Here it is (http://www.petitiononline.com/obsrates/petition.html).
RPGPundit
It seems to me that the best protest is to simply not buy their .PDFs. Of course, this ends up hurting publishers who depend upon this channel for distribution, but if it's a channel that lends itself to monopolisation like this, fuck it. If the demand for .PDFs survives the test, some plucky entrepreneur will come along to steal some of the market share at a cut rate.
!i!
I "signed" it.
I just think the small publishers are going to get the short end of this deal. I would hate to see guys like Flying Mice, PIG, Hinterwelt, and others take a hit in profits and not have any better service provided to them. Not to mention the customer.
I make a point to buy my PDFs directly from the publisher. Often times, I'll search using RPGNow or DTRPG and then locate the publisher's home site and buy directly (if they have that option).
The idea of an online middleman is even more ridiculous than the three-tiered model that GAMA purports to support.
I signed the durn thing too. But honestly I don't plan on supporting the new site no matter what pricing policy the adopt. I just don't want anything to do with those guys from DriveThru.
Quote from: VellorianThe idea of an online middleman is even more ridiculous than the three-tiered model that GAMA purports to support.
I enjoyed the virtual window shopping aspect.
I'm curious, what you would you say are the number of publishers don't have an alternative PDF purchase venue. If only directly through their own sites?
Because I've gone out of my way to NOT purchase at DriveThru. Even with the rare case of windowing shop and finding something that interests me I'll still try to find it somewhere else, minimum of checking with the actual owner/producer. If it is somewhere else, especially if it is the owner and/or not a locked PDF, I'm very likely to spend my cash somewhere else.
Ok... Im going to say this again.
I've been saying it everywhere and EVERYONE seems to just want to roll with their knee-jerk "EWWWWW merger monopoly bad phtaghan!!!!!!"
Working full time at a PDF publisher is my full time job. I am not a disinterested observer in this.
First, there is no monopoly on PDF distribution.
When I started in this industry, 5 years ago, RPGNow was the only website selling PDFs. They controlled 100% of the market. That was a monopoly.
In the five years since we went from that one site, to 5 sites (RPGNow, DTRPG, e23, Paizo and ENGS) back down to 3 (RPGNow/DTRPG, e23 and Paizo).
Would someone please explain to me how this is a monopoly?
For extra credit:
DTRPG got going and moved to significant market share at a time when one site was TOTALLY dominant (RPGNow).
What institutionally has changed to stop a new site from moving up today in significant market share?
Please answer the extra credit question only with specific examples involving RPGs. If you talk about Microsoft, you might as well be comparine satellite dishes to oranges. We're talking about an industry (PDFs) that controls a 11% margin of the RPG market share for crying out loud.
Chuck
Quote from: blakkieI'm curious, what you would you say are the number of publishers don't have an alternative PDF purchase venue. If only directly through their own sites?
Because I've gone out of my way to NOT purchase at DriveThru. Even with the rare case of windowing shop and finding something that interests me I'll still try to find it somewhere else, minimum of checking with the actual owner/producer. If it is somewhere else, especially if it is the owner and/or not a locked PDF, I'm very likely to spend my cash somewhere else.
PDFs at the new RPGNow/DTRPG site will not be locked unless the publisher wants them to be.
Our options are: DRM (I know WOTC still uses DRM, not sure who else), Watermarking, or nothing.
Chuck
Quote from: McrowI "signed" it.
I just think the small publishers are going to get the short end of this deal. I would hate to see guys like Flying Mice, PIG, Hinterwelt, and others take a hit in profits and not have any better service provided to them. Not to mention the customer.
The smaller the publisher, the more they are likely to be helped by this.
Larger publishers typically are able to negotiate better rates for themselves.
For many smaller publishers, the % taken by the new RPGNow/DTRPG site is LESS than it was under RPGNow.
Chuck
I'm still debating whether or not I'm going to buy from OBS. Since most of my games I buy are print anyway, I'm sure how much I'd be missing.
Lucky for me PIG sells their own PDFs. Another company that I know has that ability is Evil Hat. Forge has the indie bookshelf thing and I belive key 20 and indie press have pdf sales as well.
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckPDFs at the new RPGNow/DTRPG site will not be locked unless the publisher wants them to be.
