I don't care if they're white, black, asian, elves, drow, or succubi (hell, bonus points if they're succubi!), just please make sure you (WoTC) include the same kind of fantastic and mouth-watering images as certain past editions had; both for the sake of the principles of high adventure that D&D stands for, for the traditions, and of course for the youth of today; as well as for the purely logical commercial considerations which should be the main driving force in your attempt to create a new edition of D&D (and not some misguided attempt to listen to the simpering whining of a group of people who mostly don't actually play D&D and WON'T play D&D regardless of what you do, and whose only interest is to push forward an essentially anti-gaming agenda).
So please, by all means, make your art diverse, interesting, fantastical, and representative of a variety of races and colours, but don't follow some douchebag's quota-system demands; and please by all means show women in positions of strength and valour, and some of them can even be fully clothed! But don't be afraid to also present the representations of women in your D&D art as hot babes meant to fire up the imagination; this too is part of the imagery of western fantasy, and this shouldn't be whitewashed away for the sake of a group of politically correct pseudo-activists that don't really care about diversity or inclusiveness as much as feeling smug about themselves. I'm sure that if you do include stunning and impressive art that includes beautiful women; real gamers everywhere (be they white, black, brown, or asian, male or female, or of any part of the gender spectrum) will thank you.
There, now I just need someone to put this thing up on that retarded "online petitions" site.
RPGPundit
I'd sign.
I think it's great to see a female paladin in full plate, but there's nothing wrong with an ocassional 'damsel in distress', either.
Hehe. So maybe I'll burn in some sort of politically insensitive hell for this, but this thread made me chuckle.
Change.org (http://www.change.org/guides/start-your-online-petition) online petitions.
I'd start it now, but I have to go to work.
I have a few thoughts on this
* Internet crusaders and white knights demanding quotas make me roll my eyes (internet crusades mean nothing. What you doing in real life to help equality? And before I get quoted out of context somewhere, I'm a long time member of my local PRIDE group)
* White males telling minorities that they should in fact be offended when they otherwise aren't makes me gag a little (and yes, I have a mixed race immediate family, so I see this a lot, usually by people who are trying to get some sort of "minority cred").
* companies have always tried to appeal to their greatest target demographic. That's just life that every company does. And who is the greatest target demographic of RPGs?
that being said...
* I don't think D&D ever had a shortage of "hot babes", so demanding they be included seems a bit off. Sort of reminds me of those people who complain that since there is BET, there needs to be a WET. o_O
* I don't think chainmail bikinis and Boris V style art should really be in the core books. If you want a supplement that focuses on the sword and sorcery theme ala the 70s? I'm all for that just like I'm for a sourcebook for just about every theme. But not in core books. Times change. They might have been acceptable in the 70s, but so were shows like "Laugh-In". Nowdays, not so much.
* If you're gonna have hot babes, better have hot men as well.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;579719* Internet crusaders and white knights demanding quotas make me roll my eyes (internet crusades mean nothing. What you doing in real life to help equality? And before I get quoted out of context somewhere, I'm a long time member of my local PRIDE group)
A person's behavior on the internet could well have impact in the real world, especially in a situation where peer groups can develop.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;579719* White males telling minorities that they should in fact be offended when they otherwise aren't makes me gag a little (and yes, I have a mixed race immediate family, so I see this a lot, usually by people who are trying to get some sort of "minority cred").
I get offended when white males are assessed an 'opinion quota', too. The best kind of tolerance is not situational.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;579719* I don't think D&D ever had a shortage of "hot babes", so demanding they be included seems a bit off. Sort of reminds me of those people who complain that since there is BET, there needs to be a WET. o_O
The best kind of tolerance is not situational. Frankly, there should not be a BET as far as I am concerned. Voluntarily using the 'colored water fountain' because it has a shorter line is just a racist as there being one in the first place. I liken this to women accepting lower pay. Yes, there is a glass ceiling for women, and the fault rests squarely at the feet of all those women who settle for lower pay for the same position. If not for that downward competitive pressure, equality would be possible.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;579719* I don't think chainmail bikinis and Boris V style art should really be in the core books. If you want a supplement that focuses on the sword and sorcery theme ala the 70s? I'm all for that just like I'm for a sourcebook for just about every theme. But not in core books. Times change. They might have been acceptable in the 70s, but so were shows like "Laugh-In". Nowdays, not so much.
If it exists in the world, it should probably get represented in the core book. Personally, I think sexy people can and do happen in a game world. I think deliberately excluding them isn't very realistic, particularly when you're not going to find such homely examples as, say, Paizo's iconics in any magazine on the shelf. Even the stars of the Food Network tend to be more charismatic than these heroes.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;579719* If you're gonna have hot babes, better have hot men as well.
Amen, and please put at least one on the cover. There are almost certainly hot men in the campaign world somewhere, too.
Quote from: mcbobbo;579722A person's behavior on the internet could well have impact in the real world, especially in a situation where peer groups can develop.
I was mainly referring to the guy who gets all indignant on the internet about how certain people aren't treated fairly, but does Jack and Shit in real life to actually do anything about it because it's too much effort or something.
QuoteThe best kind of tolerance is not situational. Frankly, there should not be a BET as far as I am concerned. Voluntarily using the 'colored water fountain' because it has a shorter line is just a racist as there being one in the first place. I liken this to women accepting lower pay. Yes, there is a glass ceiling for women, and the fault rests squarely at the feet of all those women who settle for lower pay for the same position.
Sorry, but I really have to disagree with this. Too often, women (and others) take that lower pay because it's that or nothing. And you can't eat on nothing. The above completely ignores exploitation, which is the real problem. Not the person accepting lower pay.
Come on folks, don't drag this up to a serious conversation!
I fancy Pundit is remote trolling certain areas of the intertubes.
