Quote from: kidkaos2 on August 17, 2021, 03:27:16 PM
I have a similar thing with Zak S who I find to be awesomely talented but I just can't bring myself to get much of his stuff simply because of the type of person he is.

I find a pretty huge gulf between "obnoxious jerk, allegedly not great to gf" and "arsonist murderer", personally.

Quote from: kidkaos2 on August 17, 2021, 03:27:16 PM

I spent some time seriously considering what my ethical position on this thing should be, whether an RPG should stand on its own or whether I should considering the game's creators in making a decision to play it and I ended up deciding that I would not consider someone's beliefs or politics in choosing a game they were involved in, but I would consider their personal behavior and whether I wanted my money going to reward someone who exhibited that behavior, especially if the person was unrepentant about what they'd done.  I do think RPGs are an art form and should stand on their own, so that's why I landed where I did.  I won't blame a game for its creator, but I also don't want my time and money going to support an actual criminal.

I have a really simple practical test on those things that I use:  When I'm playing the game (or listening to the music or watching the movie or whatever), can I focus on the thing?  Or is the person so nasty that it's always sitting in the back of my mind prodding me, "Hey, this thing was made by that disgusting X"? If I know it is going to be the latter, then no sale.  If I'm pretty darn sure that it is likely to be the latter, then it had better be one amazing product, or it is unlikely to bubble to the top of things I'm going to pay attention to. 

People that are setting off principled-based exclusions will be in that category by default, because once I see what they've done to set them off, I can't stop seeing it.   

I have a heard time with this stuff because I feel like people who have done horrible things in the past and paid for those things deserve a fresh chance. I'm not someone who is easy on crime. You break our rules you pay the price and hopefully learn from your mistake. That said, once you have paid the price, You have paid the price and should be punished no more.

Combine this with my view that I do not give a crap what a game designers personal politics are (even if they agree with me) and don't want that stuff in my rpg's or even rpg related stuff(Even if they agree with me) *cough*  *cough* Pundit.

But increasingly angry as all hell at the actual rpg systems spouting political hogwash and making a point of telling me if I buy there products they are going to use it to support politics?

It's no secret that I lean heavily to the right but guess what? The only people I dislike even close to the politicians on the left are the politicians on the right! So I'm getting mighty stingy with my money these days and trying to buy anything is becoming more and more like something I need a computer algorithm for.

Quote from: Gameogre on August 19, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
I have a heard time with this stuff because I feel like people who have done horrible things in the past and paid for those things deserve a fresh chance. I'm not someone who is easy on crime. You break our rules you pay the price and hopefully learn from your mistake. That said, once you have paid the price, You have paid the price and should be punished no more.

Redemption. This is one of the things that pushed me toward the right as a life-long lefty. My left-liberal friends completely abandoned the idea, all the way into how they viewed fiction: Vader's redemption didn't matter to them anymore. That was one of my "something is very wrong here" moments. I think you're right, and that this is one of the big foundation stones shifting that is at the root of many of our current problems.

Quote from: Gameogre on August 19, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
So I'm getting mighty stingy with my money these days and trying to buy anything is becoming more and more like something I need a computer algorithm for.

What I've settled into is: buying on the merits, from anyone who isn't actively campaigning to hurt others for their cause. After all, as long as we can talk without destroying each other, one or both of us can always be redeemed.

Edit: Since apparently it's not clear, I have the same view of Varg that's been expressed over and over already. His racist views and his behavior are abhorrent, but I'm not going to burn his book and he has the right to say that crap despite me not liking it.

Edit2: Clarified my rule since the "me" seemed to be the problem.

Quote from: Gameogre on August 19, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
I have a heard time with this stuff because I feel like people who have done horrible things in the past and paid for those things deserve a fresh chance. I'm not someone who is easy on crime. You break our rules you pay the price and hopefully learn from your mistake. That said, once you have paid the price, You have paid the price and should be punished no more.

Combine this with my view that I do not give a crap what a game designers personal politics are (even if they agree with me) and don't want that stuff in my rpg's or even rpg related stuff(Even if they agree with me) *cough*  *cough* Pundit.