Our options are: DRM (I know WOTC still uses DRM, not sure who else), Watermarking, or nothing.
When did this change? As of the merger?
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIt seems to me that the best protest is to simply not buy their .PDFs. Of course, this ends up hurting publishers who depend upon this channel for distribution, but if it's a channel that lends itself to monopolisation like this, fuck it. If the demand for .PDFs survives the test, some plucky entrepreneur will come along to steal some of the market share at a cut rate.
!i!
If a "plucky entrpeneur" can come along and steal market share, how is that a monopoly?
A monopoly is a situation where the monopoly can leverage their market share to make it institutionally impossible (or very very difficult) for competition to spring up.
Chuck
Quote from: blakkieWhen did this change? With the merger?
DTRPG dropped the DRM requirement long ago and gave their publishers the option of DRM or watermarked PDFs.
I believe the option for NO security is new to the merged site but Im not 100% sure.
I know we began selling at DTRPG when the option for watermarked PDFs was introduced.
Chuck
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckThe smaller the publisher, the more they are likely to be helped by this.
Larger publishers typically are able to negotiate better rates for themselves.
For many smaller publishers, the % taken by the new RPGNow/DTRPG site is LESS than it was under RPGNow.
Chuck
I'm not so hung up on the %, though it will be pretty shitty if they pay the extra and get no benifit from it. My main concern is that the little guys will driven so far back and under the rocks that they will sell less and get less traffic. I don't know that anyone would argue that the big publishers get a lot more space on the front page as things stand now.
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckDTRPG dropped the DRM requirement long ago and gave their publishers the option of DRM or watermarked PDFs.
Ya, at least they did that. Still sucks monkeyballs to have the PDF locked up though, and given that a $25 piece of commercial software can strip the Owner password it isn't really much of a protection against largescale pirating.
QuoteI believe the option for NO security is new to the merged site but Im not 100% sure.
That's the one that is new to me. I'm glad too see it. Perhaps they will get some of my business. But the bumping of the take for an artifical "increase" in traffic still really rubs me the wrong way because eventually that comes out of my pocket.
EDIT: Although I'll take your word for it on the actual lowering from some past RPGNow rates. That's an interesting aspect I'd like to hear about. So in the past how much swing were the bigger players able to pull off?
man, those petition sites are the fruitiest thing ever. usually by #150-200 or so you get the trolls, and by #300 or so it's a virtual tag-board.
i could be completely wrong though: has one of these online petitions ever had any sort of documented direct results that anyone knows of?
also, this whole merger thing just firmly cements my love of print...a real honest to goodness 'book', instead of this ones and zeros crap i can't read on the shitter.
-k
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckIf a "plucky entrpeneur" can come along and steal market share, how is that a monopoly?
A monopoly is a situation where the monopoly can leverage their market share to make it institutionally impossible (or very very difficult) for competition to spring up.
Thank you for explaining what would make a plucky entrepreneur, operating at a cut rate, "plucky". Oh, and don't be such a tool. Nit-picking definitions is an irritating habit.
!i!
Quote from: McrowI'm not so hung up on the %, though it will be pretty shitty if they pay the extra and get no benifit from it. My main concern is that the little guys will driven so far back and under the rocks that they will sell less and get less traffic. I don't know that anyone would argue that the big publishers get a lot more space on the front page as things stand now.
If the site were run like a traditional retail store (or say Amazon) those small publishers would get far less front page exposure than they do.
The idea that RPGNow is not friendly to small publishers is just silly. The site created this industry and then it created the remix.
James knows that small publishers have the opportunity to grow into big sellers.
Phil Reed was a latecomer to the party and now he's a veritable 800 lb. gorilla.
Small publishers will always have the chance to succeed.
This merger makes that MORE likely.
When the smaller publishers were moved off the main RPGNow site, everyone screamed how they were being disadvantaged.
Well now not only are they BACK on the big stage, but that stage is even bigger.
And someone they are still getting disadvantaged?
Chuck
Talk about a poorly titled thread...
This petition isn't about the raise of PDF prices. It's about the raise in royalty rates experiences by some publishers on RPGNow (yes, that's right, some). Whether any prices raise or not is up to each individual publisher, not OBS. If you don't want prices to go up, petition whatever publisher raises their prices (or stop buying from them).