Whenever I read those threads I can't help but be reminded of all the theological examinations I've read where the inquisitor is just dying for their subject to screw up and say something damnable. And if they don't, well, he'll supply it for them.
My general impression of petition threads is that people are fabulously eager to demonstrate how wise, pure-minded, enlightened, and noble they are in ways that actually don't require any effort whatsoever. I don't recall any of the shriekers putting out so much as a Joesky-tax blogpost of actual gaming content that reflects what they'd like to see but to listen to them you'd think they had cover credit on Tekumel. I'd take them a lot more seriously if they actually fired up a word processor or paint program and actually showed us the kind of product that was good enough for their delicate sensibilities. They will never do this, because that would require effort.
All this shrieking irritated me so much that I'm writing a game (http://www.sinenomine-pub.com/?p=307) in answer, Spears of the Dawn. It's not hard to write a game, or to find artists, or to publish it. It requires a certain minimal level of effort, yes, but heaven knows you don't need to be a genius to do it. Hell, you don't even need to be capable of functioning in modern society if some game authors are any indication.
I expect to take another month to finish the game's text. Longer to get the art complete, though I've got $1,500 worth of it parceled out right now and expect to spend another thousand before I'm done. All of the art and the InDesign templates will be released into the public domain after I'm done so other people can try their hand at it and make something better. People say they don't have the money to commission they art they want? If only there were a way to put money toward a project of communal interest (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sarahdarkmagic/prismatic-art-collection).
The whole business just makes my teeth hurt. It's so easy to make the kind of content you want to see, but these people would rather spend their emotional energy polishing their halos with a useless petition site than actually show people awesome things. They're using an entire continent as a prop in their own little psychodrama of purity and extremely visible enlightenment, and I find it flatly offensive. Africa does not need their help, okay? Africa is pretty awesome exactly as it is, and it does not require quota counts established by marginally functional game nerds for multinational corporations to tell a goddamn story. Medieval Africa has were-leopard cults, actual amazon warriors that don't require ahistorical padding to justify, sorcerer-kings, fabulous golden treasures, libraries crammed with books of ancient lore, turbaned chain-armored cavalry lancers, gigantic thatch-roofed palaces, gigantic stone palaces, ruthless intrigue in those palaces, complex theological structures and the most elegant-looking swords (http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=62) in the world. If you can't make compelling gaming content out of that it better be because you're in a coma.
The 5E game development has left me so full of meh I don't even care what the art will be like.
Yes, well that is all well and good, but will your new game have hot babes?
That's all we really need to know.
This is from the 'worst art in RPGs thread'
Quote from: misterguignol;458360Less talk and more pictures, you fuckers.
Anyway, this is hardly the worst art to happen in the history of rpgs, but it's always bothered me:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/misterguignol/Bad%20Art/ADV_strahd_s.jpg)
You'd think that the fact that all vampires in Ravenloft are blue-skinned would be a dead give away.
Seriously, why is Strahd a fucking Smurf???
But this is an example of the type of art I really miss. We're not at 'chain mail bikini' levels of exploitation, but it's hard to argue that it isn't an attractive woman.
But this is one of my all-time favorite pieces of fantasy art:
http://dave.monkeymartian.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Dragon126DanielHorne.jpg
This is the cover of Dragon 126. The woman is fully dressed (she's in the snow, after all), and while her outfit is far from revealing she still strikes me as attractive.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;579731But this is one of my all-time favorite pieces of fantasy art:
http://dave.monkeymartian.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Dragon126DanielHorne.jpg
This is the cover of Dragon 126. The woman is fully dressed (she's in the snow, after all), and while her outfit is far from revealing she still strikes me as attractive.
Heh. I knew exactly what piece you were talking about without ever clicking that link. It's one of my favorites as well. Damn, Dragon has some good art back in the day.
Other covers that resonated well with me? The wizard on the chessboard and the dragon through the cockpit of an F-14.
I want the games I play to have art of attractive people of both sexes. In fact, ideally I would only have attractive people in the art. I don't want all of them to be sexualised, but there should be a nice distribution*. Why, because I think it's fair to give men and women the same treatment, and also because I like playing prettyboys so I want appropriate art for that.
It's probably unfair for fans of ugly people but, well, sorry? You can't please everyone...
Incidentally Anima art pretty much does this, there are a lot of dark skinned, Middle Eastern and Oriental people in the art, probably more women than men even, and nearly everyone looks really good. It is quite glorious.
*I decided against using the word "spread".
Quote from: Soylent Green;579730Yes, well that is all well and good, but will your new game have hot babes?
That's all we really need to know.
It's old-school D&D with faux-African setting assumptions instead of faux-European ones. Given my unflagging respect for tradition, of
course it will have hot babes.
Quote from: RPGPundit;579711I don't care if they're white, black, asian, elves, drow, or succubi (hell, bonus points if they're succubi!), just please make sure you (WoTC) include the same kind of fantastic and mouth-watering images as certain past editions had; both for the sake of the principles of high adventure that D&D stands for, for the traditions, and of course for the youth of today; as well as for the purely logical commercial considerations which should be the main driving force in your attempt to create a new edition of D&D (and not some misguided attempt to listen to the simpering whining of a group of people who mostly don't actually play D&D and WON'T play D&D regardless of what you do, and whose only interest is to push forward an essentially anti-gaming agenda).
So please, by all means, make your art diverse, interesting, fantastical, and representative of a variety of races and colours, but don't follow some douchebag's quota-system demands; and please by all means show women in positions of strength and valour, and some of them can even be fully clothed! But don't be afraid to also present the representations of women in your D&D art as hot babes meant to fire up the imagination; this too is part of the imagery of western fantasy, and this shouldn't be whitewashed away for the sake of a group of politically correct pseudo-activists that don't really care about diversity or inclusiveness as much as feeling smug about themselves. I'm sure that if you do include stunning and impressive art that includes beautiful women; real gamers everywhere (be they white, black, brown, or asian, male or female, or of any part of the gender spectrum) will thank you.
