Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2023, 08:46:44 PM
Mechanically, even healing magic wouldn't make it easy to get working legs back.   Raise Dead doesn't seem to grow back legs.  Every description I can google says Raise Dead doesn't restore missing parts.  Restoration restores ability damage, but Lt Dan, you still got no legs.  Seems like what you need for that is Regeneration and that ain't cheap or readily available depending on setting.

Of course, fantasy artifice isn't always cheap or readily available depending on setting either and an adventurer waiting to find a high-ish level friendly spellcaster would really need something like a construct mount to spin around on and if you were going to make one of those, wouldn't something like BigDog not only be better for an adventurer, but also easier for a fantasy artificer to get their head around?

"Oh, hero!  You got your legs bitten off?  Well, if you really want to go back out there until you can get healed, I do have a contraption for it.  Not as good as a horse, maybe, but it can go in more tight spots and won't panic on you."
"No, I want wheels on it instead."
"You mean a secondary mode?  Like for inside buildings or city streets or something?"
"No, instead of legs, just wheels."
"... okaaaaaay."

I guess I'd maybe have some enthusiasm if the proceeds for things like this went to something like Paralympics, but nope.

Raise Dead:  This spell also neutralizes any poisons and cures nonmagical diseases that affected the creature at the time it died.

-So anything they are born with disease wise, its cured, that will fix born crippled.

Heal: Choose a creature that you can see within range. A surge of positive energy washes through the creature, causing it to regain 70 hit points. This spell also ends blindness, deafness, and any diseases affecting the target. This spell has no effect on constructs or undead.

So again any disease that crippled you, its fixed you are walking again.

Regenerate:  The target's severed body members (fingers, legs, tails, and so on), if any, are restored after 2 minutes. If you have the severed part and hold it to the stump, the spell instantaneously causes the limb to knit to the stump.

If your legs got chewed off they are back, and that will also regenerate any nerves.

Reincarnate: You touch a dead humanoid or a piece of a dead humanoid. Provided that the creature has been dead no longer than 10 days, the spell forms a new adult body for it and then calls the soul to enter that body. If the target's soul isn't free or willing to do so, the spell fails.

You get a brand new, perfectly working body of your race or another.

Greater Restoration:  You imbue a creature you touch with positive energy to undo a debilitating effect.

That will fix being crippled that a debilitating effect, rules as written.

There is literally no in game reason, rules as written why an adventurer of any worth to the country, would ever be crippled and limited to a chair.  Its just such a ridiculous retarded mongoloid idea to be spewed out of WotC's fronthole.  Its beyond laughable.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 09:47:28 PM

Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2023, 09:38:15 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 09:29:52 PM
You mean a magic wheelchair that weights near to nothing can be dissasembled and assembled instantly, maybe even floats would be cheaper?

I absolutely did not say anything like that.  THAT sounds dumb as hell. 

If those characters have chairs that are basically just legs with a different coat of paint, then yeah, fuck that.

I'm just saying that in certain fantasy settings characters might need some cunning devices to help them out, which is also dependent on setting like I said in the part immediately after what you put in bold.

Well, how else do you think the cripples can go dungeonering? Either they are filthy rich and can get a new wheelchair shipped to them instantly or they can take them with them in the adventure, which means it has to have some heavy spells cast on it else the cripple is a burden to the rest of the team.

If they are motivated enough, it depends on how the game is set up.  Dark Sun?  They get eaten, I bet.  Maybe there is room for a psychic to hold back like a Shadowrun Rigger and do astral shenanigans, I wouldn't know.  Eberron?  That setting has some industrial level magic and artifice, so maybe it is an exotic option, but still an option.  Forgotten Realms?  God only knows, there is some crazy stuff in there and I stopped paying attention years ago.


I just think that some settings or campaigns might have grey areas between hoping you can find a 13+ level cleric that will give you the time of day for an appropriate donation and somebody that has mobility issues being a complete drain on the party to the point that they are useless as a character and the player might as well give up and roll something new.


Look, be as pissed at whatever perceived virtue signaling you want to lay at the creators of those miniatures feet you want, I'm not concerned or caring about that and maybe you are even right.   All I'm trying to get across is I can see settings and situations where such a thing is more plausible than others even though some people clearly can't imagine it working in anything other than smoothly paved nonsense with gentle slopes and special parking outside the dungeon door.

Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2023, 10:17:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 09:47:28 PM

Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2023, 09:38:15 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 09:29:52 PM
You mean a magic wheelchair that weights near to nothing can be dissasembled and assembled instantly, maybe even floats would be cheaper?

I absolutely did not say anything like that.  THAT sounds dumb as hell. 

If those characters have chairs that are basically just legs with a different coat of paint, then yeah, fuck that.

I'm just saying that in certain fantasy settings characters might need some cunning devices to help them out, which is also dependent on setting like I said in the part immediately after what you put in bold.

Well, how else do you think the cripples can go dungeonering? Either they are filthy rich and can get a new wheelchair shipped to them instantly or they can take them with them in the adventure, which means it has to have some heavy spells cast on it else the cripple is a burden to the rest of the team.

If they are motivated enough, it depends on how the game is set up.  Dark Sun?  They get eaten, I bet.  Maybe there is room for a psychic to hold back like a Shadowrun Rigger and do astral shenanigans, I wouldn't know.  Eberron?  That setting has some industrial level magic and artifice, so maybe it is an exotic option, but still an option.  Forgotten Realms?  God only knows, there is some crazy stuff in there and I stopped paying attention years ago.


I just think that some settings or campaigns might have grey areas between hoping you can find a 13+ level cleric that will give you the time of day for an appropriate donation and somebody that has mobility issues being a complete drain on the party to the point that they are useless as a character and the player might as well give up and roll something new.


Look, be as pissed at whatever perceived virtue signaling you want to lay at the creators of those miniatures feet you want, I'm not concerned or caring about that and maybe you are even right.   All I'm trying to get across is I can see settings and situations where such a thing is more plausible than others even though some people clearly can't imagine it working in anything other than smoothly paved nonsense with gentle slopes and special parking outside the dungeon door.

Dude this isn't settings.  This isn't rules.  This is IGNORING basic humanity wants and desires.  No one wants to roleplay as a cripple.  NO ONE.  No one wants to roleplay as an obese gasbag who blows puss out of boils on their face.  At best, you have sock puppet grievance studies assholes grifting the fuck out of WotC for a handout by calling WotC Racist/Ableist etc to get a free writing gig putting out content NO ONE wants.  In 30 years of DM'ing I've never had one person ask: I really want to be crippled.  Including a fraternity brother with cerebal palsy who used crutches who played a bad ass barbarian never said "You know what, I really want to play crippled in the game it completes me".  No, he played a bad ass gay Conan with an axe, it got old rolling "I try to seduce the bartender" in every fucking town.

Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2023, 10:17:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 09:47:28 PM

Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2023, 09:38:15 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 09:29:52 PM
You mean a magic wheelchair that weights near to nothing can be dissasembled and assembled instantly, maybe even floats would be cheaper?

I absolutely did not say anything like that.  THAT sounds dumb as hell. 

If those characters have chairs that are basically just legs with a different coat of paint, then yeah, fuck that.

I'm just saying that in certain fantasy settings characters might need some cunning devices to help them out, which is also dependent on setting like I said in the part immediately after what you put in bold.

Well, how else do you think the cripples can go dungeonering? Either they are filthy rich and can get a new wheelchair shipped to them instantly or they can take them with them in the adventure, which means it has to have some heavy spells cast on it else the cripple is a burden to the rest of the team.

If they are motivated enough, it depends on how the game is set up.  Dark Sun?  They get eaten, I bet.  Maybe there is room for a psychic to hold back like a Shadowrun Rigger and do astral shenanigans, I wouldn't know.  Eberron?  That setting has some industrial level magic and artifice, so maybe it is an exotic option, but still an option.  Forgotten Realms?  God only knows, there is some crazy stuff in there and I stopped paying attention years ago.


I just think that some settings or campaigns might have grey areas between hoping you can find a 13+ level cleric that will give you the time of day for an appropriate donation and somebody that has mobility issues being a complete drain on the party to the point that they are useless as a character and the player might as well give up and roll something new.


Look, be as pissed at whatever perceived virtue signaling you want to lay at the creators of those miniatures feet you want, I'm not concerned or caring about that and maybe you are even right.   All I'm trying to get across is I can see settings and situations where such a thing is more plausible than others even though some people clearly can't imagine it working in anything other than smoothly paved nonsense with gentle slopes and special parking outside the dungeon door.

I'm mostly pissed because it's dumb and unnimaginative, not the first time we discuss these contraptions.

