Quote from: Chris24601;1034405Oh, I know... the Known World of Basic D&D was practically "Thundarr the Barbarian" level zany (that's a compliment by the way)...

Why wouldn't that be a compliment?

Quote from: Chris24601;1034405...and it didn't have the slightest pretense that it occurred in an authentically medieval setting. Hell, the solo adventure introduction in the Mentzer Red Book had you going to the local armorsmith in your town and buying a suit of plate armor off the rack like you were shopping for a new suit.



I have no problems with settings like that. They aren't pretending that magic and monsters and adventurers don't make the world radically different from what we'd think of as a historical setting (it acquires especially dark humor if you presume that most of those damaged suits of armor he has probably came from other adventurers who had the same ideas you have of striking it rich by raiding the local dungeon for lost treasures and he's just re-selling the stuff to the next round of hapless adventurers).

I do have problems with settings that drop real magic, monsters and adventurers into Medieval England but say that doesn't have any effect on the world at all. That's just lazy.

Yep.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1034293There wasn't in the middle ages.

Actually, there was trade in relics with supposed abilities to heal and protect, and witches were offering for sale items with less beneficial properties;). Whether the items would have miraculous properties is another matter.

I still don't like magic items shops, though:D!

Quote from: Chris24601;1034405Not really. I just like logically coherent worlds.

I guess for me, D&D isn't logically coherent and really can't be, so one of the most annoying things any setting can do is take itself too seriously. We're talking about a game that originates in a castle whose basement contained a gigantic bowling alley and a portal to King Kong World, not a carefully crafted simulation. When I ran Against the Cult of the Reptile God in 5e, Ramne regularly grumbled that in his day, wizards could only cast one spell at first level, were grateful to the gods if they started with more than 2 hp, etc.

So yes, there are kings and nobles, and a suit of plate mail is hard to come by, you can't buy a Ring of Protection at Walmart, your average peasant doesn't have a +1 Magic Plow, and no, your wizard can't craft magic items. The reason for all of this is "because." I wouldn't call it "authentically" medieval, as the Greyhawk setting's populations are far too scattered (they recently came across a small village of shepherds that is way too far away from a major population center to make sense) and, as many people have pointed out, the weapons are drawn across far too many time periods, but I reserve the right to say "because" for any logical inconsistency in my world-building that players point out, and think all D&D DMs should do the same.

Trying to work out all the socio-economic implications of +1 magic swords and potions of heroism lying in underground lairs is a fool's errand. People have fun playing "Eight Centuries of Medieval England Mashed Together And Also There Are Fireballs." So I've got no problem giving it to them. I like the term "Hollywood pseudomedievalish" and don't pretend I'm accurately simulating a world with a d20 physics engine and a coherent, dungeon-based, international economy.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1034496I guess for me, D&D isn't logically coherent and really can't be, so one of the most annoying things any setting can do is take itself too seriously.

And among the fastest ways to lose me is an internally incoherent setting. So this part of your post expresses my pet peeve about D&D settings in a nice nutshell.

Quote from: AsenRG;1034511And among the fastest ways to lose me is an internally incoherent setting. So this part of your post expresses my pet peeve about D&D settings in a nice nutshell.

My point is that none of them are, not even Eberron. Although at least Eberron tries.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1034526My point is that none of them are, not even Eberron. Although at least Eberron tries.

Oddly, the most gonzo setting out there, Tekumel, has the most consistent and coherent explanations for the existence of all the whacky stuff like huge dungeons and scattered magic items.

Quote from: Rod's Duo Narcotics;1034527Oddly, the most gonzo setting out there, Tekumel, has the most consistent and coherent explanations for the existence of all the whacky stuff like huge dungeons and scattered magic items.

Yes, but Tekumel is just a setting. It's not a D&D setting, it just can be played with a D&D-like system (namely, EPT).
The setting wasn't made for the system, it was the other way around.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1034496Trying to work out all the socio-economic implications of +1 magic swords and potions of heroism lying in underground lairs is a fool's errand. People have fun playing "Eight Centuries of Medieval England Mashed Together And Also There Are Fireballs." So I've got no problem giving it to them. I like the term "Hollywood pseudomedievalish" and don't pretend I'm accurately simulating a world with a d20 physics engine and a coherent, dungeon-based, international economy.