There, now I just need someone to put this thing up on that retarded "online petitions" site.
RPGPundit
Finally the voice of reason!
Petition for sexy D&D art? Where do I sign?
Quote from: SineNomine;579728All this shrieking irritated me so much that I'm writing a game (http://www.sinenomine-pub.com/?p=307) in answer, Spears of the Dawn.
God damn it, Crawford, stop publishing things I want to buy!
I stand by my former assessment (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=530752&postcount=310) that the historical and cultural variety of African peoples is a huge untapped motherlode of gameable awesomeness.
Looking forward to your new game.
Traffic numbers drooping a bit, :pundit: ?
Quote from: The Butcher;579741I stand by my former assessment[/URL] that the historical and cultural variety of African peoples is a huge untapped motherlode of gameable awesomeness.
I'd like to see a comparative review of Spears of the Dawn and Nyambe.
I wanted to like Nyambe, but somehow it just failed to be interesting. I dunno.
Quote from: daniel_ream;579748I'd like to see a comparative review of Spears of the Dawn and Nyambe.
I wanted to like Nyambe, but somehow it just failed to be interesting. I dunno.
From what I've seen with Nyambe, I think its main problem was in accessibility. It had a lot of great stuff in it, but that stuff was not organized so as to easily accommodate a typical reader. It's the same thing you see with Tekumel- fabulously intricate culture and mythological corpus, but no easy place to get a handle on it. To my mind, it's a question of where you start building from, and whether you start building from the source material or from the game activity.
With one angle, you start by sitting down and saying, "Okay, what are the most characteristic and flavorful cultures, societies, and conflicts in this setting? What do I add to make it most like the geographical and historical zone I'm targeting?" And once you've got that, you can build your pastiche knowing that it's going to be very richly flavored and built out. But you're essentially de-prioritizing the sort of activities that usually take place at a D&D gaming table, and leaving it to the GM to either see the hooks in the setting or accept the somewhat desultory efforts you've made to direct them to entry points for the sort of play they want to have. Primary fidelity is to the setting and its inspiration.
With the other angle, you start with the sort of things people want to do at a D&D table and ask how the setting can be made to accommodate them. "Okay, this game needs to provide dungeon-crawling, tolerate murderhobos, have intrigue and urban adventures, include evil wizards in need of stabbing, and supply sacks of treasure. What parts of medieval Africa support these activities?" This angle runs the risk of a more shallow and less authentic setting, because you're fundamentally making it in service of a game experience. But it also tends to be a setup that casual readers and players can much more easily bring to the table.
In both cases, the inclusion of hot babes is, obviously, a necessity for success.
Quote from: SineNomine;579728The whole business just makes my teeth hurt. It's so easy to make the kind of content you want to see, but these people would rather spend their emotional energy polishing their halos with a useless petition site than actually show people awesome things. They're using an entire continent as a prop in their own little psychodrama of purity and extremely visible enlightenment, and I find it flatly offensive. Africa does not need their help, okay?
I'm not sure what we're talking about. I had thought that this was in response to rabalias'
petition (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/522/618/587/dd-should-be-for-everyone-not-just-white-men/) for more women and non-white characters in the next D&D. That petition makes no mention of Africa.
On the one hand, I'm not thrilled with the language of his petition - and I'm not particularly taken by the other RPG material on rabalias' site (Black Armada). Still, there are plenty of people who signed the petition whose work I like a lot - such as Emily Boss and Joe McDonald. If you're criticisms are directed at these people, I think they're off base. WotC specifically asked for feedback about what people wanted to see in D&D5 - and also posted specifically asking for feedback about art in D&D5 in a
post on sexism (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dreye/20120502). No one needs special qualifications or accomplishments to give feedback about what they want to see.
Re: the original post. Personally, I don't want hot babes in D&D. I have been put off by decisions to put babes in - particularly on the cover like the chainmail bikini damsel-in-distress on the 1e DMG or the bustier-clad sorceress of the 4e PH. I much preferred the 3e covers which I could read without embarrassment on the bus or in the airport.
I have nothing against pictures of hot babes, and appreciate them at particular times and places. But D&D isn't where I want them.
Quote from: SineNomine;579728All this shrieking irritated me so much that I'm writing a game (http://www.sinenomine-pub.com/?p=307) in answer, Spears of the Dawn.
...
The whole business just makes my teeth hurt. It's so easy to make the kind of content you want to see, but these people would rather spend their emotional energy polishing their halos with a useless petition site than actually show people awesome things. They're using an entire continent as a prop in their own little psychodrama of purity and extremely visible enlightenment, and I find it flatly offensive. Africa does not need their help, okay? Africa is pretty awesome exactly as it is, and it does not require quota counts established by marginally functional game nerds for multinational corporations to tell a goddamn story. Medieval Africa has were-leopard cults, actual amazon warriors that don't require ahistorical padding to justify, sorcerer-kings, fabulous golden treasures, libraries crammed with books of ancient lore, turbaned chain-armored cavalry lancers, gigantic thatch-roofed palaces, gigantic stone palaces, ruthless intrigue in those palaces, complex theological structures and the most elegant-looking swords (http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=62) in the world. If you can't make compelling gaming content out of that it better be because you're in a coma.
Yeah, I think,
this. You have a buyer. I have wanted an African-themed game that wasn't about strict culture simulation for a long while, and you are hitting the points that make the concept interesting.
Quote from: jhkim;579772I have nothing against pictures of hot babes, and appreciate them at particular times and places. But D&D isn't where I want them.
What is hot though? My personal favourites at the moment are highly technically competent women who can beat up a gang of ninjas in the event that we should encounter the velcro fingered vagabonds whilst enjoying a nice dinner at a local restaurant. Basically a hacker/mechanic/kung fu-ist, golden skinned asians a big plus, although I'd settle for a smartass latina. I mean who doesn't want a challenging and intelligent partner?
