Perception Rolls

Ratman_tf · June 06, 2024, 04:32:36 AM

Quote from: Dracones on June 05, 2024, 11:05:03 PMPerception is a pretty bad mechanic. If you have 6 players at your table vs 2 players at your table it completely changes the chances for players to find whatever.

I don't mind this. More people searching means more eyes on the situation. Makes sense for the odds to change.

QuoteI've also seem GM's frustrated when players missed a perception roll to find Important Plot Device X. And does it feel good as a GM when the players roll bad and miss the secret door leading to the good loot?

Anything critical to advancing the adventure should not be gated behind a single dice roll like a perception check. Bottlenecking in general is poor adventure design.

Hiding optional loot behind a perception check is ok with me. I do this often and there's a certain kind of "gambling" psychology going on. Like getting a lucky jackpot when they do make it.

Monero · June 09, 2024, 09:45:14 PM

Perception checks should almost always be passive. You either notice or hear something or you don't. If you're actively trying to search for something, or discover a trap, or whatever, that should almost always be an Investigation roll.

If you don't do the above when running 5e, Perception rolls will be spammed all session long.

Eric Diaz · June 10, 2024, 10:18:18 AM

Perception checks are like any other check.

Avoid the extremes, only roll when the result is not obvious.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2019/02/perception-check-roll-playing-versus.html

Example.

There are six statues in a room with painting, furniture, etc. One of the statues (a mermaid) has a single (and valuable) emerald eye, but this is somewhat concealed by darkness, painting, etc.

"I search the room for treasure" would find nothing (no roll). "I search the statues' eyes" or "I examine the mermaid statue" would automatically succeed. "I examine the statues for something strange" would generate a perception check.

jhkim · June 10, 2024, 10:52:28 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 10, 2024, 10:18:18 AMExample.

There are six statues in a room with painting, furniture, etc. One of the statues (a mermaid) has a single (and valuable) emerald eye, but this is somewhat concealed by darkness, painting, etc.

"I search the room for treasure" would find nothing (no roll). "I search the statues' eyes" or "I examine the mermaid statue" would automatically succeed. "I examine the statues for something strange" would generate a perception check.

The question is what player behavior is encouraged. Should players be encouraged to repeat back the contents of the room? I.e. "I search the dryad statue." "I search the satyr statue." etc. until they get to the mermaid?

That does help emphasize the description. However, some players might find it repetitive.

Eric Diaz · June 10, 2024, 11:13:49 AM

It is up to the players, I think. It doesn't need to be repetitive - "I search each statue thoroughly for 10 minutes" is an automatic success IMO.

Now its up to the DM to describe the statues as appropriate until the PCs find the eye. The DM can encourage the level of detail with questions: "you notice there is a satyr, a dryad... which do you examine first?".

In short: it is always a matter of shades of gray, never should be "I always roll perception" or "I never roll perception ".

Anon Adderlan · June 10, 2024, 12:11:15 PM

Quote from: Monero on June 09, 2024, 09:45:14 PMPerception rolls will be spammed all session long.

Well it is the only roll players call for after all.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 10, 2024, 10:18:18 AMonly roll when the result is not obvious.

Obvious by whose definition?

This really is the heart of the issue, and given the sole source of perception in trad games is GM description they effectively have complete control. And if you've ever studied the magician's force you'll know exactly how complete that control is.

So if you want your players to notice a thing, just have them notice a thing. What do you have to gain with rolling beyond wasted time?

SHARK · June 10, 2024, 01:14:34 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 10, 2024, 10:18:18 AMPerception checks are like any other check.

Avoid the extremes, only roll when the result is not obvious.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2019/02/perception-check-roll-playing-versus.html

Example.

There are six statues in a room with painting, furniture, etc. One of the statues (a mermaid) has a single (and valuable) emerald eye, but this is somewhat concealed by darkness, painting, etc.

"I search the room for treasure" would find nothing (no roll). "I search the statues' eyes" or "I examine the mermaid statue" would automatically succeed. "I examine the statues for something strange" would generate a perception check.

Greetings!

Yep! I agree, Eric Diaz! Keep things simple, straightforward, and consistent.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Lurkndog · June 12, 2024, 11:13:38 AM

If the item is important to the plot, then discovering it should be automatic.

In which case, the perception check merely determines which player character finds it.

Wednesday · July 16, 2024, 02:13:24 PM

I wrote a commentary on this exact issue recently for a magazine which I won't shill here, but the general idea is that the question of do I or do I not see a monster is one of the most fundamental mechanics in TTRPGs. There many ways to approach it mechanically, and personally I like 5e's passive skill scores for this while saving hard "roll the dice" skill checks for when a player specifically mentions they are looking for something. Just raising the question to your players instills a sense of tension, their imaginations will fill in the possibilities of what they MIGHT be missing out on.

Banjo Destructo · July 16, 2024, 04:47:25 PM

I'm a very observant person in real life. If the wife or kids are missing something, I'm usually the one who finds it. I don't like the mechanics for perception checks and they have crept in to being used far too frequently at some tables.
I think maybe only using it for enemies that are hiding, and secret doors/compartments is about as far as I'd go for perception, otherwise players find things when they say they're searching around.
Instead of using failed rolls as a pressure point for failure, I keep turns/time behind the scenes and have random encounters be the pressure point for actions/time spent.

HappyDaze · July 17, 2024, 03:34:11 AM

This question is even more meaningful in a game like Rolemaster where "perception" is a group of skills rather than just one...and then there are all the "sitational awareness" skills and such. My friend loved it, I wasn't nearly so taken by it as it just seemed a way to suck up development points even faster.

Mishihari · July 17, 2024, 03:50:08 AM

I like perception rolls, but it sounds like I handle them a bit differently. A location will often have a bunch of things to notice with different numerical difficulty. The guy with the best perception rolls (or I do it for a secret, passive check) and he notices everything with a difficulty less than the roll. You can get a bit of a bonus by spending more time on it.

In a recent playtest I ran, the guy with the high skill loved being Sherlock Homes and finding the subtle clues.

You don't put things necessary for the adventure to progress behind any single check, of course. That's just bad design. If the players need some info there should be multiple ways to get at it.

Spinachcat · July 17, 2024, 05:02:13 AM

Obvious sights and sounds should be obvious.

Hidden things are hidden and require finding.

Subtle things might be missed by those not paying close enough attention, but noticed by those whose awareness is greater than their peers.

AKA, roll the dice when it adds something to the game, but the rest of the time, put yourself in the place of the character and describe what their senses are telling them.