But increasingly angry as all hell at the actual rpg systems spouting political hogwash and making a point of telling me if I buy there products they are going to use it to support politics?

It's no secret that I lean heavily to the right but guess what? The only people I dislike even close to the politicians on the left are the politicians on the right! So I'm getting mighty stingy with my money these days and trying to buy anything is becoming more and more like something I need a computer algorithm for.

I agree with you.  I have seen a few RPGs (Sigmata being a prime case) where I thought the GAME looked neat but didn't want the politics.  I've posted comments on a few saying "Hey this game looks cool but I play RPGs for fun, not to explore political or social issues.  How hard would it be to take that part out and just play this game to have a fun adventure?" and the response I get back more often than not is telling me rudely to go play another game.  I don't mind if someone wants to make a deliberately purposely political RPG, such as Comrades, but it annoys me when a game looks like a good adventure action RPG but then wants to force the enemies to be political opponents of the game designer and the hero characters to believe the same philosophies the game designer believes for no particular game related reason.

Quote from: S'mon on August 17, 2021, 04:08:47 PM

Quote from: kidkaos2 on August 17, 2021, 03:27:16 PM
I have a similar thing with Zak S who I find to be awesomely talented but I just can't bring myself to get much of his stuff simply because of the type of person he is.

I find a pretty huge gulf between "obnoxious jerk, allegedly not great to gf" and "arsonist murderer", personally.

Agreed.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral on August 19, 2021, 12:27:50 PM

Quote from: Gameogre on August 19, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
I have a heard time with this stuff because I feel like people who have done horrible things in the past and paid for those things deserve a fresh chance. I'm not someone who is easy on crime. You break our rules you pay the price and hopefully learn from your mistake. That said, once you have paid the price, You have paid the price and should be punished no more.

Redemption. This is one of the things that pushed me toward the right as a life-long lefty. My left-liberal friends completely abandoned the idea, all the way into how they viewed fiction: Vader's redemption didn't matter to them anymore. That was one of my "something is very wrong here" moments. I think you're right, and that this is one of the big foundation stones shifting that is at the root of many of our current problems.

Quote from: Gameogre on August 19, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
So I'm getting mighty stingy with my money these days and trying to buy anything is becoming more and more like something I need a computer algorithm for.

What I've settled into is: buying on the merits, from anyone who isn't actively campaigning to hurt me for disagreeing. After all, as long as we can talk without destroying each other, one or both of us can always be redeemed.

I mean, we're talking about a guy who is racist, sexist, and antiemetic still. He still talks about a vast Jewish conspiracy to import Muslims to destroy Europe and how women are inherently intellectually inferior to men and the purity of Norwegian blood. Him serving time in prison doesn't redeem him. That's not in some distant past, that's recent. His YouTube channel was shut down in 2019 for those very things.

Quote from: Mistwell on August 19, 2021, 04:09:44 PM

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral on August 19, 2021, 12:27:50 PM

Quote from: Gameogre on August 19, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
I have a heard time with this stuff because I feel like people who have done horrible things in the past and paid for those things deserve a fresh chance. I'm not someone who is easy on crime. You break our rules you pay the price and hopefully learn from your mistake. That said, once you have paid the price, You have paid the price and should be punished no more.

Redemption. This is one of the things that pushed me toward the right as a life-long lefty. My left-liberal friends completely abandoned the idea, all the way into how they viewed fiction: Vader's redemption didn't matter to them anymore. That was one of my "something is very wrong here" moments. I think you're right, and that this is one of the big foundation stones shifting that is at the root of many of our current problems.

Quote from: Gameogre on August 19, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
So I'm getting mighty stingy with my money these days and trying to buy anything is becoming more and more like something I need a computer algorithm for.

What I've settled into is: buying on the merits, from anyone who isn't actively campaigning to hurt me for disagreeing. After all, as long as we can talk without destroying each other, one or both of us can always be redeemed.