The stripper with the improbably oversized swords does exactly nothing for me, and I'm well over my wistful waif phase should that arise.
What the shrieks are really complaining about is the depiction of compliant white large breasted blonde women as the ideal, but of course anyone stupid enough to buy that isn't going to get near one, and as a result is probably better off out of the gene pool anyway.
So bring on the busty alabaster skinned flaxen haired maidens, but don't expect me to buy your product on that basis. In fact they are so tedious they may very well count as a minus. Art involving clever, athletic and capable women on the other hand, well...
tl;dr define "hot" before declaring a petition war.
Quote from: jhkim;579772I'm not sure what we're talking about. I had thought that this was in response to rabalias' petition (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/522/618/587/dd-should-be-for-everyone-not-just-white-men/) for more women and non-white characters in the next D&D. That petition makes no mention of Africa.
It's the associated threads that make mention of Africa, and it's the associated petitioners that are making my teeth hurt. The petition itself is harmlessly useless, but the Righteousness Rays emitting from many supporters in the relevant threads are enough to make a hardshell Baptist tent preacher look like Voltaire.
I find the whole thing offensive on multiple correlated axes. First, they're using perfectly good cultures and histories as mere props for their own moral preening. I'm sure some actual creators have signed the petition, and it may well be that some of them have actually created the kind of material this petition calls for. I gladly credit them with seriousness based on the meaningful work they have done, regarding which I suspect neither they nor I would include "clicking 'like' on a petition". The rest? Well, clicking like is about the extent of the effort they're willing to put into it.
Second, they're aiming in the wrong direction. They're trying to encourage what they openly admit is a highly unusual art and design profile for the flagship property of an industry titan that has recently found itself quite possibly looking at being in second place. This titan is being beaten down by a company that is selling an old version of their product. This is not a situation that encourages radical redefinition of IP.
WotC is not necessary. There is no more intermediary gatekeeper between the game creator and the gaming public. Every ounce of effort spent coaxing WotC to add a third pigment to their fleshtone palette is an ounce of effort spent in a fundamentally useless pursuit. Anyone and everyone can create exactly the game content they want to see and can share it with the entire planet. They can even get paid for it sometimes. With the tech we have available and the existing infrastructure of artists, writers, POD printers and online storefronts, the only limit to your ability to articulate a given vision is the extent of your determination to do so. Pundit wanted a game rooted in classical India, so he made the game. These petitioners wanted a game with more than two skin tones and half a bikini split between the women, so they should
make that game.
It would be harmless if people were just "giving feedback" with this petition. If they were just clicking like and going on with their day. But people who blow this up into a grand statement of principle, into some kind of warped participation award of righteousness against the heathen unenlightened hordes who have yet to perceive the Real Need this Meaningfully Addresses, are actually working
against the final situation they'd like to see. They're implicitly condemning the aesthetic of the hobby and waiting for someone else to save it, when all the while they could just pick up a word processor or a sketch pencil and do it themselves.
Because when it comes down to it, petitions won't make a tinker's damn worth of difference to WotC. You want to make them produce the kind of products you like? Make another Pathfinder and watch them spin.
Quote from: SineNomine;579795These petitioners wanted a game with more than two skin tones and half a bikini split between the women, so they should make that game.
Apropos of nothing: this is how we solve this problem in software engineering, too.
"BLAH BLAH BLAH is broken stupid Micro$oft why aren't they using the boolean anti-binary least squares approach"
"Well, if you feel so strongly about it and it's so easy to fix, you should be able to knock out a quick proof of concept by next week's status meeting. I look forward to seeing your prototype."
TL;DR: man up or GTFO.
Quote from: SineNomine;579728All this shrieking irritated me so much that I'm writing a game (http://www.sinenomine-pub.com/?p=307) in answer, Spears of the Dawn. It's not hard to write a game, or to find artists, or to publish it. It requires a certain minimal level of effort, yes, but heaven knows you don't need to be a genius to do it. Hell, you don't even need to be capable of functioning in modern society if some game authors are any indication.
Sold, sir.
I think Pundit should just pay his $10 and troll SA directly.
I think RPGNet needs it's own fantasy game, where all the men are gorgeous and gay, and all the women weigh over 300 pounds.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;579719White males telling minorities that they should in fact be offended when they otherwise aren't makes me gag a little (and yes, I have a mixed race immediate family, so I see this a lot, usually by people who are trying to get some sort of "minority cred").
Or race apologists of any kind.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;579715I'd sign.
I think it's great to see a female paladin in full plate, but there's nothing wrong with an ocassional 'damsel in distress', either.
Ever see "Fire & Ice"? The princess was total cheesecake AND she kept rescuing herself every time she was captured.
It was win-win.
Quote from: danbuter;579826I think RPGNet needs it's own fantasy game, where all the men are gorgeous and gay, and all the women weigh over 300 pounds.
PRIVILEDGE The RPG!This game only has one stat...Priviledge. Your score is found by adding up the following modifiers...
Are you...
White? +10
Black? -10
Other visible minority? -5
invisible minority -1
Male +10
Female -10
Transexual -20
Heterosexual +10
Homosexual -10
Bi -5
American +50
University Educated? +10
Rich? +50
Middle class? +10
Lower class? -10
Poor/Homeless? -20
A feminist? -5
ugly? -5
fat? -5
Add up your rerspective modifiers to get your Priviledge Index! This will be used for online fights!
Combat system...
Characters compare their respective Priviledge scores, and the one with the highest Priviledge goes first and must make a reasoned argument. This is a straight d100 roll with no modifiers.