Also, try and remember that while some publishers have enjoyed the same royalty rates for a few years, the average cost of living has increased.
Quote from: blakkieEDIT: Although I'll take your word for it on the actual lowering from some past RPGNow rates. That's an interesting aspect I'd like to hear about. So in the past how much swing were the bigger players able to pull off?
I think it was like 5%. For a small publisher who had maybe a dozen products, that wasnt a big deal to them anyway.
To someone like RPGO, that has a hundred or so, 5% really adds up.
So it was really something only a big publisher (who is dealing in volume) would notice.
Chuck
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckThe smaller the publisher, the more they are likely to be helped by this.
Larger publishers typically are able to negotiate better rates for themselves.
For many smaller publishers, the % taken by the new RPGNow/DTRPG site is LESS than it was under RPGNow.
Chuck
Sorry, Chuck, I was with you until this. RPGNow had a 20-30% cut of revenues, and this is raised to 30%-35%. The old rates were, IIRC, 20% for grandfathered baseline service, 25% for grandfathered Gold service or new baseline service, and 30% for new Gold service. The new rates are 30% if you want to be locked into OBS, and 35% if you prefer not to be locked in. There is
no way you can make that paying less.
-clash
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThank you for explaining what would make a plucky entrepreneur, operating at a cut rate, "plucky". Oh, and don't be such a tool. Nit-picking definitions is an irritating habit.
!i!
No, tell me what makes it harder for competition to spring up NOW than it was when RPGNow controlled 100% of the market?
Please?
Id really like to know.
The new merged site controls less than 100% of the market.
One would think that would make competiton EASIER than it was in the past.
Chuck
Quote from: RoudiAlso, try and remember that while some publishers have enjoyed the same royalty rates for a few years, the average cost of living has increased.
That's why the royalties are expressed as a percentage. Are flatrate numbers the norm for establishing the prices for these contracts?
QuoteThis petition isn't about the raise of PDF prices. It's about the raise in royalty rates experiences by some publishers on RPGNow (yes, that's right, some). Whether any prices raise or not is up to each individual publisher, not OBS. If you don't want prices to go up, petition whatever publisher raises their prices (or stop buying from them).
:confused: Yes, game developers, feast upon your margins. Not food.
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckA monopoly is a situation where the monopoly can leverage their market share to make it institutionally impossible (or very very difficult) for competition to spring up.
Not according to my dictionary. Besides which, they can and do do exactly that by virtue of the prefered rates for people who are exclusive to the site. They're now THE dominant force in the market and exclusivity deals are designed to make it difficult for any new competitor to enter the market because now publishers will have to weigh the potential earnings from the new site against the higher rate they'd have to pay on OBS.
It's close to a monopoly, there was an attempt to establish a monopoly (by buying out e23) and there are policies in place disinsentivising any publisher from supporting a hypothetical new player, or even displaying their products on the smaller sites such as e23 and Paizo.
Quote from: flyingmiceSorry, Chuck, I was with you until this. RPGNow had a 20-30% cut of revenues, and this is raised to 30%-35%. The old rates were, IIRC, 20% for grandfathered baseline service, 25% for grandfathered Gold service or new baseline service, and 30% for new Gold service. The new rates are 30% if you want to be locked into OBS, and 35% if you prefer not to be locked in. There is no way you can make that paying less.
-clash
Well, I was mostly going by the number of publishers who I heard pipe up in the publishers' forum saying "this doesnt matter to me, my old rate was lower".
Since I dont pay attention to anyone's % but mine, I could be incorrect on that point.
I stand by the rest of my points.
This is not a monopoly.
The sky is not falling.
The new site will help the vast majority of publishers.
Chuck
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckWell, I was mostly going by the number of publishers who I heard pipe up in the publishers' forum saying "this doesnt matter to me, my old rate was lower".
Since I dont pay attention to anyone's % but mine, I could be incorrect on that point.
I stand by the rest of my points.
This is not a monopoly.
The sky is not falling.
The new site will help the vast majority of publishers.
