Quote from: jhkim on August 20, 2021, 01:37:12 AM
Even if I was white and he considered me genetically worthy, I still wouldn't give him money.

You'll be relieved to know that European Nazis and many American Neo-Nazis seem fine with east-Asians!  At most there's a kind of genial contempt. Obviously they're against east-Asian immigration & race mixing though.

Well besides this, people who deny self realization, personal accountability and responsibility and then heap all of lifes misfortunes on the other become addicted to doing so.

If they succeeded and wiped the other from the earth, would just have to find a new other to replace it with.

In fact the more successful a racist movement becomes the more others it collects. It might start off as only victimizing one small section of the human race but watch out it won't be long till it adds to it.

Racism is a horrible unhealthy self defense mechanism that not only destructive to the self but society as a whole. It's also incredibly attractive to the unhealthy mind. What's wrong with my life isn't my fault, this was done to me by the other. I'm not to blame for past mistakes because the other did it to me. If only the other wasn't here I would be so much better.

It spreads quickly from unhealthy mind to unhealthy mind like a virus. Facing ones own faults and mistakes working to make yourself better is hard and painful. So much easier to give in and place blame on the other and enjoy the comradery and warmth of the group. At least until the list of the others grows so large as to include you.

Quote from: S'mon on August 20, 2021, 04:47:12 AM

Quote from: jhkim on August 20, 2021, 01:37:12 AM
Even if I was white and he considered me genetically worthy, I still wouldn't give him money.

You'll be relieved to know that European Nazis and many American Neo-Nazis seem fine with east-Asians!  At most there's a kind of genial contempt. Obviously they're against east-Asian immigration & race mixing though.

I am mixed-race, though, so sadly I don't qualify for their respect.

Darn!

Quote from: jhkim on August 20, 2021, 01:37:12 AM

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral on August 19, 2021, 08:48:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2021, 08:16:00 PM
Varg might not currently openly avow nazism and spent his time in prison for the murder he committed, but he's still a racist shitbag. His game Myfarog explicitly has "Darklings", "Weaklings", and "Foreigners" as races that are all flatly inferior to white natives. I believe in forgiveness, but that forgiveness depends on the person showing genuine remorse and reform. He is welcome to his free speech writes to produce white supremacy RPGs, but I'm sure as hell not going to buy them.

For comparison, Arno Michaelis is someone who also was a violent white supremacist. However, Arno reformed. Now he actively works against white supremacy - trying to reach out and get people out of the movement. He is the author of the book "My Life After Hate" which I would recommend.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11148558-my-life-after-hate

I think there's a completely difference between Varg and Arno. People should get second chances, but that should come with making a genuine change and atonement, not just time passed.

Yes exactly, that's the point I am trying to make. That and people like your example - to get people out of that evil mindset there has to be some real chance of being able to come back. One of the things that convinced me of this was an interview I read a long time ago with someone who worked on de-radicalizing neo-Nazis in the former East Germany, and how important it was that they not be totally abandoned by non-crazy people in their life. Otherwise they're in a horrible echo chamber with no way out.

I'm alarmed that your reply and Mistwell's seemed to be taking mine as some kind of defense or support of Varg. No way. Like I said, I don't give money to people trying to do me harm.

You're phrasing it in terms of doing you harm.

As my quick rule of thumb for how I choose to spend my money in response to Gameogre's point about how complicated this landscape is in the hobby right now. You're right that it was expressed poorly, I wouldn't buy from someone trying to hurt people who disagreed with me, either, nor people in general. I've never run into that problem, though. I've never been tempted to buy from Varg, and there's few other people out there saying they aim to go hurt people. Most of the conflict in the hobby right now comes from people who are convinced that they are morally right without doubt working to deplatform and actively exclude those who disagree. Whether to buy in that case can feel tricky, which is why I put it down to whether the creator and I just disagree, or whether the creator is going out and trying to demand conformity or actively mess with people.

In other words, I'm trying to consciously avoid an ideological purity test while making sure I exclude any actually bad actors, e.g. Varg.

Quote from: jhkim on August 20, 2021, 01:37:12 AM
From my view, I don't give a damn if Varg is trying to do me harm personally. I have a high bar for boycotting something - but he's an unrepentant arsonist and murderer who is actively trying to spread racist crap in his RPG. Even if I was white and he considered me genetically worthy, I still wouldn't give him money.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral on August 19, 2021, 06:18:01 PM
No, of course just serving time doesn't necessarily make things right. ... While Varg's still being evil, keep treating him like he's evil. ...

if you completely destroy/unperson people and their works, and punish them forever for screwing up, there's nothing they can do to come back from it. That doesn't mean Varg's a cool guy.

