Quote from: Zalman;1033838The thing about Occult shops -- particularly as a literary theme or trope -- is that the vast majority of the wares to be found there are nothing but worthless trinkets, with singular special and actually magical items showing up only rarely, and often not even recognized as such by the proprietor.

That would, at least, make more sense; if you had a culture sufficiently technologically/industrially and culturally advanced to have those kinds of shops at all.

But a far more likely model would be to have to hire a wizard to make a specific type of talisman or object for you. But these would be different than legendary/powerful magic which would be kept in families or institutions (ie. the church) for generation after generation and would be almost impossible to purchase.

The real issue is the necessity of Healing.  Especially the older editions.  If you can't get easy access to hit point recovery (no matter what you want to explain it as), the game can and will grind to a stop.  Ye Olde Occult Shoppe is the easiest way to keep that from happening, especially if your Cleric is out of of spells for the day.

Quote from: Zalman;1033838The thing about Occult shops -- particularly as a literary theme or trope -- is that the vast majority of the wares to be found there are nothing but worthless trinkets, with singular special and actually magical items showing up only rarely, and often not even recognized as such by the proprietor.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1034294That would, at least, make more sense; if you had a culture sufficiently technologically/industrially and culturally advanced to have those kinds of shops at all.

But a far more likely model would be to have to hire a wizard to make a specific type of talisman or object for you. But these would be different than legendary/powerful magic which would be kept in families or institutions (ie. the church) for generation after generation and would be almost impossible to purchase.

Here's the thing, though. The use of a "magic shop" is a time honored one in literature. For an excellent use of this trope, read Djinn, No Chaser by Harlan Ellison.

So if it is used in literature, then why can't the concept be used in a fantasy RPG? Is it appropriate for all interpretations of setting? No, but it is for some.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034301The real issue is the necessity of Healing.  Especially the older editions.  If you can't get easy access to hit point recovery (no matter what you want to explain it as), the game can and will grind to a stop.  Ye Olde Occult Shoppe is the easiest way to keep that from happening, especially if your Cleric is out of of spells for the day.

Alchemists, though, are well known in legend and literature, and it seems like they ALWAYS need money for their next Sure Fire Way to turn Lead into Gold.  So flogging healing potions (that work) would actually make sense.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034311Alchemists, though, are well known in legend and literature, and it seems like they ALWAYS need money for their next Sure Fire Way to turn Lead into Gold.  So flogging healing potions (that work) would actually make sense.

Never in all of my gaming years have I ever had or seen any other group do the whole 'Magi-Mart' thing.  So a lot of this is very much alien to me.  Well, OK, one of my friends likes to recant a tale from his old Palladium days in which a player of his would also make a character with a Magical Katana, so in a fit of Pique he asked the guy, "Where do you get those, 'Bullshit Bob's Bargain Basement of Magical Katanas'?"

But frankly, the 'Ye Olde Potion Shoppe' to help fund Magical research (whether it's new spells, old spells or other magical alchemistry) doesn't sound too egregious to me.  Wouldn't churches also do it?  Maintaining buildings isn't cheap.

I would have thought alchemists more likely to be hobbyist aristocrats, who make enough money from their estates not to have to worry about how to fund their researches, than some pauper with no other source of income. Or else someone with a wealthy patron who supports them, not dependent on shilling snake oil to wandering vagabonds.

Also worth pointing out about the presence of magic shops is that, unlike in the real world, magic is a demonstrably provable force in the world. Even if the number of people who can actually pull off a couple low level spells is just one in a few thousand, everyone's probably heard of there being an actual 'wizard, witch or warlock' or a 'miracle working holy man' within a day or two's travel of their home.

And these aren't myths... Sick people who go to the holy man come back hale and hearty and wealthy yeoman farmers who can pay the wizard's fee come back with plows that never break or need sharpening (+1 plow of sowing would be a rather prevalent magic item if enchanting items were real). Even if they can only cure a few people every day the holy man's residence will be swamped with sick people who traveled days or weeks for a shot at being healed and the wizard would be backlogged with requests for magical farming tools for the rest of his days (and can they really refuse the local lord when he demands the full use of their time?).

The real world had merchants selling 'relics' and other reputedly holy/magic items all along the pilgrimage routes. Imagine just 1% of those merchants' goods had real magical powers. That is absolutely going to warp the natural of the world and the presence of merchants who sells wares (potions and alchemical items mostly, but minor trinkets like the ever-burning torch are certainly possible too) produced by such wizards (probably with a guild to protect their interests) would almost certainly pop up. Magic in these settings isn't like ancient Greek steam engines; it produces obviously useful effects through its use.

And this doesn't even go into the fact that monsters are REAL in these worlds. Merchants claiming to sell powdered dragon teeth and hydra fangs (a renewable resource they assure you) are certainly going to exist. Some of it may even be real. Those things are probably going to be sold by the same merchants who have cornered the market on selling the potions and alchemical wares above.