The attacker (the character with lower Priviledge) then subtracts the difference in their Priviledge score from their opponenet's from their opponent's reasoned argument score along with a bonus from any of the following tactics they can work into their rebuttal:
Personal attack -1 (cumulative)
Misdirection -5
Strawman -5
"What About the Menz?" -10
I don't feel like I'm "safe" when this person expresses their opinion online -10
When did you stop beating your wife? -5
The Godwin -10
(Providing a link to Derailing for Dummies) -10
"Blaming the victim" -10
If the attacker is able to reduce the reasoned argument to zero, then they win! The loser must roll 1d10 and consultthe consequences chart:
1 - 2 - You're a racist nazi shithead
2 - 5 - You're a sexist agent of the Patriarchy
3 - 7 - You're opinion is invalid because you are white and/or male (even if you're not)
8 - 9 - You've been threadbanned by a mod!
10 - You're a rape-supporter
If the attacker fails to reduce their opponent's reasoned argument to zero, they take the remainding points in Butthurt. When a character's butthurt reaches 100 points, they explode in flames and self-pity.
Quote from: Ladybird;579817I think Pundit should just pay his $10 and troll SA directly.
Give me an email and I'll pay for the account.
Pathfinder Iconic's are homely? I think they fall pretty distinctly in the gorgeous and busty category. A few don't, but on average it's a very attractive lot.
I find it odd that chainmail bikinis show up occasionally in fantasy RPG artwork but I've yet to see them on any of the equipment lists.
Maybe I'll start a petition for that.
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/Untitled-1copy.jpg)
heh...sorry, the blander they make D&D the more people will go elsewhere. Viva le Revolution!
Quote from: Ladybird;579817Sold, sir.
I think Pundit should just pay his $10 and troll SA directly.
Not for long. The mods there seem to flip their shit easier than in rpg.net.
Quote from: Soylent Green;579730Yes, well that is all well and good, but will your new game have hot babes?
That's all we really need to know.
I have no idea. I'm not the one doing the art. There's a very good chance it'll have an image of an Indian Succubus. Aside from that, its not likely.
It also may end up being the first RPG I know of to feature a transgender person on the cover.
RPGPundit
Quote from: TristramEvans;579860
PRIVILEDGE The RPG!
Like Troll : The Provoking (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue9/troll1.html)?
Fuck it, I'd do it as a 3:16 hack if I wanted it on the tabletop. Sites, posters, arguments, likes... yeah, it translates well enough.
(http://www.ratemymotivational.com/motivationals/13603-RPG_ARTWORK-Lets_face_it_a_lot_of_it_is_porn.jpg)
Couple of serious questions regarding the RPG.net feminist/queer/PC culture (however you want to characterize or name it, you know what I mean):
Is it just me, or has it absolutely exploded and taken over the boards during the last 6-12 months?
And if so, is this a reflection of movement in the wider culture?
My theory is that the main demographic of gamers (30s and 40s American white males) are a quivering blubbery mass of low testosterone pussies, particularly as they reach middle age, and sink back into a morass of domination by their boss at work and their harridan, bovine wives at home. In the depths of self-loathing, the most hateful thing imaginable is the expression of exuberant, confident male heterosexuality that they used to dream of. Stockholme syndrome further binds them to the oppressors, thus we get mass pandering.
Rand and Kai Tave became mods and banned anyone and everyone who even mildly hinted that they weren't 100% in support of "the gay lifestyle". Also, they have banned a ton of people who weren't 100% in favor of D&D 4e.
I'm still trying to figure out this one (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?645895-Infraction-for-cmdicely-5%29-Seven-Day-Ban):
Originally Posted by redwulf25_ci
Can all y'all who are upset by this petition explain what's wrong with it? You know, in a way that doesn't make you sound massively racist.
cmdicely: the very definition of quotas and restrictions placed on artists based on race is racist
Killfalcon: 7 day ban for cmdicely!
o_O
redwulf just pretty much implied that anyone against the petition is a racist, but it's the other guy, a guy who I don't recall has ever gotten a warning in the past 10 years, who gets banned.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;579731But this is one of my all-time favorite pieces of fantasy art:
http://dave.monkeymartian.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Dragon126DanielHorne.jpg
This is the cover of Dragon 126. The woman is fully dressed (she's in the snow, after all), and while her outfit is far from revealing she still strikes me as attractive.
thirded/fourth'd, etc. absolutely yes, one of my ATFs as well!
Yes, and for the record now, they want to ban not only the bikini chainmail but the Drow, too.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;580020Couple of serious questions regarding the RPG.net feminist/queer/PC culture (however you want to characterize or name it, you know what I mean):
Is it just me, or has it absolutely exploded and taken over the boards during the last 6-12 months?
And if so, is this a reflection of movement in the wider culture?
No, its a total bubble. Its the product of years and years of Modclique culture there pandering to particular extremists while banning anyone who thought otherwise or wouldn't likewise pander. And what it creates is a "hothouse flower" environment, where the people who post regularly to tangency.net actually believe they somehow represent a "mainstream" view and its everyone else who's way out in left field somehow.
Witness the thread we're mocking here, when one poster appeared to be literally SHOCKED that this petition to try to ban art they didn't like wouldn't be received with open arms elsewhere, and utterly STUNNED to find out that "there are forums that are actually Worse than RPG.net"; because in said posters' mind RPG.net is far far too permissive of free speech and full of evil flaming homophobe racist privileged bad guys who are still a long way from being put under control to create an Emotionally Safe Environment for them.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;580070Yes, and for the record now, they want to ban not only the bikini chainmail but the Drow, too.
RPGPundit
Personally, I don't care for Drow very much because I think they've been done to death thanks to Salvatore.
But good luck with that. I hope they let us know how that turns out.