Yet I can lay out a coherent framework for it in three sentences.

"A globe-spanning magitech utopia was destroyed in a cataclysm that wiped out 99.9% of the population, mutated many of the survivors into monsters and ripped open the barriers between worlds allowing all manner of alien horrors into the world. Two centuries later communities founded by survivors that have barely managed to hold onto iron age technology struggle to survive in a world transformed. Their best hope; brave heroes willing to risk the monster-haunted ruins beyond the safety of civilization's walls in order to recover the lost secrets and treasures of a bygone age; advantages that could mean the difference between civilization's survival and its extinction."

That was the starting premise for the setting of the game system I'm working on and while the actual development is now far more complex than what's written above (it now involves a series of successive grand empires and dark ages in its mythology; and just about anything from more than 200 years back is myth and legend; the recorded history referenced in the setting is all from after the cataclysm as is the count of years; BC (before cataclysm) and AC (after cataclysm). Population growth has been slow (about 1% per year) due to the depredations of monsters (which also keeps the population fairly urbanized... any community needs walls and guards if it has any hope of surviving for long). The biggest "kingdom" in the region started with about 3500 survivors (out of Pre-Cataclysm population of 3 million; they were some of the lucky ones) and has grown over the last 200 years into a population of about 25,000 people huddled along about 50 miles of especially fertile river coastline (a Mississippi, Amazon or Nile sized river). Five miles inland (less in some places, a bit more in others) the farmlands supporting the fortress city and towns that house what passes for civilization gives way to the overgrown ruins of the old Empire; often hidden by two centuries of vegetation except where all manner of monsters, brigands and barbarians have made the ruins their homes.

* * * *

Internally coherent settings aren't hard and they don't have to be all that complex; they just need to not pretend that the changes the fantasy elements make to the setting don't occur in a vacuum. Those settings that take even a little time time to account for these things are far less forgettable than "random hodge-podge of fantasy tropes #257."

Quote from: Chris24601;1034537Yet I can lay out a coherent framework for it in three sentences.

"A globe-spanning magitech utopia was destroyed in a cataclysm that wiped out 99.9% of the population, mutated many of the survivors into monsters and ripped open the barriers between worlds allowing all manner of alien horrors into the world. Two centuries later communities founded by survivors that have barely managed to hold onto iron age technology struggle to survive in a world transformed. Their best hope; brave heroes willing to risk the monster-haunted ruins beyond the safety of civilization's walls in order to recover the lost secrets and treasures of a bygone age; advantages that could mean the difference between civilization's survival and its extinction."

That was the starting premise for the setting of the game system I'm working on and while the actual development is now far more complex than what's written above (it now involves a series of successive grand empires and dark ages in its mythology; and just about anything from more than 200 years back is myth and legend; the recorded history referenced in the setting is all from after the cataclysm as is the count of years; BC (before cataclysm) and AC (after cataclysm). Population growth has been slow (about 1% per year) due to the depredations of monsters (which also keeps the population fairly urbanized... any community needs walls and guards if it has any hope of surviving for long). The biggest "kingdom" in the region started with about 3500 survivors (out of Pre-Cataclysm population of 3 million; they were some of the lucky ones) and has grown over the last 200 years into a population of about 25,000 people huddled along about 50 miles of especially fertile river coastline (a Mississippi, Amazon or Nile sized river). Five miles inland (less in some places, a bit more in others) the farmlands supporting the fortress city and towns that house what passes for civilization gives way to the overgrown ruins of the old Empire; often hidden by two centuries of vegetation except where all manner of monsters, brigands and barbarians have made the ruins their homes.

* * * *

Internally coherent settings aren't hard and they don't have to be all that complex; they just need to not pretend that the changes the fantasy elements make to the setting don't occur in a vacuum. Those settings that take even a little time time to account for these things are far less forgettable than "random hodge-podge of fantasy tropes #257."

And thus you reinvoke a long-standing observation about OD&D in particular - that it implies a post-apocalyptic, rather than "fantasy historical", setting. (Nicely done setting on your part, too.) The default D&D tropes just don't produce anything close to a "grafted on to history" setting.