I mean, we're talking about a guy who is racist, sexist, and antiemetic still. He still talks about a vast Jewish conspiracy to import Muslims to destroy Europe and how women are inherently intellectually inferior to men and the purity of Norwegian blood. Him serving time in prison doesn't redeem him. That's not in some distant past, that's recent. His YouTube channel was shut down in 2019 for those very things.

No, of course just serving time doesn't necessarily make things right. But we're also talking about whether works of art by people who have screwed up deserve to be destroyed, or works of art that contain evil ideas should be destroyed, and whether people should be punished for screw ups in perpetuity with no second chances, even after paying for it. While Varg's still being evil, keep treating him like he's evil. For an RPG example of how I read Gameogre's point, Adam Koebel paid heavily and apologized for that 2? year old incident, and got punished again recently. Or Zach Jesse, who committed rape in college, worked hard to atone for it, built a decent life, and then got banned from playing Magic after a Twitter campaign dredged up his old conviction.

if you completely destroy/unperson people and their works, and punish them forever for screwing up, there's nothing they can do to come back from it. That doesn't mean Varg's a cool guy.

Greetings!

Mobile Oil, Chiquita Banana, and Dole Pineapple have all supported death squads, dictators, and tyranny. Absolute slaughter of tens of thousands of people, and the raping, plundering, and oppression of others. I imagine with fairly strong certainty that *dozens* of other companies--both here in America and abroad--continue to support the tyranny, exploitation, and subjugation of people.

And people continue to buy their products to the tune of BILLIONS of DOLLARS IN PROFIT, each and every day, of every year you have been alive. NIKE shoes, clothing stores, JEWELRY stores, technology, and on and on.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on August 19, 2021, 06:30:30 PM
Greetings!

Mobile Oil, Chiquita Banana, and Dole Pineapple have all supported death squads, dictators, and tyranny. Absolute slaughter of tens of thousands of people, and the raping, plundering, and oppression of others. I imagine with fairly strong certainty that *dozens* of other companies--both here in America and abroad--continue to support the tyranny, exploitation, and subjugation of people.

And people continue to buy their products to the tune of BILLIONS of DOLLARS IN PROFIT, each and every day, of every year you have been alive. NIKE shoes, clothing stores, JEWELRY stores, technology, and on and on.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   Dont forget Bayer, the good old nazis.  Even changed the spelling of the company from Baer, for the 'muricans.

Quote from: oggsmash on August 19, 2021, 06:36:13 PM

Quote from: SHARK on August 19, 2021, 06:30:30 PM
Greetings!

Mobile Oil, Chiquita Banana, and Dole Pineapple have all supported death squads, dictators, and tyranny. Absolute slaughter of tens of thousands of people, and the raping, plundering, and oppression of others. I imagine with fairly strong certainty that *dozens* of other companies--both here in America and abroad--continue to support the tyranny, exploitation, and subjugation of people.

And people continue to buy their products to the tune of BILLIONS of DOLLARS IN PROFIT, each and every day, of every year you have been alive. NIKE shoes, clothing stores, JEWELRY stores, technology, and on and on.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   Dont forget Bayer, the good old nazis.  Even changed the spelling of the company from Baer, for the 'muricans.

Greetings!

Yep, Ogg! There are *many* companies out there that support all kinds of terrible things. I guess it is a matter of "Out of sight, out of mind".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on August 19, 2021, 07:12:50 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on August 19, 2021, 06:36:13 PM

Quote from: SHARK on August 19, 2021, 06:30:30 PM
Greetings!

Mobile Oil, Chiquita Banana, and Dole Pineapple have all supported death squads, dictators, and tyranny. Absolute slaughter of tens of thousands of people, and the raping, plundering, and oppression of others. I imagine with fairly strong certainty that *dozens* of other companies--both here in America and abroad--continue to support the tyranny, exploitation, and subjugation of people.

And people continue to buy their products to the tune of BILLIONS of DOLLARS IN PROFIT, each and every day, of every year you have been alive. NIKE shoes, clothing stores, JEWELRY stores, technology, and on and on.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   Dont forget Bayer, the good old nazis.  Even changed the spelling of the company from Baer, for the 'muricans.