If WOTC artists put tattoos all over their D&D characters (and monsters) in their books, more tattooed-covered people would play the game. Fill the book with metrosexual looking characters, and the game halls will fill up with them also. Fill the books with big fat greasy balding dudes with hardly any females in the book, and you end up with a game room filled with Warhammer players.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;580092If WOTC artists put tattoos all over their D&D characters (and monsters) in their books, more tattooed-covered people would play the game. Fill the book with metrosexual looking characters, and the game halls will fill up with them also. Fill the books with big fat greasy balding dudes with hardly any females in the book, and you end up with a game room filled with Warhammer players.
So what you're saying is that we need fat, greasy, tatooed metrosexuals on all the pages and the game is instant success?
You need to take that to ENWorld quick! They might even cut you a profit sharing deal :)
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;580020Couple of serious questions regarding the RPG.net feminist/queer/PC culture (however you want to characterize or name it, you know what I mean):
Is it just me, or has it absolutely exploded and taken over the boards during the last 6-12 months?
And if so, is this a reflection of movement in the wider culture?
I've spotted a couple of manufactured hysterias along the same lines in other geeky segments of society recently, most recently at Defcon, the paticipants of which unlike most others have absolutely no difficulty digging up names and backgrounds on the participants and publishing them. It seems to be liberal arts types who are responsible for the most part, activists without a cause.
Near as I can tell they are targeting certain predominantly male occupied pastimes and occupations under the delusion that it's PATRIARCHY at work rather than chronically shy socially backwards nerds who would be only delighted to have more women involved.
So in they storm, love handles aflap in a traditional dominance display, while the retiring types still haven't figured out that not all women are nice people, and mostly fall in behind the buffoons in the hopes of maybe a conversation or something with a female not on IRC.
Its a whirlwind of confusion and unrivalled stupidity, but erring on the side of caution, the liberal arts people started condemning random individuals and setting up camp. They don't know why it was so easy to overthrow this bastion of male power, but they aren't ones to look a gift horse in the mouth.
That, in short, is rpgnet.
When the penny dropped on this crap I felt like a CoC investigator that had discovered the secret of Cthulhu, except instead of horror it was a struggle not to slip into the loving arms of insanity due to the volume of concentrated stupid involved.
No, its not a reflection of wider society.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;580108So what you're saying is that we need fat, greasy, tatooed metrosexuals on all the pages and the game is instant success?
The trick is to find the right combination that will cyphon from the largest income pool, while taking care not to over-spend research funds on focus groups, control groups, and recovering RPGer groups.
But it would not kill WOTC to put booth babes at their vendor tables.
Quote from: RPGPundit;579945It also may end up being the first RPG I know of to feature a transgender person on the cover.
RPGPundit
In a situation where everyone is allowed to chose their own gender , isn't transgenderism made redundant?
I will only sign the petition if it means hot dark elven women will show up at my house. Preferably not to torture or kill me.
Man, people here really care a lot about what is said over at RPGnet. I haven't been there in ages, but it seems like I would have to read there to get what's going on here.
Quote from: SineNomine;579795It's the associated threads that make mention of Africa, and it's the associated petitioners that are making my teeth hurt. The petition itself is harmlessly useless, but the Righteousness Rays emitting from many supporters in the relevant threads are enough to make a hardshell Baptist tent preacher look like Voltaire.
OK. I've read here, the petition, and a thread at Story Games. (I've just browsed a thread at the WotC community thread now, too.) I had some quibbles with the petition, but it's basically fine and after some thought I've now signed it.
Another two cents:
1) It's not necessarily racism to have a product aimed at a particular demographic, including race. A show might target older white women as its target audience, or Asian teens, or young black men. However, D&D isn't like a show and there's no reason for it to be narrowly targeted like this.
2) It's not racism to request particular races in illustrations. Like with the above - if my product is aimed at black men, I might tell my hired illustrator to put a black man on the cover. That isn't necessarily racism. Likewise, customer feedback of "we want more minorities" or even "we want at least 20% people of color" isn't racism.
Quote from: SineNomine;579795WotC is not necessary. There is no more intermediary gatekeeper between the game creator and the gaming public. Every ounce of effort spent coaxing WotC to add a third pigment to their fleshtone palette is an ounce of effort spent in a fundamentally useless pursuit. Anyone and everyone can create exactly the game content they want to see and can share it with the entire planet. They can even get paid for it sometimes.
So it isn't necessary, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. WotC customers still can and should expect that the company will at least listen to what they want - especially so if WotC asked for feedback.
Yes, you can put your own game out there - and I approve of that. However, it's easy to put a game out there, but it's hard to put one out that anyone gives a damn about. There are thousands of RPGs out there - I have over 850 on my free RPG list and over 1500 in my encyclopedia. Making a tiny difference in what WotC produces is likely to affect the gaming community a lot more than yet another hastily-produced indie RPG.
I'm much more interested in if a person can make the time to come to an RPG game than what their skin color, sex, hair style, clothing brand, CMOS battery type, atmospheric sensitivity, food intake is.
Quote from: jhkim;580135Man, people here really care a lot about what is said over at RPGnet. I haven't been there in ages, but it seems like I would have to read there to get what's going on here.
The problem with rpgnet is that its likely the first place people who search for rpg forums are likely to stumble across on google, little knowing what a vastly retarded hazard they are stepping into. I'd say you could put a percentage whole-number on the amount of damage the place has done to the hobby in terms of people who have left as a result.
Quote from: jhkim;580135However, D&D isn't like a show and there's no reason for it to be narrowly targeted like this.
What? D&D has a pretty well defined demographic.
Quote from: jhkim;5801352) It's not racism to request particular races in illustrations. Like with the above - if my product is aimed at black men, I might tell my hired illustrator to put a black man on the cover. That isn't necessarily racism. Likewise, customer feedback of "we want more minorities" or even "we want at least 20% people of color" isn't racism.
I agree, and I guess the publisher of Ebony magazine would agree as well.
But then, many people go on to explain why they want what they want, and that's usually when racism of some kind can creep in.