All that's needed now is for one of these merchants to settle down and open an shop and you have a magic shop... because the real presence of magic supports there being one in the same way that a large harbor supports the presence of shipwrights and sail makers.

And that's with a 1:2000 or less ratio of spellcasters (so 1:4000 wizards and 1:4000 clerics) who might never go beyond 2nd level spells in their whole lives. D&D 3e suggests that Adepts able to work minor spells number about 1 in 200 persons (about the same as for nobles). So in that type of setting every village of 500 or more is probably going to have 2-3 adepts living in it working minor spells and if they make that their livelihood by brewing potions and casting spells for the locals in exchange for pay and they have a shop in town where you can come to buy their goods and services... guess what that's going to be called?

One of my biggest pet peeves of D&D settings is the way they include real and rather pervasive practical magic and actual monsters and yet expect the setting to run in anything resembling an 'authentic' medieval fashion. Its rather like if you added knowledge of how to build 1880's era steam engines to medieval Britain and expect it to run as if the presence of steam powered tractors and transportation didn't exist.

Quote from: Chris24601;1034326One of my biggest pet peeves of D&D settings is the way they include real and rather pervasive practical magic and actual monsters and yet expect the setting to run in anything resembling an 'authentic' medieval fashion. Its rather like if you added knowledge of how to build 1880's era steam engines to medieval Britain and expect it to run as if the presence of steam powered tractors and transportation didn't exist.

Seems like a lot of people are really annoyed that there are settings other than Eberron.

Quote from: Chris24601;1034326One of my biggest pet peeves of D&D settings is the way they include real and rather pervasive practical magic and actual monsters and yet expect the setting to run in anything resembling an 'authentic' medieval fashion. Its rather like if you added knowledge of how to build 1880's era steam engines to medieval Britain and expect it to run as if the presence of steam powered tractors and transportation didn't exist.

Default D&D is anything but 'authentic' medieval. The last part of the medieval era (late Hundred Years War through Thirty Years War) had the printing press, gunpowder, and working, regularly available firearms and cannon. The medieval era as a whole did not have Renaissance era rapiers, and the early medieval era did not have the ocean-going ships of the late medieval era. And no medieval city was anywhere near as cosmopolitan as your typical D&D "hub" city (Greyhawk, Waterdeep, and the like).

D&D is a genre all its own. If you want to be charitable and call it "medieval", it is "fantastic medievalist" akin to what you would see at the SCA or a Ren Faire (aka "SCA for normies"), only D&D also has magic, monsters, and demihumans.

Uh, the Thirty Years War isn't "medieval" by any definition of the word. None of the 17th century is.

Quote from: Kiero;1034333Uh, the Thirty Years War isn't "medieval" by any definition of the word. None of the 17th century is.

Fair point. The transition point between medieval and Renaissance varies depending on which historian you read. The Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, which ended the Thirty Years War, is often marked as the end of medieval feudalism and the birth of the modern nation-state.

The greater point remains - there was gunpowder during the period(s) from which D&D draws other available equipment, and the absence of gunpowder is a D&D trope. This is one of the ways in which default D&D is not 'authentic' medieval.

(I'll let Our Host promote his own historic-authentic products here.)

I call OD&D "Hollywood pseudomedievalish.". Which I'm okay with as long as we admit that's what it is.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034316Never in all of my gaming years have I ever had or seen any other group do the whole 'Magi-Mart' thing.  So a lot of this is very much alien to me.  Well, OK, one of my friends likes to recant a tale from his old Palladium days in which a player of his would also make a character with a Magical Katana, so in a fit of Pique he asked the guy, "Where do you get those, 'Bullshit Bob's Bargain Basement of Magical Katanas'?"

But frankly, the 'Ye Olde Potion Shoppe' to help fund Magical research (whether it's new spells, old spells or other magical alchemistry) doesn't sound too egregious to me.  Wouldn't churches also do it?  Maintaining buildings isn't cheap.

Good point about clerics!

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1034327Seems like a lot of people are really annoyed that there are settings other than Eberron.

Not really. I just like logically coherent worlds.

If you want authentic medieval then magic needs to either be so rare (one-in-a-million) and/or subtle (akin to Coincidental Magic in Mage the Ascension... was it really magic or was it just fortuitous circumstance) as to not disrupt the non-magical social order.

The problem is that D&D (sans 4E) makes it rather difficult to run non-magical settings because of how its healing rules are built around needing either magic or amounts of time that are more than most events PCs get involved in allows for. 4E's complete decoupling of hit points from meat (so it was almost entirely fatigue and morale... surges were more akin to longer lasting wounds/deep fatigue) allowed the warlord class to replace the cleric (sure it could have a better name, but the function behind it is absolutely sound) and inherent bonuses meant you didn't need magic items to make the math work made it the only version of D&D I've ever been able to pull off a "Robin Hood" or similar non-magic medieval setting in that didn't require kludges (often obvious ones) to work around the existing rules.*

But once magic is pervasive enough that there's at least one known wizard and/or holy man working provable miracles in every large town (or worse, one in every hamlet) trying to pretend that isn't going to warp the setting and just pretending the effect that would have on society doesn't exist by claiming the setting is "authentically medieval" is just lazy world-building.

