritically used exclusively as an insult to a completely unrelated group of people from a different continent almost a century later.   If the term "woke" was widely in use in the post WW2 era then you may have had a point but that's not the case.

I feel sort of the same regarding your argument, to put it bluntly it's pedantic and misses the heart of the issue altogether.

to  punctuate on this point, both Woke and Fascist as terms have under gone the same metamorphism overtime. back in the early 2010s blood sports debates era, one very clever rejoinder a Rightoid could make to a Leftist was to "define Fascism" after the accusation had been slung. this almost always put the Leftist on the backfoot as they failed to actually define it. The Leftists wisely stopped taking that bait altogether because they understood how watered downed the term had become

I've seen in real time this same metamorphism to Woke as a label. where Leftists asked "Define Woke" or "Define CRT" or likewise and many a Rightoid utterly stammering or failing to give a proper definition because most of them had just heard it in passing and really didn't get it.  and just like the Left before, they just stopped taking that bait, but the damage has been done.

to punctuate on this point even further: this is why Woke-Right died on conception, the term had no weight or energy behind it, there was no way to reweaponize and it came off as the psyop it was. both labels are reduced mudslinging snarl words, plain and simple.

EDIT: The bigger problem with Piazo is they seem entitled to the books they've already sold you, but everyone got tangled on the sacred cow that was their  favorite schoolyard insult being denigrated by me and just jumped on that point.



 

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 11:24:29 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 10:29:21 PM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 07:42:55 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 17, 2025, 06:51:51 PMEvery term will be watered down and misused. The alternative is to stop talking about anything contentious.

it's not a zero sum game. you can and should moderate and gatekeep your own side.

Good advice, but I claim no side, so I don't know who I'd moderate or gatekeep.

Plus there's also the issue of the sides trying to obscure issues by pretending the labels are the problem, not the topics people bring up.

But I do think "If you don't think like I do, We don't want you playing our games", is an accurate use of woke.

Quotenor is the alternative to throw in the towel.  your fox news watching parents should stay in their lane and stop dulling and watering down every tool the Right uses, period.

Nobody should "stay in their lane". That's authoritarian social manipulation to silence dissent.

1. using sloppy labels does far more damage to obscure the topic than anything

Like "your fox news watching parents".  I hear this one a lot.  People think everyone who has a center to right point of view watches/gets their ideas from Fox News.

But I think that "If you don't think like us, we don't want you playing our games", like Piazo, is an accurate use of "woke".

Quote from: Cathode Ray on January 18, 2025, 02:48:01 PMLike "your fox news watching parents".  I hear this one a lot.  People think everyone who has a center to right point of view watches/gets their ideas from Fox News.

But I think that "If you don't think like us, we don't want you playing our games", like Piazo, is an accurate use of "woke".

I'd more often describe myself as a Goldwater conservative than really anything else, and even I find Fox News to be total dribble, and mainstream news a whole, I still find to many of my fellows partaking in the retardation of cable TV news.

Quote from: RNGm on January 18, 2025, 08:49:36 AM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 05:36:53 PMAlso just like Woke was a proud label before being turned on it's head, so was Fascist, Fascist as a word has Roman symbology and connotation (a bundle of sticks) as such many early fascists between the 1920s and 40s would have proudly called themselves such.

I don't consider it to be a fair comparison at all and only technically correct (which is admittedly the best kind for a rules lawyer!). One (woke) is literally being used both initially by and later against the very same people who invented it where as the other (fascist) is being hypocritically used exclusively as an insult to a completely unrelated group of people from a different continent almost a century later.   If the term "woke" was widely in use in the post WW2 era then you may have had a point but that's not the case.

Sorry, but you don't appear to know what woke meant when it was invented. It was not a catch-all for lefty positions. It's specific to African-Americans. Not trans issues. Not gay issues. Not generic DEI issues. It's only intended for "Becoming aware, and staying aware, of social and political issues affecting African Americans." That's what it meant. It's not even new as it started in the 1930s.

So no, it's not being used against just the people who themselves used it and invented it. It definitely has become a generic insult against anything perceived to be lefty, including groups that are entirely unrelated to the group it was invented by and used by originally. Just like Fascist is being used now.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 18, 2025, 06:39:15 PM

Quote from: RNGm on January 18, 2025, 08:49:36 AM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 17, 2025, 05:36:53 PMAlso just like Woke was a proud label before being turned on it's head, so was Fascist, Fascist as a word has Roman symbology and connotation (a bundle of sticks) as such many early fascists between the 1920s and 40s would have proudly called themselves such.

I don't consider it to be a fair comparison at all and only technically correct (which is admittedly the best kind for a rules lawyer!). One (woke) is literally being used both initially by and later against the very same people who invented it where as the other (fascist) is being hypocritically used exclusively as an insult to a completely unrelated group of people from a different continent almost a century later.   If the term "woke" was widely in use in the post WW2 era then you may have had a point but that's not the case.