In the settings where you're thinking it would be possible you still haven't solved the practicality unless the chair has some serious spells/mechanisms.

Then we need to discuss the dumbness and lack of imagination, it's clearly someone without imagination inserting modern shit into the game for woke points:

Mechanical/magical/Magimechanical spider legs, four legs that give you your mobility back plus your speed climbing almost any surface is the same as walking.

A flying carpet.

Tenser's Flying Disk from 4e

Now we have a cripple without ANY of the limitations inherent to being one, so why make the character one in the first place?

Assuming it's not at chargen and the character got mauled at some point in the campaign... Either roll a new one or keep on playing it WITH the inherent limitations it implies.

I wear glasses since I was 15, do you really think I want to play a character with poor eyesight?

I'm also an aspie, as far as I can I try to play my characters not like me.

In my current group the younger player has some speech issues, he choose to play a fucking bard! And Lyle had no speech issues, was charming and a ladies man, something my friend isn't.

I've played as women once or twice (or more but who keeps the tally?), I've played as a wookie, a Vulcan, an Elf, Dwarf and other assorted not humans, I've played as a ripped Barbarian by Crom!. Not once have I wanted to play as a scrawny (when young) or dad bod four eyes nerd (with failing legs in my golden age).

So, it's not only virtue signaling, it's dumb and unimaginative.

Now, in Sci-Fi? Give me that sweet tank threads wheelchair, and I'll live (or die) due to the advantages and disadvantages that come with it.

^
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Ding Ding Ding, we got a winner.

People roleplay what they aren't.  A ton of D&D gamers are socially awkward, the unpopular and the unfit, we play the strong, the smart the popular, always have been.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 23, 2023, 10:00:54 PM
Raise Dead:  This spell also neutralizes any poisons and cures nonmagical diseases that affected the creature at the time it died.

-So anything they are born with disease wise, its cured, that will fix born crippled.

Heal: Choose a creature that you can see within range. A surge of positive energy washes through the creature, causing it to regain 70 hit points. This spell also ends blindness, deafness, and any diseases affecting the target. This spell has no effect on constructs or undead.

So again any disease that crippled you, its fixed you are walking again.

In your game, sure.  In my game, if the disease already did the condition, then damage done and Heal does nothing.

QuoteRegenerate:  The target's severed body members (fingers, legs, tails, and so on), if any, are restored after 2 minutes. If you have the severed part and hold it to the stump, the spell instantaneously causes the limb to knit to the stump.

If your legs got chewed off they are back, and that will also regenerate any nerves.

Yes, I agree here.  Regeneration can actually fix fully damaged tissues.  No problem if you can get it.

QuoteReincarnate: You touch a dead humanoid or a piece of a dead humanoid. Provided that the creature has been dead no longer than 10 days, the spell forms a new adult body for it and then calls the soul to enter that body. If the target's soul isn't free or willing to do so, the spell fails.

You get a brand new, perfectly working body of your race or another.

Okay, granted.  I completely forgot about the spell that could turn you into a badger as an option.  Or I guess in modern D&D it is limited to humanoid characters.  Still, a point that I have to concede if your character has no issues with their new body.

QuoteGreater Restoration:  You imbue a creature you touch with positive energy to undo a debilitating effect.

That will fix being crippled that a debilitating effect, rules as written.

Read the whole spell.  From the way you are quoting it sounds like you are copy pasting from 5e, and there are only four things Greater Restoration fixes and none of them are necessarily legs not working right.  Curses and restoring ability scores are the closest, but not silver bullets for all situations.

QuoteThere is literally no in game reason, rules as written why an adventurer of any worth to the country, would ever be crippled and limited to a chair.  Its just such a ridiculous retarded mongoloid idea to be spewed out of WotC's fronthole.  Its beyond laughable.

If you are talking worth to the country, I guess you have a point.  A nation probably wouldn't act as patron to somebody they couldn't see functioning.  But in over 25 years of gaming I've never played in any game where "worth to the country" was a factor in whether or not a person went out adventuring.   Heard of them sure, seen published adventures, sure.  Played in?  No.

I'll happily have characters in my games that could be fantasy equivalents of Professor Xs or Susanna Deans or Barbara Gordons or the like.

That two weapon wielding "not a slayer, I swear" dwarf back there though... that is... that isn't right.  There is a line for everybody and I just can't see crossing over that one.