Chuck
The new rate is the same as on DTRPG, but definitely higher than any published rates on RPGNow. If anyone was paying a *higher* rate on RPGnow, I have no idea why.
-clash
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalNot according to my dictionary. Besides which, they can and do do exactly that by virtue of the prefered rates for people who are exclusive to the site. They're now THE dominant force in the market and exclusivity deals are designed to make it difficult for any new competitor to enter the market because now publishers will have to weigh the potential earnings from the new site against the higher rate they'd have to pay on OBS.
It's close to a monopoly, there was an attempt to establish a monopoly (by buying out e23) and there are policies in place disinsentivising any publisher from supporting a hypothetical new player, or even displaying their products on the smaller sites such as e23 and Paizo.
Right.
And can your dictionary explain to me why a site was able to rise up and be serious competition at a time when one site controlled 100% of the market (RPGNow) but couldnt rise up now at a time when three sites control that same market?
No one ever answers that question.
Cause they cant.
When DTRPG was formed, RPGNow controlled 100% of the market.
And competition was possible.
Chuck
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckWell, I was mostly going by the number of publishers who I heard pipe up in the publishers' forum saying "this doesnt matter to me, my old rate was lower".
Since I dont pay attention to anyone's % but mine, I could be incorrect on that point.
I stand by the rest of my points.
This is not a monopoly.
The sky is not falling.
The new site will help the vast majority of publishers.
Chuck
we will see if you think the same 18 months from now.;)
Quote from: Mcrowwe will see if you think the same 18 months from now.;)
You act like I was driving in fucking gold plated cadillacs before this move and am not ALWAYS one quarter away from sending out resumes.
Please tell me how the next 18 months will be substantially different from the last 5 years.
When I joined RPGobjects, they had one product line with 6 products (Darwin's World) and I had written 3 books (Vigilance, Vigilance: Absolute POwer printed by MEG and Raw Recruits).
Now we're a top ten vendor.
Conditions have changed several times since then but we always manage to adapt and thrive.
Either we will continue to do that.
Or we wont.
Same as it ever was.
Chuck
The difference in rates won't make that much of a difference in pdf prices. Some publishers will absorb the rate hike, some will mirror it in their pricing - a 10% hike on a $5 item is just $0.50 - and some will mix these two. It will probably hit low-priced pdfs the hardest. There will be several strategies to deal with this, but none of them will magically hike the prices up very much at all. It matters more to the publishers than to the consumers, some of whom have been living on very thin margins, which I think is a stupid strategy, but that's just me. Don't everyone have a fit and panic.
-clash
Chuck, it's not a monopoly. It's an oligopoly. Happy?
Quote from: flyingmiceThe difference in rates won't make that much of a difference in pdf prices. Some publishers will absorb the rate hike, some will mirror it in their pricing - a 10% hike on a $5 item is just $0.50 - and some will mix these two. It will probably hit low-priced pdfs the hardest. There will be several strategies to deal with this, but none of them will magically hike the prices up very much at all. It matters more to the publishers than to the consumers, some of whom have been living on very thin margins, which I think is a stupid strategy, but that's just me. Don't everyone have a fit and panic.
-clash
Agreed.
I have no crystal ball, but Id bet PDF prices will go up cause they tend to go up ANYWAY.
People raise prices. That's life.
I doubt much of any upcoming price raise will be the result of this one action.
I mostly decided to jump in here because it really bugs me to see people throwing around scary words like "monopoly" because scary words are cool to use when it has absolutely no bearing on the current situation.
Chuck
Quote from: beejazzChuck, it's not a monopoly. It's an oligopoly. Happy?
Nope.
Explain to me why competition is harder now, with three companies controlling 100% of the market, than it was when 1 company controlled that same market share.
Chuck
I've no problems with Drivethru since they dropped the DRM and went to watermarks, but I really don't see this merger as a good thing.
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckYou act like I was driving in fucking gold plated cadillacs before this move and am not ALWAYS one quarter away from sending out resumes.
I don't recall saying anything or even suggesting that you made a lot of money writting RPGs. I know the RPG publishing market well enough to know that there are not a lot of people making a living doing RPGs and almost zero people getting rich.
QuotePlease tell me how the next 18 months will be substantially different from the last 5 years.
18 moths is about one full year after OBS goes live.