Quote from: jhkim;580135So it isn't necessary, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. WotC customers still can and should expect that the company will at least listen to what they want - especially so if WotC asked for feedback.
Yes, you can put your own game out there - and I approve of that. However, it's easy to put a game out there, but it's hard to put one out that anyone gives a damn about. There are thousands of RPGs out there - I have over 850 on my free RPG list and over 1500 in my encyclopedia. Making a tiny difference in what WotC produces is likely to affect the gaming community a lot more than yet another hastily-produced indie RPG.
And I think the fundamental assumptions attached to the petition are actively counterproductive to bringing about the gaming ethos that its supporters purport to desire. I also think that a great many of its supporters are using it as a cheap prop to excuse themselves from actually taking more productive steps, and to feel
good about their highly public uselessness.
The petition has been up for a little under two weeks. On RPGnet alone, the thread on it has earned 35,000 views at present, and there are still less than 500 signatures on the petition. The chances that this spectacle is going to be received by WotC with anything more than a brow-furrowed nod of deep respect for the passionate feeling expressed by the members of their valued gaming community is like unto that of a snowball in Hell.
Now suppose that each one of those 496 petitioners sat down within the past two weeks and wrote a single Joesky-tax blog post about an NPC, location, organization, culture, or art piece that really suited what they wanted to see in gaming. The sidebars would be wall-to-wall with it. There'd be most of a campaign setting just sitting there for anyone who wanted to pick and choose parts to assemble. And it would take them, oh, maybe half an hour apiece if they typed slowly.
WotC is a company, and petitions are nothing more than signals to the PR center of its brain to emit the correct noises. To make it act, you need to make it afraid or you need to make it greedy. Either show it a desolate future in which it's a latter-day Palladium limping behind after Paizo's Pathfinder or show it a vast pool of people buying stuff that it could produce too. It wasn't coincidence that a public playtest for 5e kicked off with the Ur-Module of the OSR as its setpiece.
That's what influence looks like. It is earned one step at a time- one blogpost, one homebrew module, one almost-ignored indie game stacked on top of another. Even if it fails in the end, you're guaranteed to get a Hell of a lot more productive fun out of it than a half-empty petition can give you.
Quote from: SineNomine;580169Now suppose that each one of those 496 petitioners sat down within the past two weeks and wrote a single Joesky-tax blog post about an NPC, location, organization, culture, or art piece that really suited what they wanted to see in gaming. The sidebars would be wall-to-wall with it. There'd be most of a campaign setting just sitting there for anyone who wanted to pick and choose parts to assemble. And it would take them, oh, maybe half an hour apiece if they typed slowly.
I feel like you're implying a much higher value to such a collection than I would. From what you say, it's a bunch of half-hour snippets from different people with no quality control and varying setting assumptions and aesthetics. They could, say, expand the D20NPCs wiki (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page) to 700 entries instead of only 200.
I haven't found such collections useful, personally, and I don't feel like they have any influence amidst the hundreds of other free games and resources. It's more work for me to sift through all the posts to find something to use than it is for me to just create the NPC/location/whatever for myself.
Quote from: SineNomine;580169WotC is a company, and petitions are nothing more than signals to the PR center of its brain to emit the correct noises. To make it act, you need to make it afraid or you need to make it greedy. Either show it a desolate future in which it's a latter-day Palladium limping behind after Paizo's Pathfinder or show it a vast pool of people buying stuff that it could produce too. It wasn't coincidence that a public playtest for 5e kicked off with the Ur-Module of the OSR as its setpiece. That's what influence looks like. It is earned one step at a time- one blogpost, one homebrew module, one almost-ignored indie game stacked on top of another. Even if it fails in the end, you're guaranteed to get a Hell of a lot more productive fun out of it than a half-empty petition can give you.
It sounds like you're implying an either/or. Maybe that the petition shouldn't exist or people shouldn't sign it, because the 30 seconds it takes for them to sign the petition prevents them from expressing themselves in other ways? I don't get it.
I signed the petition, and I have tons of other material game material, game discussion, and so forth. It sounds to me like lots of the people who signed the petition also went on to make blog or forum posts on the topic.
Quote from: SineNomine;580169Now suppose that each one of those 496 petitioners sat down within the past two weeks and wrote a single Joesky-tax blog post about an NPC, location, organization, culture, or art piece that really suited what they wanted to see in gaming.
No, no, not again...
http://shii.org/knows/Zybourne_Clock
Quote from: jhkim;580178I feel like you're implying a much higher value to such a collection than I would. From what you say, it's a bunch of half-hour snippets from different people with no quality control and varying setting assumptions and aesthetics. They could, say, expand the D20NPCs wiki (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page) to 700 entries instead of only 200.
The absence of filters is the entire point. Of course the great majority of it will be garbage- Sturgeon's Law will not be mocked. But some of it won't be trash for certain readers and some of it won't be trash by any reasonable measure, and either way it produces more good stuff for our hobby. More significantly,
this stuff would exist, which is not a state of being apt to be induced by a half-empty petition.
QuoteI haven't found such collections useful, personally, and I don't feel like they have any influence amidst the hundreds of other free games and resources. It's more work for me to sift through all the posts to find something to use than it is for me to just create the NPC/location/whatever for myself.
That's presumably because you've already cultivated an attitude of self-provision for your fun. You are not frightened of creating your own context and building the kind of gaming you want to have. This is not the modern mindset in our hobby, and it is certainly not the mindset of people who think that humble appeals to WotC is a productive way to get a deep-seated revision of their flagship IP's aesthetic. Those people who sincerely want to broaden the gaming zeitgeist need to quit petitioning the emperor and start hammering their own plowshares into glaive-guisarmes. Enough of them do that, the emperor will do his own listening.