Quote from: Chris24601;1034537Yet I can lay out a coherent framework for it in three sentences.

"A globe-spanning magitech utopia was destroyed in a cataclysm that wiped out 99.9% of the population, mutated many of the survivors into monsters and ripped open the barriers between worlds allowing all manner of alien horrors into the world. Two centuries later communities founded by survivors that have barely managed to hold onto iron age technology struggle to survive in a world transformed. Their best hope; brave heroes willing to risk the monster-haunted ruins beyond the safety of civilization's walls in order to recover the lost secrets and treasures of a bygone age; advantages that could mean the difference between civilization's survival and its extinction."

This wouldn't be coherent in D&D. You'd have to significantly change the rules...which is probably why you're doing this:

QuoteThat was the starting premise for the setting of the game system I'm working on

...rather than simply running your setting with one of the published D&D editions. Because if you've got even a couple miracle workers in town who can Cure Wounds and Cure Disease on birthing mothers and small children, population growth isn't going to be a problem. Neither is fielding a military force to eradicate monsters going to be tough if clearing out a kobold warren or two somehow makes you capable of fighting with the strength of three men.

D&D doesn't try to present an internally coherent universe. It was designed to play a game, and the original WoG, and later settings, were cobbled around it. Treat it as a physics/economics/social engine and try to derive what happens, and you get something insane. But not everybody wants to play in Crazygonuts Gonzo Land where nobody ever gets sick and you're not allowed to ever play N1 because it you can't rigorously adhere to world-building rules and arrive at a village with a 7th level wizard and a 5th level fighter that has developed a problem that a 1st-level party can solve.

People want to play D&D. So why shouldn't they?

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1034552This wouldn't be coherent in D&D. You'd have to significantly change the rules...which is probably why you're doing this: ...rather than simply running your setting with one of the published D&D editions. Because if you've got even a couple miracle workers in town who can Cure Wounds and Cure Disease on birthing mothers and small children, population growth isn't going to be a problem. Neither is fielding a military force to eradicate monsters going to be tough if clearing out a kobold warren or two somehow makes you capable of fighting with the strength of three men.

I'm designing a new system because I found a niche that isn't being well served that I think I can fill and I wanted to attach a setting to it and so I used the homebrew setting I came up with for a D&D campaign I ran as the start point.

There are plenty of spellcasters with cure affliction/wounds type magic... the low population growth is due to monster predation being more than kobolds (Hell, the kobolds are on civilization's side). 3+% Population Growth is great until you account for the hundreds of deaths to monsters averaged per year (normal years aren't that bad, but periodic massacres where whole towns of a 1000+ are being wiped off the map every half dozen or so years skews the average).

D&D makes a distinction between PC heroes and 0-level warriors (who don't improve with experience). The problems that need adventering heroes for aren't kobold bandits... its hyper-predators like ogre tribes, legions of the dead led by Death Knights, rampaging Chimeras and Hydras, Cambion Lords scheming to restore the glory days of the the mythical Demon Empire, etc.

0-level guards slaughtering a few goblins isn't gonna make them any better at surviving the type of threats adventurers undertake. People with what it takes to be a successful adventurer  are rare; elite special forces teams rare. The sum total of actual adventurers in that aforementioned kingdom is probably a dozen, including the rulers who are semi-retired adventurers themselves. The massacre at Ferrycross that left barely a dozen survivors out of a population of a thousand was just ten years ago. Stormhold (the former capitol of the region) was razed and sunk into sea due to a dark ritual just a half-dozen years before that. Civilization hangs by a thread and dark forces gather in the ruins seeking to snuff it out.

That's a setting designed to make the setting coherent with the rules. It's not hard and it helps more than it hurts (those who don't care if it's coherent won't care one way or the other while those who do appreciate it).

Crom's hairy nutsack.  Has ANYBODY read Dying Earth?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034807Crom's hairy nutsack.  Has ANYBODY read Dying Earth?

Who is still alive?  Good question.

Nope, I avoid most fantasy like the plague. I'd rather read historical fiction or straight history. I can stretch to some specific sub-genres of sci-fi.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034807Crom's hairy nutsack.  Has ANYBODY read Dying Earth?

At least 10 times, some of them before I played D&D.  So you aren't the only one.