Sorry, but you don't appear to know what woke meant when it was invented. It was not a catch-all for lefty positions. It's specific to African-Americans. Not trans issues. Not gay issues. Not generic DEI issues. It's only intended for "Becoming aware, and staying aware, of social and political issues affecting African Americans." That's what it meant. It's not even new as it started in the 1930s.

So no, it's not being used against just the people who themselves used it and invented it. It definitely has become a generic insult against anything perceived to be lefty, including groups that are entirely unrelated to the group it was invented by and used by originally. Just like Fascist is being used now.

It got generic over time and it was never in much use among the black community. The generic version saw far more use. At least thats my expirence. Maybe it was a West Coast thing or used in Europe.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 16, 2025, 03:20:56 PMSnarl words aside like "fascist" and "woke"

There's a fundamental asymmetry here in who uses these words and how.

The term fascists is often used by publishers or people who work for them and directed at customers or at least potential customers.  It's stuff like this or the various "No fascists" purity tests that progressives love to put in games.  Woke virtue signaling by calling anyone who disagrees with them a fascist is aggressive and is coming from the publishers.  It is the publisher saying, "We don't want you here" to anyone who disagrees with them.  Progressive publishers are very fond of saying that people who disagree with politically are not welcome to play their game or in their community

The term woke is mainly used by customers and directed at publishers.  I won't buy Paizo products because they are woke.  It's the customer saying, "I don't want that".  Anti-wokeness from publishers mainly consist of a simple refusal to pander to woke sensibilities.  It's stuff like putting white guys in the art and having evil races.  It's mostly stuff that was considered normal in ttrpgs before about a decade ago.  I have never seen the performative virtue signaling and purity tests from right-leaning publishers.  I have never seen a "No wokies allowed" disclaimer in a game from a right-leaning publishers or seen one saying that there's "No space for progressives" in their game.  They just don't put in a lot of stuff to please the woke types.  I have never seen a right-leaning publisher say that progressive types are not welcome to buy or play their products or talk about players as a community that they own.   

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 19, 2025, 05:19:48 AMI have never seen the performative virtue signaling and purity tests from right-leaning publishers.

I'll highlight this specific thing because everything else in this thread has been talked to death by others, scroll any youtube channel right now that has a right wing bent and covers news and you'll find plenty of clickbaity thumbnails saying "anti-woke" soy facing over something advertising itself as "not woke" or "anti-woke" (regardless if its actually good or not) The Right-Wing definitely has performative signaling and purity tests.

Now what makes it more tolerable in Right-Wing circles is they don't exclude people, they simply state "if you like this product buy it, if not, don't" simple as, and they have a path of redemption, you can actually walk back statements and be forgiven. but it doesn't make it any less performative, and they can also get preachy in their own way.


While it's far less common in in the TTRPG sense, plenty of creators advertise how not woke they are, RPGpudent comes to mind, as does the Red Room, The Basic Expert, I could go on, plenty of their streams and videos they directly advertise and signal to their in-groups that they are "anti-woke". now unlike the the Left they don't contaminate their products with their own ideology (typically) but again no less performative.

When it comes to my hobbies I'm very apolitical despite me being quite right-populist in my private life, I had grandparents who watched the 700 club and thought D&D had literal satanic spirits in, I'm perfectly aware of how performative and stupid both sides can be when unchecked. I oppose moralists and mudslingers in all forms.

EDIT:  "is Woke = fascist in terms of snarl words?" as a debate/question is basically culture war derailment and I shouldn't surprise that was the part of my first comment that spiraled this, but the truth is Piazo should be panned over the idiocy of thinking they are entitled to products post sale, that's the kind of idiocy that transcends partisan politics altogether.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 19, 2025, 02:25:22 PMThe Right-Wing definitely has performative signaling and purity tests.

Show me three examples of this in published rpgs written by right-leaning creators.  I don't mean people opposing woke content in games.  I mean statements to the effect that woke people are not allowed to play the game or that there is no room for them in "the community".  I mean from the publishers or creators themselves.  I have never seen this.

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 19, 2025, 08:59:57 PM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 19, 2025, 02:25:22 PMThe Right-Wing definitely has performative signaling and purity tests.

Show me three examples of this in published rpgs written by right-leaning creators.  I don't mean people opposing woke content in games.  I mean statements to the effect that woke people are not allowed to play the game or that there is no room for them in "the community".  I mean from the publishers or creators themselves.  I have never seen this.

 if you had read anything past that line you would have seen the caveats I had to that sentence, but whatever.

though in full honesty I haven't seen this from  right leaning creators as much, given all of the major studies, Chaosium, Green Ronin, WOTC, Piazo,  are all Left-wing, so not many Right-Wing examples as they tend to be indie and thus don't want to lose an audience.

Though I could find examples, such as Kenneth Molyneaux, or Varg Vikernes. creators of RaHoWa and MYFAROG respectively. but I doubt you'd count those.

EDIT. Even Pundit has said these people shouldn't be designing RPGs, (Woke, Far Left-leaning) which is just a much more polite form of purity test/ signaling, and I don't even necessarily disagree with him, but pretending the Right has no tribalism or purity tests or performative signaling is a joke I'm not willing to dignify.