People Claiming Gygax was a Grifter...

Brad · December 09, 2023, 10:29:02 AM

Quote from: Omega on December 08, 2023, 11:49:59 PM
What does that have to do with Gygax doing the heavy lifting for Arneson?

Just typical revisionist history that seems to be prevalent whenever Gygax is brought up now. "He stole everything from Arneson!" Yeah, okay, then explain Arneson literally being second author of D&D, even though he wrote about two pages of (from what I have heard relayed by people who were there) incomprehensible gibberish. Gygax took an idea that is almost impossible to understand without seeing it in play and did a good first attempt. But alas, he started a company that eventually made a lot of money, so he's an evil bastard per Marxists.

mcbobbo · December 09, 2023, 12:14:56 PM

Quote from: Brad on December 09, 2023, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: Omega on December 08, 2023, 11:49:59 PM
What does that have to do with Gygax doing the heavy lifting for Arneson?

Just typical revisionist history that seems to be prevalent whenever Gygax is brought up now.

I'm sorry who is a Marxist making that claim, exactly?

And it isn't as revisionist, as it is a.reducto ad absurdum. There are more than two people who deserve credit.

Brad · December 09, 2023, 02:33:38 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on December 09, 2023, 12:14:56 PM
Quote from: Brad on December 09, 2023, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: Omega on December 08, 2023, 11:49:59 PM
What does that have to do with Gygax doing the heavy lifting for Arneson?

Just typical revisionist history that seems to be prevalent whenever Gygax is brought up now.

I'm sorry who is a Marxist making that claim, exactly?

And it isn't as revisionist, as it is a.reducto ad absurdum. There are more than two people who deserve credit.

Rob Kuntz should legitimately be second author, not Arneson, and yet Gygax left out Kuntz and out Arneson instead as a gesture of goodwill. Further, the janitor at the movie studio is part of a production, but the writer/director/producer are the ones actually making a film. Not every delivery boy with sandwiches needs to have their name in the closing credits.

mcbobbo · December 09, 2023, 05:33:46 PM

Quote from: Brad on December 09, 2023, 02:33:38 PM
Not every delivery boy with sandwiches needs to have their name in the closing credits.

Someone not credited created hit points and armor class. That's a hell of a sandwich, still in use today.

Jam The MF · December 09, 2023, 06:49:28 PM

I wish the parting of ways, had been more amicable; between Gygax and Arneson. Arneson was talented, and imaginative; and perhaps someone else in his group could have eventually helped him share his gaming ideas, with the rest of the world? But, Gygax got the ball rolling. He created a tremendous amount, beyond what Arneson created.

This debate can't be won. It just "is". It took both of them, to give us what they gave us.

jhkim · December 09, 2023, 07:25:24 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 09, 2023, 06:49:28 PM
I wish the parting of ways, had been more amicable; between Gygax and Arneson. Arneson was talented, and imaginative; and perhaps someone else in his group could have eventually helped him share his gaming ideas, with the rest of the world? But, Gygax got the ball rolling. He created a tremendous amount, beyond what Arneson created.

This debate can't be won. It just "is". It took both of them, to give us what they gave us.

I'd add at least David Wesely into the mix, since his Braunstein games were well-regarded and run as the inspiration. They were fully RPGs in that each player had an individual character, but it was in a Napoleonic setting rather than fantasy. Arneson was played in some of these and was clearly inspired by them when he ran his Blackmoor games.

From what I understand, Arneson's Braunstein-style games set in Blackmoor were very popular and fun for the people playing, but he was a terrible writer and wasn't any good at writing up what he was doing. So it wasn't that his design was unworkable, just that he wasn't good at documenting it.

I'm sure that David Wesely had inspirations and support as well.

Omega · December 10, 2023, 02:02:39 AM

Quote from: Brad on December 09, 2023, 02:33:38 PM
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 09, 2023, 12:14:56 PM
Quote from: Brad on December 09, 2023, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: Omega on December 08, 2023, 11:49:59 PM
What does that have to do with Gygax doing the heavy lifting for Arneson?

Just typical revisionist history that seems to be prevalent whenever Gygax is brought up now.

I'm sorry who is a Marxist making that claim, exactly?

And it isn't as revisionist, as it is a.reducto ad absurdum. There are more than two people who deserve credit.

Rob Kuntz should legitimately be second author, not Arneson, and yet Gygax left out Kuntz and out Arneson instead as a gesture of goodwill. Further, the janitor at the movie studio is part of a production, but the writer/director/producer are the ones actually making a film. Not every delivery boy with sandwiches needs to have their name in the closing credits.

Just an off topic... But carering services used to get credited in movies for a while. Not sure if anyone still does though. Used to notice it during the 70s and 80s.

mcbobbo · December 10, 2023, 08:10:11 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 09, 2023, 07:25:24 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 09, 2023, 06:49:28 PM
I wish the parting of ways, had been more amicable; between Gygax and Arneson. Arneson was talented, and imaginative; and perhaps someone else in his group could have eventually helped him share his gaming ideas, with the rest of the world? But, Gygax got the ball rolling. He created a tremendous amount, beyond what Arneson created.

This debate can't be won. It just "is". It took both of them, to give us what they gave us.

I'd add at least David Wesely into the mix, since his Braunstein games were well-regarded and run as the inspiration. They were fully RPGs in that each player had an individual character, but it was in a Napoleonic setting rather than fantasy. Arneson was played in some of these and was clearly inspired by them when he ran his Blackmoor games.

From what I understand, Arneson's Braunstein-style games set in Blackmoor were very popular and fun for the people playing, but he was a terrible writer and wasn't any good at writing up what he was doing. So it wasn't that his design was unworkable, just that he wasn't good at documenting it.

I'm sure that David Wesely had inspirations and support as well.

Sometimes I wonder if these forums are functioning correctly. You've made this point twice now and it gets zero acknowledgement. It is intellectually dishonest to ignore points you can't refute if you ask me.