Yes, he's unrepentant, so none of my points about giving people who work for a second chance apply. He's free to publish his racist crap, I'd rather not burn the book and I'd rather argue with it out in the open so that he doesn't get to claim it's some oooh special secret censored idea, and it's not hard to argue with at this point. You and I both agree that we won't be giving him money. We even seem to agree that if and when people work for a second chance, it's worth giving it to them, especially since that can help deradicalize people like Varg. Maybe we disagree on book burning? But otherwise it seems like this comes down to "me" in my test, which, fair point, but no I'm not going to give a pass to wannabe mass murderers either.

Quote from: jhkim on August 20, 2021, 11:24:24 AM
I am mixed-race, though, so sadly I don't qualify for their respect.

Darn!

The US ones seem to have mixed feelings on 'Hapas' (sp?) too, but generally negative of course.

Quote from: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 09:40:20 PM
I appreciate those who put some links to review material for Myfarog here. I don't really know a whole lot about it except that every discussion about it seems to devolve into a personal litmus test about Varg. He's a polarizing figure, and I understand any responses that refuse to support a guy with a sordid history, but it's annoying how the whole drama situation always overshadows the game's merits/flaws.

It's sort of the opposite of polarizing. Almost everyone except neo-nazis recognize the man is absolute human garbage.

Quote from: Zelen on August 10, 2021, 09:40:20 PM
I appreciate those who put some links to review material for Myfarog here. I don't really know a whole lot about it except that every discussion about it seems to devolve into a personal litmus test about Varg. He's a polarizing figure, and I understand any responses that refuse to support a guy with a sordid history, but it's annoying how the whole drama situation always overshadows the game's merits/flaws.

Sure. Here's a review that points out what kind of person Varg is and the shit that is his game:

https://www.metalsucks.net/2015/08/21/advanced-discrimination-dragons-critical-look-varg-vikernes-myfarog-rpg/

This piece of shit game is getting too many conversations on this forum, which leads me to think its people who are members of Varg's fan club trying to shill for his neo-nazi trash.

Being a Neo-nazi will get you banned here.

Quote from: S'mon on August 11, 2021, 06:03:09 AM
I'm pro death penalty, and from what I can tell of the facts I think in a just world Varg ought to have been executed for murder. In which case MYFAROG would not exist. So I guess it 'doesn't deserve to exist', as much as that can apply to a non-sentient entity.

Of course our society is being destroyed mostly by the Far Left (including Far Left murderers in positions of power like Angela Davis, former Weather Underground, & other evildoers), and not at all by the powerless Far Right. That doesn't make Varg any less reprehensible. Punching Right is easy and risk free, punching Left is dangerous. That doesn't mean we should never Punch Right though, IMO.

Varg isn't "right wing".  He's a totalitarian. You should always, always punch totalitarian.

Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 11, 2021, 05:47:59 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on August 10, 2021, 08:44:19 AM
  Do people who hate jews/black people/white people/whatever people have a right to exist?

Yes. Get out of your post-modern bubble and you'll see that this was the norm for millenia. Prejudice, "XeNoPhOBiA", racial and national resentments, ethnocentrism, stereotypes, etc. have been the standard mindset of entire civilizations

Yes, of savages. You're arguing for savagery.

Stay on the topic or you'll be banned.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral on August 19, 2021, 06:18:01 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 19, 2021, 04:09:44 PM

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral on August 19, 2021, 12:27:50 PM

Quote from: Gameogre on August 19, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
I have a heard time with this stuff because I feel like people who have done horrible things in the past and paid for those things deserve a fresh chance. I'm not someone who is easy on crime. You break our rules you pay the price and hopefully learn from your mistake. That said, once you have paid the price, You have paid the price and should be punished no more.

Redemption. This is one of the things that pushed me toward the right as a life-long lefty. My left-liberal friends completely abandoned the idea, all the way into how they viewed fiction: Vader's redemption didn't matter to them anymore. That was one of my "something is very wrong here" moments. I think you're right, and that this is one of the big foundation stones shifting that is at the root of many of our current problems.