*5e is second best at it since there are enough bard spells you could re-fluff as non-magical morale and inspiration-like effects so you can pretend they're not actually a spellcaster if they avoid the overt stuff. You could probably still use the cleric, paladin and ranger too if you selectively pruned their spell lists of overt effects (i.e. no calling down the fires of heaven, but bless, bane, aid, calm emotions would all work).

Quote from: RandyB;1034332Default D&D is anything but 'authentic' medieval. The last part of the medieval era (late Hundred Years War through Thirty Years War) had the printing press, gunpowder, and working, regularly available firearms and cannon. The medieval era as a whole did not have Renaissance era rapiers, and the early medieval era did not have the ocean-going ships of the late medieval era. And no medieval city was anywhere near as cosmopolitan as your typical D&D "hub" city (Greyhawk, Waterdeep, and the like).

Oh, I know... the Known World of Basic D&D was practically "Thundarr the Barbarian" level zany (that's a compliment by the way) and it didn't have the slightest pretense that it occurred in an authentically medieval setting. Hell, the solo adventure introduction in the Mentzer Red Book had you going to the local armorsmith in your town and buying a suit of plate armor off the rack like you were shopping for a new suit.

Quote from: D&D Basic Set Player's ManualYou spend a few days in town, letting your wounds heal. Since you found so much treasure on your first adventure, you go shopping for some better armor.
Armorer Baldwick knows you well. He's a jolly fellow, getting a bit gray. You remember snitching apples from the big tree in his yard when you were young and foolish.
"Well, well!" he booms, as you enter his shop. "How have YOU been these days? All grown up now, I see!"
You chat for a few minutes about your younger days, and then you ask if he has any armor that would fit you.
"Why, surely! Let me see, let me see . . ." He pushes his way through racks of armor of all kinds, as you follow closely behind. There are dozens of sets of armor, for people of all sizes, but most of them need repair.
"AHA!" he exclaims, pulling an armload of metal down. "Try this on!" The armor you are wearing is made of round chain links, all skillfully interwoven to form a covering for most of your body. But this armor is different. Large pieces of well-crafted metal are
fastened to chain mail and leather, fashioned into pieces that you could wear.
"Plate mail, of course; just finished it a week or two ago. Want to try it on? I think it'll fit."
You go to a back room and remove your chain mail, and try this heavier armor on for size. Sure enough, it fits, almost as if it were made just for you. The metal plates hang from leather straps and chain mail links, forming a tough protective suit. But it's very heavy, almost twice as heavy as your chain mail.
You come out to show him, and he walks around you, carrying a piece of charcoal and marking the armor here and there for some necessary adjustments.
"Looks good!" he exclaims. "Just a bit here, and a bit there . . . want to trade in that chain mail you had on? Looked to be in pretty good shape . . . ."
"Wait a minute!" you reply. "Don't you have anything lighter than this stuff? I'm not going to be able to carry as much treasure if I wear all this metal!"
"Ah, well!" he says, soothingly. "If you want better protection, you have to use this. Unless, of course, you can somehow find magical armor."
Plate mail will improve your Armor Class to AC 2, better than your current AC 4, so it would be nice to have.
"Well, how much?" you ask.
"Well . . . 75 gold pieces as is. Want to trade in that chain mail?" he repeats.
"Oh, I guess so," you reply. "How much?"
"For you, well . . . since you're trying to get started, and since I've known you so long . . . 50 gold pieces, with your trade-in."
You talk with him a bit more, using your Charisma, and bargain him down to a better price.
"Okay, OKAY!" he says finally. "Just 30 gold pieces with the trade-in, and you promise to come here first the next time you need better armor or more weapons. Agreed!" He stomps off, grumbling, then stops and turns. "You can pick it up Tuesday. Pay the clerk on your way out!"

I have no problems with settings like that. They aren't pretending that magic and monsters and adventurers don't make the world radically different from what we'd think of as a historical setting (it acquires especially dark humor if you presume that most of those damaged suits of armor he has probably came from other adventurers who had the same ideas you have of striking it rich by raiding the local dungeon for lost treasures and he's just re-selling the stuff to the next round of hapless adventurers).

I do have problems with settings that drop real magic, monsters and adventurers into Medieval England but say that doesn't have any effect on the world at all. That's just lazy.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034371I call OD&D "Hollywood pseudomedievalish.". Which I'm okay with as long as we admit that's what it is.

Good label. I'm with you. It is what it is, and we enjoy it as it is. If we want it different, its our table, anyway.