QuoteWhen I joined RPGobjects, they had one product line with 6 products (Darwin's World) and I had written 3 books (Vigilance, Vigilance: Absolute POwer printed by MEG and Raw Recruits).
Now we're a top ten vendor.
Conditions have changed several times since then but we always manage to adapt and thrive.
Either we will continue to do that.
Or we wont.
Same as it ever was.
Chuck
I don't know what you are getting all huffy about, i just simly disagree about this being a good thing for small publishers.
Ok, one question. Do you really think that the small publishers will see as much traffic on OBS as they do now? I doubt it. Why? Because its all about money (not that I think OBS is wrong for wanting to make money), and the big guys make up about 80% of the sales. Somewhere down the line thats going to force OBS to give the better add spots and front pages space to the stuff that makes money. It happens a little now, more @ drivethru though, but I think it will only get worse when OBS goes into full swing. So basically some people are paying a higher rate and not likely to get anything in return.
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckAnd can your dictionary explain to me why a site was able to rise up and be serious competition at a time when one site controlled 100% of the market (RPGNow) but couldnt rise up now at a time when three sites control that same market?
Absolutely.
Firstly, because RPGNow didn't have anti-competitive pricing policies which actually slanted the market in their favour and made sure that publishers thought long and hard about dual listing.
Secondly, DriveThru brought the major RPG publishers to the PDF table. In fact, if they hadn't had them, its unlikely DriveThru would have existed at all.
Thirdly, when DriveThru emerged, the market for PDFs was smaller than it is now. It's easier to introduce yourself into a young market than it is to introduce yourself in a mature market, especially when none of the opposition spend any money on advertising and you spend loads.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalAbsolutely.
Firstly, because RPGNow didn't have anti-competitive pricing policies which actually slanted the market in their favour and made sure that publishers thought long and hard about dual listing.
Secondly, DriveThru brought the major RPG publishers to the PDF table. In fact, if they hadn't had them, its unlikely DriveThru would have existed at all.
Thirdly, when DriveThru emerged, the market for PDFs was smaller than it is now. It's easier to introduce yourself into a young market than it is to introduce yourself in a mature market, especially when none of the opposition spend any money on advertising and you spend loads.
Wow. Some dictionary. It gives business advice too.
1. There are no anti-competitive pricing policies. Prices have not changed yet. And even if prices rise by 10% how the heck is that "anti-competitive pricing". You get bonus points for exchanging one scarrrrry word (monopoly) for another that had more syllables though!
2. So DTRPG competed because they had exclusive publishers? So you mean if a company wanted to come in and compete NOW with a dominant company providing the same service they need to bring something to the table that their competitor doesnt offer?
What a shock.
Yes a company wanting to compete with the new merged site would likely need exclusive publishers, lower prices, better service or something new no one has ever thought of.
This is called business.
I couldnt open up a hamburger stand and compete with McDonald's either. What a shock.
3. So the market is larger and that makes it HARDER to split it more ways? Huh? If a smaller market could support two dominant sites, I think a larger market can too.
Chuck
Quote from: McrowOk, one question. Do you really think that the small publishers will see as much traffic on OBS as they do now? I doubt it. Why? Because its all about money (not that I think OBS is wrong for wanting to make money), and the big guys make up about 80% of the sales. Somewhere down the line thats going to force OBS to give the better add spots and front pages space to the stuff that makes money. It happens a little now, more @ drivethru though, but I think it will only get worse when OBS goes into full swing. So basically some people are paying a higher rate and not likely to get anything in return.
Well it was the little guy getting screwed when RPGNow gave them their own site.
And now its the little guy getting screwed when they're going to be on THE BIGGEST site.
Look, for ALL publishers, the majority of your sales in this business come from direct marketing.
A small publisher could start out and become a top 10 publisher in the past and he can now.
That's all anyone can ask for.
If you wonder how I know a small publisher can do that, I've seen it happen multiple times once RPGNow started to get big.
And Im not huffy at all, except at people treating this like it's some awful development.
I dont consider being listed at the #1 PDF sales site, along with mirrors at ENWorld and RPGnet to be a bad development, regardless of the size of my business.
Chuck
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckLook, for ALL publishers, the majority of your sales in this business come from direct marketing.