Quote from: Gameogre on August 19, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
So I'm getting mighty stingy with my money these days and trying to buy anything is becoming more and more like something I need a computer algorithm for.

What I've settled into is: buying on the merits, from anyone who isn't actively campaigning to hurt me for disagreeing. After all, as long as we can talk without destroying each other, one or both of us can always be redeemed.

I mean, we're talking about a guy who is racist, sexist, and antiemetic still. He still talks about a vast Jewish conspiracy to import Muslims to destroy Europe and how women are inherently intellectually inferior to men and the purity of Norwegian blood. Him serving time in prison doesn't redeem him. That's not in some distant past, that's recent. His YouTube channel was shut down in 2019 for those very things.

No, of course just serving time doesn't necessarily make things right. But we're also talking about whether works of art by people who have screwed up deserve to be destroyed, or works of art that contain evil ideas should be destroyed, and whether people should be punished for screw ups in perpetuity with no second chances, even after paying for it. While Varg's still being evil, keep treating him like he's evil. For an RPG example of how I read Gameogre's point, Adam Koebel paid heavily and apologized for that 2? year old incident, and got punished again recently. Or Zach Jesse, who committed rape in college, worked hard to atone for it, built a decent life, and then got banned from playing Magic after a Twitter campaign dredged up his old conviction.

if you completely destroy/unperson people and their works, and punish them forever for screwing up, there's nothing they can do to come back from it. That doesn't mean Varg's a cool guy.

Except that Varg hasn't done anything at all to indicate any kind of atonement. He's still exactly the same neo-nazi. He wrote an RPG where you kill Jews and blacks in a mythical Aryan Utopia.

Quote from: SHARK on August 19, 2021, 06:30:30 PM
Greetings!

Mobile Oil, Chiquita Banana, and Dole Pineapple have all supported death squads, dictators, and tyranny. Absolute slaughter of tens of thousands of people, and the raping, plundering, and oppression of others. I imagine with fairly strong certainty that *dozens* of other companies--both here in America and abroad--continue to support the tyranny, exploitation, and subjugation of people.

And people continue to buy their products to the tune of BILLIONS of DOLLARS IN PROFIT, each and every day, of every year you have been alive. NIKE shoes, clothing stores, JEWELRY stores, technology, and on and on.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

This is off topic deviation. Don't post in this thread again.

Quote from: oggsmash on August 19, 2021, 06:36:13 PM

Quote from: SHARK on August 19, 2021, 06:30:30 PM
Greetings!

Mobile Oil, Chiquita Banana, and Dole Pineapple have all supported death squads, dictators, and tyranny. Absolute slaughter of tens of thousands of people, and the raping, plundering, and oppression of others. I imagine with fairly strong certainty that *dozens* of other companies--both here in America and abroad--continue to support the tyranny, exploitation, and subjugation of people.

And people continue to buy their products to the tune of BILLIONS of DOLLARS IN PROFIT, each and every day, of every year you have been alive. NIKE shoes, clothing stores, JEWELRY stores, technology, and on and on.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   Dont forget Bayer, the good old nazis.  Even changed the spelling of the company from Baer, for the 'muricans.

This is off topic deviation. Don't post in this thread again.

QuoteVarg isn't "right wing".  He's a totalitarian. You should always, always punch totalitarian.

Only - not. Sure he was in time of church burning and murder, but nowadays while still vile racist, he is some sort of forest anarchoprimitivist tribalist, sort of return to paleolithic almost.
Those are obviously incompatible with totalitarism or neo-nazi which are big-state, Big-Party, usually very pro-industrial things. Varg quite clearly is not. I mean guy is a loon, his racial theories are laughed out even by other racists, and his pushing for pagan Tolkien (who had to pretend to be Catholic due to rigid demands if XX-century English society) is borderline deluded, but let's keep it somehow honest. Now every racist is neo-nazi, I mean no one sans most loon woke would equal Confederate States with Reich, even though both were racist states.

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 20, 2021, 04:50:28 PMExcept that Varg hasn't done anything at all to indicate any kind of atonement. He's still exactly the same neo-nazi. He wrote an RPG where you kill Jews and blacks in a mythical Aryan Utopia.

Yeah, I regret bringing it up here. A thought shook loose and I fired off a post right quick, which was an error in context. I think redemption is important, but this was the wrong damn thread to discuss it.