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WotC's motivations and degree of care put in though? That isn't something I'm going to argue about.  They probably didn't give any of that a lick of consideration, just picked up on a loud trend and ran with it, which is shameful.  I've been in gaming situations where a character might have use of such a thing, but blindly throwing out "Look how considerate we are!" as a blank check is just lazy.  They took what might have been an interesting option for some types of characters (NPCs and PCs alike) and just slapped a broad brush of permission across it like it was easy as wearing shoes or sandals.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 23, 2023, 10:28:11 PM
Dude this isn't settings.  This isn't rules.  This is IGNORING basic humanity wants and desires.  No one wants to roleplay as a cripple.  NO ONE. 

And yet, I still did and had fun with it for a good few years of gaming.  I know one more person in my social group that plays characters with similar issues to him because he enjoys overcoming his obstacles in a heroic setting, but that is an anecdote that will probably get me called a liar here because no one could EVER like something that seems kind of odd to someone else.

QuoteNo one wants to roleplay as an obese gasbag who blows puss out of boils on their face.

Do you actually believe that people are divided into people who can walk normally and medical disasters that can't wipe their own ass?   Nothing in between?  You either aren't in a chair or you have to shit in a bag and you can't piss except through a tube?  No, don't bother answering that, I can't see where the opinion of somebody who resorts to "retarted mongoloid" as an insult could possibly matter.

Into the ignore box with you.

Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2023, 10:58:56 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 23, 2023, 10:00:54 PM
Raise Dead:  This spell also neutralizes any poisons and cures nonmagical diseases that affected the creature at the time it died.

-So anything they are born with disease wise, its cured, that will fix born crippled.

Heal: Choose a creature that you can see within range. A surge of positive energy washes through the creature, causing it to regain 70 hit points. This spell also ends blindness, deafness, and any diseases affecting the target. This spell has no effect on constructs or undead.

So again any disease that crippled you, its fixed you are walking again.

In your game, sure.  In my game, if the disease already did the condition, then damage done and Heal does nothing.

QuoteRegenerate:  The target's severed body members (fingers, legs, tails, and so on), if any, are restored after 2 minutes. If you have the severed part and hold it to the stump, the spell instantaneously causes the limb to knit to the stump.

If your legs got chewed off they are back, and that will also regenerate any nerves.

Yes, I agree here.  Regeneration can actually fix fully damaged tissues.  No problem if you can get it.

QuoteReincarnate: You touch a dead humanoid or a piece of a dead humanoid. Provided that the creature has been dead no longer than 10 days, the spell forms a new adult body for it and then calls the soul to enter that body. If the target's soul isn't free or willing to do so, the spell fails.

You get a brand new, perfectly working body of your race or another.

Okay, granted.  I completely forgot about the spell that could turn you into a badger as an option.  Or I guess in modern D&D it is limited to humanoid characters.  Still, a point that I have to concede if your character has no issues with their new body.

QuoteGreater Restoration:  You imbue a creature you touch with positive energy to undo a debilitating effect.

That will fix being crippled that a debilitating effect, rules as written.

Read the whole spell.  From the way you are quoting it sounds like you are copy pasting from 5e, and there are only four things Greater Restoration fixes and none of them are necessarily legs not working right.  Curses and restoring ability scores are the closest, but not silver bullets for all situations.

QuoteThere is literally no in game reason, rules as written why an adventurer of any worth to the country, would ever be crippled and limited to a chair.  Its just such a ridiculous retarded mongoloid idea to be spewed out of WotC's fronthole.  Its beyond laughable.

If you are talking worth to the country, I guess you have a point.  A nation probably wouldn't act as patron to somebody they couldn't see functioning.  But in over 25 years of gaming I've never played in any game where "worth to the country" was a factor in whether or not a person went out adventuring.   Heard of them sure, seen published adventures, sure.  Played in?  No.

I'll happily have characters in my games that could be fantasy equivalents of Professor Xs or Susanna Deans or Barbara Gordons or the like.

That two weapon wielding "not a slayer, I swear" dwarf back there though... that is... that isn't right.  There is a line for everybody and I just can't see crossing over that one.

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WotC's motivations and degree of care put in though? That isn't something I'm going to argue about.  They probably didn't give any of that a lick of consideration, just picked up on a loud trend and ran with it, which is shameful.  I've been in gaming situations where a character might have use of such a thing, but blindly throwing out "Look how considerate we are!" as a blank check is just lazy.  They took what might have been an interesting option for some types of characters (NPCs and PCs alike) and just slapped a broad brush of permission across it like it was easy as wearing shoes or sandals.