QuoteIt sounds like you're implying an either/or. Maybe that the petition shouldn't exist or people shouldn't sign it, because the 30 seconds it takes for them to sign the petition prevents them from expressing themselves in other ways? I don't get it.
Petty acts of virtue (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091007103030.htm) tend to make people give themselves permission to be bastards thereafter. This is visible in the rpg.net thread, where support of the petition is taken by several participants as license to be thermonuclear assholes to anyone failing to show similar enthusiasm for the idea. Hell, they're even tearing strips off fellow signatories for not supporting it
with the right mindset. It's a sight that's equal parts hilarious and contemptible, and doubtless responsible for the thunderous support the petitioner's goal has received.
It's a given that a lot of the people who signed don't give a tinker's damn for the actual goal, and just want a cheap excuse to feel better about themselves. You'll identify them as the ones with
The East Is Red for a social interaction soundtrack. They were always going to be worthless to their cause. But there are real talents and people with genuine potential in that list, and they should be encouraged to actually deploy their abilities in a way that makes the kind of gaming they want to see. The petition doesn't do it. It only depletes focus, distracts with the
gleichaltung trolls, and lets people offload their responsibility to the hobby onto the shoulders of an indifferent third party.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;580190No, no, not again...
http://shii.org/knows/Zybourne_Clock
Ironically containing less derp than jhkim's demographic-free D&D.
Go for Amnesty International. Much more worthwhile.
Quote from: SineNomine;580191Petty acts of virtue (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091007103030.htm) tend to make people give themselves permission to be bastards thereafter. This is visible in the rpg.net thread, where support of the petition is taken by several participants as license to be thermonuclear assholes to anyone failing to show similar enthusiasm for the idea. Hell, they're even tearing strips off fellow signatories for not supporting it with the right mindset. It's a sight that's equal parts hilarious and contemptible, and doubtless responsible for the thunderous support the petitioner's goal has received.
Yeah, that's a pretty accurate description of the social dynamic in those discussions. "Equal parts hilarious and contemptible" is almost exactly how I described it to a friend who used to be a contributing member but doesn't post anymore because the site has gone bonkers.
WotC knows what demographic they want to pursue and should create artwork that draws those demographics.
But looking at the 4e cover, I don't know what they achieved. Power female, clearly non-white, but a hottie with a dragon man companion with a mega-sword. Did we get more females in the hobby? Did we get more non-white players? Did the "more inclusive art" from WotC or Paizo do anything for anyone?
Quote from: SineNomine;579728Medieval Africa has were-leopard cults, actual amazon warriors that don't require ahistorical padding to justify, sorcerer-kings, fabulous golden treasures, libraries crammed with books of ancient lore, turbaned chain-armored cavalry lancers, gigantic thatch-roofed palaces, gigantic stone palaces, ruthless intrigue in those palaces, complex theological structures and the most elegant-looking swords (http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=62) in the world. If you can't make compelling gaming content out of that it better be because you're in a coma.
I want to play this!!!
Quote from: TristramEvans;579860When a character's butthurt reaches 100 points, they explode in flames and self-pity.
I would play a fun card game poking at forum behavior.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;580020My theory is that the main demographic of gamers (30s and 40s American white males) are a quivering blubbery mass of low testosterone pussies, particularly as they reach middle age, and sink back into a morass of domination by their boss at work and their harridan, bovine wives at home.
I'm good with this theory.
I have seen plenty of sad sack evidence that backs it up and I am shocked by the "wife = mother" mentality of far too many 30/40 somethings. It's incomprehensible compared to my father's generation who told their wives they were off to poker night, not begging for permission to escape the "honey do" list for a few hours.
Quote from: Spinachcat;580296WotC knows what demographic they want to pursue and should create artwork that draws those demographics.
But looking at the 4e cover, I don't know what they achieved. Power female, clearly non-white, but a hottie with a dragon man companion with a mega-sword. Did we get more females in the hobby? Did we get more non-white players? Did the "more inclusive art" from WotC or Paizo do anything for anyone?
I haven't seen a single dragon person at a game table, either. Clearly D&D failed.
I'd actually rather see a varied variety of people in my game books. Doesn't mean I want a strict quota, although if that's all handled at the production stage and I don't notice, I won't really care.
QuoteI want to play this!!!
Well, you know what to do. Some people are able to contribute to the hobby by creating - SineNomine, for example. And that's great.
But not everybody has the time or talent to do that. So some of us have to contribute with our wallets.
I've been kinda interested in an African-based fantasy game for a while now, but not had the time to dig into it. Now somebody is, and in return for doing that work, I'm going to reward them. With money. If non-traditional fantasy settings make a lot of money, eventually someone will notice... as Kevin has said elsewhere, he's done pretty well so far for an indie RPG publisher.
QuoteI have seen plenty of sad sack evidence that backs it up and I am shocked by the "wife = mother" mentality of far too many 30/40 somethings. It's incomprehensible compared to my father's generation who told their wives they were off to poker night, not begging for permission to escape the "honey do" list for a few hours.
Eh. I'll clear stuff with adorable girlfriend, because it's not fair on her to just go away with no warning, especially with a child to consider. And she'll do the same thing; but it's for organisation rather than permission. I mean, if your example, what if the mother wanted to go out that evening as well, and nobody was left to look after the kids? Someone would have to stay.
It's basic respect for other people, really. Wife = partner.
Quote from: Ladybird;579952Like Troll : The Provoking (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue9/troll1.html)?
Fuck it, I'd do it as a 3:16 hack if I wanted it on the tabletop. Sites, posters, arguments, likes... yeah, it translates well enough.
Um...I was just making a joke, actually. I don't think what I wrote is actually playable in any sane sense.
Quote from: TristramEvans;580409Um...I was just making a joke, actually. I don't think what I wrote is actually playable in any sane sense.
Do you think T:tP is? :)
Quote from: Ladybird;580413Do you think T:tP is? :)
I'm not familiar with it.