See, the publishers that I talk to say that a lot of their sales on RPGnow come from people browsing the site and buying on impulse. Maybe thats not true, but since the PDF market is made for the impulse buyer, I'm inclined to think that traffic on RPGnow drives a lot of sales for publishers.
people browse, see something they like and "click" buy it now.
Now if those same publishers become less visible and/or harder to find that is bound to cut into sales.
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck1. There are no anti-competitive pricing policies. Prices have not changed yet. And even if prices rise by 10% how the heck is that "anti-competitive pricing". You get bonus points for exchanging one scarrrrry word (monopoly) for another that had more syllables though!
At the moment you're being a condescending cunt. I suggest you stop.
It's anti-competitive pricing to give people a lower rate if they are exclusive to your site. Because that means that if they ever want to move to a competitor, they have to either accept the rate hike and hope for the best OR jump ship entirely to the other site and hope that their customers will follow. It's disinsentivising selling on multiple platforms and as a result is anti-competitive.
Quote2. So DTRPG competed because they had exclusive publishers? So you mean if a company wanted to come in and compete NOW with a dominant company providing the same service they need to bring something to the table that their competitor doesnt offer?
That's not what I said at all. You asked me to explain how DriveThru could enter the marketplace and how it would be tougher now to do the same thing. The answer is that DriveThru had a USP, namely the major RPG publishers. If they hadn't had those publishers they wouldn't have entered the market. No new startup can pull a similar stunt that would not only allow him to compete with other sites but reach out to a whole new market at the same time. The market has now matured and moved on... the conditions allowing something like DriveThru to happen no longer hold.
QuoteThis is called business.
Absolutely. They did exactly what was right for them and they were rational to do so. However, OBS's interests are not the interests of the consumers, the small publishers OR the PDF market as a whole.
They weren't wrong to do what they did but they do stand to negatively impact the market by putting pressure on small publishers and generally slowing the pace of progress by eliminating competition.
Capitalism only works if there's competition.
Quote3. So the market is larger and that makes it HARDER to split it more ways? Huh? If a smaller market could support two dominant sites, I think a larger market can too.
If a market is more mature it makes it harder to make a dent in it. Compare launching an online bookshop now and compare it to launching it 5 years ago. The market's more mature, it can't be grown by reaching out to new customers (because there aren't as many as there once were) and shopping habits have become crystalised. Bigger market, but harder for a newcomer to enter.
In theory yes, but it's not a level playing field and with DriveThru leveraging it's market position to make it harder for people to try out the competition, it's unlikely that a second competitive site will emerge.
Quote from: McrowSee, the publishers that I talk to say that a lot of their sales on RPGnow come from people browsing the site and buying on impulse. Maybe thats not true, but since the PDF market is made for the impulse buyer, I'm inclined to think that traffic on RPGnow drives a lot of sales for publishers.
people browse, see something they like and "click" buy it now.
Now if those same publishers become less visible and/or harder to find that is bound to cut into sales.
Yes, about 50% of sales come from site traffic.
And 50% of sales come from direct marketing.
On the front page right now, I see Hinterwelt Publishing, Legion Publishing, Steam Power Publishing, Hart-Felt Productions, Mob United Media, Sane Studios...
Yeah, no small vendors at all.
Sigh.
It gives more exposure to small vendors than Amazon. Or any other retail store for that matter.
And again, when small publishers were GIVEN THEIR OWN SITE that was bad for them too, so we were told.
Even though that gave them MAXIMUM visibility.
What is the site supposed to do that it's not doing?
Chuck
Quote from: blakkieThat's why the royalties are expressed as a percentage.
That's all well and good for individual publishers. But what about James and the others employed by RPGNow? They've been collecting the same margins from many publishers for years now. And yet, their cost of living has steadily increased, just like everyone else's.
Quote from: blakkie:confused: Yes, game developers, feast upon your margins. Not food.
You lost me there.
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckYes, about 50% of sales come from site traffic.
And 50% of sales come from direct marketing.
On the front page right now, I see Hinterwelt Publishing, Legion Publishing, Steam Power Publishing, Hart-Felt Productions, Mob United Media, Sane Studios...
Yeah, no small vendors at all.
