To steer the thread back, a pet peeve I have is that we get entire races sorted into alignments all neatly. We have good and evil counterparts.

For example: humans and demihumans are (generally) good while humanoids or subhumans (?) are always evil; elves are good and drow are evil elves; orcs are evil and leonorks (from a third party product) are good orcs.

It gets pretty silly after a while.

What I meant with my 'Magic' was how most settings don't take it, especially the way it's done in D&D, into how it would change the entire world.

Quote from: Chris24601;1035754The facts of the matter are that the people in the Medieval period were not at all the dung-covered superstitious illiterates that many moderns try to paint them as to pretend that mankind has made any progress at all beyond the technological.

That's not what I'm arguing. I'm practically arguing the contrary.

QuoteOnly in a world where magic is little more than Catholic ritual and the study of early science could the armored and mounted warrior maintained their dominance of society. The mere existence of someone who could look like any other commoner, but who could armor themselves with magical force as strong as steel, pass by any guard invisibly and immolate a cavalry charge or the courtyard of a castle with a single spell is going to so radically tilt the balance of power in a civilization that it could not resemble anything like the medieval period... and that's before you throw in warriors riding griffins and wyverns into battle, hordes of goblins, orcs, ogres, giants, legions of the undead raised up by powerful necromancers and actual freaking dragons living out in the wilds.

All that you're saying is "standard D&D magic wouldn't work in a Medieval-Authentic setting". Yes. That's one reason why I wrote Lion & Dragon.

QuoteI stand by my statement; any magic that isn't exceedingly rare (like one-in-millions rare; akin to the Saints who performed miracles during their lifetimes... who popped up at best once a generation or so and usually well away from civilizations) or incredibly subtle (either hidden by secret societies using MIB-style memory wipes or which operates more in line with coincidence or applied botany, chemistry or physics) is going to warp a civilization to the point it cannot be credibly called "authentically medieval."

And yet Lion & Dragon proves you wrong.

Again, a world where there's no magic is not an authentically medieval world.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037236And yet Lion & Dragon proves you wrong.

Again, a world where there's no magic is not an authentically medieval world.

If you think your RPG is actually authentically medieval despite having magic that actually works and folklore monsters that are real I don't think there's anything productive in continuing this discussion.

Belief in magical phenomena is one thing. Saying those beliefs had any weight beyond superstition, propaganda and teaching cultural values to the next generation is NOT authentically medieval because, and I don't know if this is news to you or not, magic and monsters aren't real. Including those elements as real automatically makes it fantasy and not authentic.

Quote from: Chris24601;1037270If you think your RPG is actually authentically medieval despite having magic that actually works and folklore monsters that are real I don't think there's anything productive in continuing this discussion.

Belief in magical phenomena is one thing. Saying those beliefs had any weight beyond superstition, propaganda and teaching cultural values to the next generation is NOT authentically medieval because, and I don't know if this is news to you or not, magic and monsters aren't real. Including those elements as real automatically makes it fantasy and not authentic.

Maybe it is authentic by the standards of what medieval people believed was true? Vaguely?

I am currently reading through Lion & Dragon and it seems clear to me that the milieu is similar to that of Ars Magica's Mythic Europe.

http://www.redcap.org/page/Mythic_Europe

Unlike Ars Magica, however, the magic is based on how people of that period supposed magic was conducted. Atlas Games attempted something similar with the addition of Hedge Magic, but the very existence of Hermetic Mages sidelined these more "historically based" practitioners.

Moreover, the focus in L&D is on playing within a medieval society rather than existing on the fringes, as it is in Ars Magica.

Runequest/Mythras also has a Mythic Britain setting which comes after a long line of historical-mythical settings like Vikings and Land of the Ninja.

Cubilcle 7 have Yggdrasil and Keltia based in Mythic Scandanavia: from their website

QuoteJust as Keltia is set in a mythic version of British history, where Arthurian legend and Celtic myth are real, so too is Yggdrasill set in a mythic version of Scandia, where Norse mythology is real.

Finally, regarding the tone of Lion and Dragon, I was reminded strongly of the wonderful setting for Dragon Warriors (i.e.Legend). Oddly, their magic using character classes are not really appropriate for the setting so I would definitely be tempted to use L&D if I ran a game in that setting again.

Quote from: Chris24601;1037270If you think your RPG is actually authentically medieval despite having magic that actually works and folklore monsters that are real I don't think there's anything productive in continuing this discussion.

A world that didn't have magic or monsters would not be authentically Medieval, because the culture wouldn't work.

QuoteBelief in magical phenomena is one thing. Saying those beliefs had any weight beyond superstition, propaganda and teaching cultural values to the next generation is NOT authentically medieval because, and I don't know if this is news to you or not, magic and monsters aren't real. Including those elements as real automatically makes it fantasy and not authentic.

That's a totally modernist conceit. Medieval people lived in a demon-haunted world.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1037277Finally, regarding the tone of Lion and Dragon, I was reminded strongly of the wonderful setting for Dragon Warriors (i.e.Legend). Oddly, their magic using character classes are not really appropriate for the setting so I would definitely be tempted to use L&D if I ran a game in that setting again.

Very glad to hear it!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037626Medieval people lived in a demon-haunted world.

So did Roman Catholics in small town northern Wisconsin in the 1950s.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1031569Name something that's very common to find in a D&D setting that you really don't care for. And, if explanation is needed, why.

Geography.

Quote from: vgunn;1037650Geography.

Explanation is needed.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1037277Runequest/Mythras also has a Mythic Britain setting which comes after a long line of historical-mythical settings like Vikings and Land of the Ninja.

Cubilcle 7 have Yggdrasil and Keltia based in Mythic Scandanavia: from their website.

I have to say I really have always liked Avalon Hill's Runequest Europe 3e as a campaign setting, RuneQuest Viking as well. Mongoose republished both of those I beleieve...

Quote from: RPGPundit;1037866Explanation is needed.

I like my geography at least somewhat plausible. That doesn't mean it has to be normal and not every geographic element has to line up with the real world, but when it doesn't there needs to be some explanation of why. Rivers that flow uphill or start in the middle of plains, oddly placed deserts which are next to vast jungles. Lost cities within a few days travel of civilization, towns with no reason to be where they are, swamps without a water source. Huge forests on the rain-shadow side of mountains.

Mystara is probably the worst offender. Now, that doesn't stop me from playing--it just bothers me. I love fantastical geography--walls of fire reaching to heaven and things like that--but let me know the how/why it occurred.

Quote from: vgunn;1037933Mystara is probably the worst offender.

FWIW, Mystara is so notable an offender that it gets grief for it, so it is an outlier. All of the D&D geographies are somewhat off and weird, although I look at things like the 60-degree river turns as 'unfortunate shorthands of the medium, don't overthink it.'

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1037936FWIW, Mystara is so notable an offender that it gets grief for it, so it is an outlier. All of the D&D geographies are somewhat off and weird, although I look at things like the 60-degree river turns as 'unfortunate shorthands of the medium, don't overthink it.'

Agreed. I still love to play in some these settings and have no problem glossing over the issues.