Two of those DO NOT go adventuring but are mentors, not sure about Odetta since I read the series once a long time ago, is she still crippled in the other world? Does she go adventuring? Is there something that eliminates all the dissadvantages of being crippled?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 10:41:50 PMI'm mostly pissed because it's dumb and unnimaginative, not the first time we discuss these contraptions.

THIS I can get behind.   The stuff WotC put out is clearly pretty damn lazy and I can see getting upset about it.  The fact that these chairs by their published rules are "Legs+" and not mobility options with their own downsides or considerations is a waste.

Gotta say, GeekyBugle, happy to see you are still around.  I've butted heads with you on some topics before I think, but it is in general a good kind of argument that helps think of new things rather than just hidebound door slammery.

Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2023, 11:14:19 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 10:41:50 PMI'm mostly pissed because it's dumb and unnimaginative, not the first time we discuss these contraptions.

THIS I can get behind.   The stuff WotC put out is clearly pretty damn lazy and I can see getting upset about it.  The fact that these chairs by their published rules are "Legs+" and not mobility options with their own downsides or considerations is a waste.

Gotta say, GeekyBugle, happy to see you are still around.  I've butted heads with you on some topics before I think, but it is in general a good kind of argument that helps think of new things rather than just hidebound door slammery.

1.- If you're arguing for allowing people to play a character with dissabilities WITHOUT a contraption that makes the dissabilities go away and then some I've got no beef, you do you boo.

2.- I've been known for butting heads with some people now and again, and again, and again, ad nauseaum

Edited to add:

Unless we're playing supers, then having Daredevil have a power that negates his blindness but has it's own set of dissadvantages is perfectly fine.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 11:13:37 PM
Two of those DO NOT go adventuring but are mentors, not sure about Odetta since I read the series once a long time ago, is she still crippled in the other world? Does she go adventuring? Is there something that eliminates all the dissadvantages of being crippled?

They themselves may not go on traditional adventures, but characters like them could.   Spellcasters most likely, or artificers in their own right.  Archers or gunmen, so long as they can get dropped in a good spot first.

And Susanna/Odetta/Detta absolutely stayed legless in the other world, kept on adventuring, and nothing eliminated the disadvantages of her missing everything from the knees down.  She had to be carried sometimes and the chair wasn't always a great conveyance.  Her first one chair was a nightmare because it was basically an armchair with wheels, heavy and lumbering on anything other than a smooth surface, which there were very few of.  Didn't stop her from being a gunslinger, though.  She who shoots with her legs has forgotten the face of her father, or something like that.

The Ghostbusters cartoon that had Egon mentoring some teen investigators had a wheelchair guy too.  Worked better in NY, but he still had to tip himself down stairs sometimes and blast ghosts prone from what I remember. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 11:18:17 PM
Edited to add:

Unless we're playing supers, then having Daredevil have a power that negates his blindness but has it's own set of dissadvantages is perfectly fine.

Daredevil and Toph Beifong, yeah.  Blind as bats, but yeah, disadvantages that don't just make it all go away.

Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2023, 11:23:58 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 23, 2023, 11:18:17 PM
Edited to add:

Unless we're playing supers, then having Daredevil have a power that negates his blindness but has it's own set of dissadvantages is perfectly fine.

Daredevil and Toph Beifong, yeah.  Blind as bats, but yeah, disadvantages that don't just make it all go away.

Toph was a great character.

And they should have kept Babs as Oracle and Cassandra as Batgirl. But DC is run by idiots.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 22, 2023, 11:33:53 AM
Not mention that for gamers who ARE handicapped permanently the last damn thing they want during their escapist fantasy game is to be reminded of their less than fantastic reality. It is their opportunity be someone else for a while.

Actually some of us do. But not for the expected reasons.

For me and a few others I talked to on this back in my GenCon days the recurring reason we might was simply that we lacked any frame of reference to play a normal person. We all still experiment though. But its like playing an alien that can only see moving objects.

Quote from: Manic Modron on August 23, 2023, 09:25:52 PM

Depends on how a game deals with injuries, doesn't it?

Nope.  Talking RAW per D&D.  NOT house rules which can be infinite in variety. BAD counter argument