Like I said, it is less of a problem currently on RPGnow. Drivethru OTOH has definitely leans toward larger publishers.
QuoteIt gives more exposure to small vendors than Amazon. Or any other retail store for that matter.
who here is arguing that besides you?
QuoteAnd again, when small publishers were GIVEN THEIR OWN SITE that was bad for them too, so we were told.
see above
QuoteEven though that gave them MAXIMUM visibility.
if you are refering to the edge here, I think you last your damn mind. :D
I'm sure you know that traffic is MUCH less on the edge site.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's anti-competitive pricing to give people a lower rate if they are exclusive to your site.
YEah, because a 5% royalty rate increase for being non-exclusive would really break a company's back.
QuoteBecause that means that if they ever want to move to a competitor, they have to either accept the rate hike and hope for the best OR jump ship entirely to the other site and hope that their customers will follow. It's disinsentivising selling on multiple platforms and as a result is anti-competitive.
No, because everyone is also going to be selling on their own sites now (or at least many more will).
I predict there will be more than three RPG sites 5 years from now. Again, the market has gone from 1 site, to 5 and back to 3 in 5 years.
I dont see anything happening but business.
QuoteThat's not what I said at all. You asked me to explain how DriveThru could enter the marketplace and how it would be tougher now to do the same thing. The answer is that DriveThru had a USP, namely the major RPG publishers. If they hadn't had those publishers they wouldn't have entered the market. No new startup can pull a similar stunt that would not only allow him to compete with other sites but reach out to a whole new market at the same time. The market has now matured and moved on... the conditions allowing something like DriveThru to happen no longer hold.
And you didnt.
It was VERY TOUGH for DTRPG to do what they did. It took a lot of planning, a lot of capital outlay and a lot of skill.
It would be just as tough now.
But it wouldnt be more tough.
QuoteAbsolutely. They did exactly what was right for them and they were rational to do so. However, OBS's interests are not the interests of the consumers, the small publishers OR the PDF market as a whole.
So James, the guy who founded RPGNow and basically created the PDF equivalent of Amazon, doesnt have the health of the PDF market in mind? Are you mental?
QuoteThey weren't wrong to do what they did but they do stand to negatively impact the market by putting pressure on small publishers and generally slowing the pace of progress by eliminating competition.
Small publishers will be helped by this move imo.
QuoteCapitalism only works if there's competition.
It seemed to work fine when RPGNow was the only site in town. And it seems it will work fine now with three sites.
Chuck
Quote from: Mcrowif you are refering to the edge here, I think you last your damn mind. :D
I'm sure you know that traffic is MUCH less on the edge site.
Right.
So if they're on the site with a lot of traffic they arent visible enough, and if they have their own site, that's no good either.
I guess all the platinum vendors should fall on their sword to help out the little guy.
Seriously, what could the site do that it doesnt do?
Chuck
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckI predict there will be more than three RPG sites 5 years from now. Again, the market has gone from 1 site, to 5 and back to 3 in 5 years.
Isn't this fundamentally what I suggested in Post #2 in this thread? Oh, that's right, but you had to quibble over semantics and duelling dictionaries. Go you.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIsn't this fundamentally what I suggested in Post #2 in this thread? Oh, that's right, but you had to quibble over semantics and duelling dictionaries. Go you.
!i!
What I disagreed with was you saying this was one company forming a monopoly.
If you weren't saying that, I misunderstood you.
If you were, I disagree.
Chuck
Considering all the great successes that Internet Petitions have had throughout the ages, I imagine that we're just weeks, if not days, away from a major upheaval in the PDF industry.
Just like every other Online Petition that I've ever seen, their targets often take them very seriously.
-Andy
Quote from: Andy KJust like every other Online Petition that I've ever seen, their targets often take them very seriously.
-Andy
No shit. Can I create an online petition to ban online petitions?
Seems to me, people can put their money where their petitions are....If you are bothered by the price increase, don't buy them. Wouldn't this put more pressure on the "industry/seller/whatever" than an online petition?
I think it might be worthwhile.
Quote from: MarkI think it might be worthwhile.
Can't see it being any worse that tossing another post into this thread.
DOH! :combust:
P.S. Welcome Mark. :D