Greetings!

Yep, Ogg! There are *many* companies out there that support all kinds of terrible things. I guess it is a matter of "Out of sight, out of mind".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   Fanta, created in Nazi germany, for the nazis, by the German Coka Cola bottling company.  Profits before nations, or even what is right or good, amirite?

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral on August 19, 2021, 06:18:01 PM
No, of course just serving time doesn't necessarily make things right. But we're also talking about whether works of art by people who have screwed up deserve to be destroyed, or works of art that contain evil ideas should be destroyed, and whether people should be punished for screw ups in perpetuity with no second chances, even after paying for it. While Varg's still being evil, keep treating him like he's evil.

Varg might not currently openly avow nazism and spent his time in prison for the murder he committed, but he's still a racist shitbag. His game Myfarog explicitly has "Darklings", "Weaklings", and "Foreigners" as races that are all flatly inferior to white natives. I believe in forgiveness, but that forgiveness depends on the person showing genuine remorse and reform. He is welcome to his free speech writes to produce white supremacy RPGs, but I'm sure as hell not going to buy them.

For comparison, Arno Michaelis is someone who also was a violent white supremacist. However, Arno reformed. Now he actively works against white supremacy - trying to reach out and get people out of the movement. He is the author of the book "My Life After Hate" which I would recommend.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11148558-my-life-after-hate

I think there's a completely difference between Varg and Arno. People should get second chances, but that should come with making a genuine change and atonement, not just time passed.

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2021, 08:16:00 PM

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral on August 19, 2021, 06:18:01 PM
No, of course just serving time doesn't necessarily make things right. But we're also talking about whether works of art by people who have screwed up deserve to be destroyed, or works of art that contain evil ideas should be destroyed, and whether people should be punished for screw ups in perpetuity with no second chances, even after paying for it. While Varg's still being evil, keep treating him like he's evil.

Varg might not currently openly avow nazism and spent his time in prison for the murder he committed, but he's still a racist shitbag. His game Myfarog explicitly has "Darklings", "Weaklings", and "Foreigners" as races that are all flatly inferior to white natives. I believe in forgiveness, but that forgiveness depends on the person showing genuine remorse and reform. He is welcome to his free speech writes to produce white supremacy RPGs, but I'm sure as hell not going to buy them.

For comparison, Arno Michaelis is someone who also was a violent white supremacist. However, Arno reformed. Now he actively works against white supremacy - trying to reach out and get people out of the movement. He is the author of the book "My Life After Hate" which I would recommend.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11148558-my-life-after-hate

I think there's a completely difference between Varg and Arno. People should get second chances, but that should come with making a genuine change and atonement, not just time passed.

Yes exactly, that's the point I am trying to make. That and people like your example - to get people out of that evil mindset there has to be some real chance of being able to come back. One of the things that convinced me of this was an interview I read a long time ago with someone who worked on de-radicalizing neo-Nazis in the former East Germany, and how important it was that they not be totally abandoned by non-crazy people in their life. Otherwise they're in a horrible echo chamber with no way out.

I'm alarmed that your reply and Mistwell's seemed to be taking mine as some kind of defense or support of Varg. No way. Like I said, I don't give money to people trying to do me harm.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral on August 19, 2021, 08:48:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on August 19, 2021, 08:16:00 PM
Varg might not currently openly avow nazism and spent his time in prison for the murder he committed, but he's still a racist shitbag. His game Myfarog explicitly has "Darklings", "Weaklings", and "Foreigners" as races that are all flatly inferior to white natives. I believe in forgiveness, but that forgiveness depends on the person showing genuine remorse and reform. He is welcome to his free speech writes to produce white supremacy RPGs, but I'm sure as hell not going to buy them.

For comparison, Arno Michaelis is someone who also was a violent white supremacist. However, Arno reformed. Now he actively works against white supremacy - trying to reach out and get people out of the movement. He is the author of the book "My Life After Hate" which I would recommend.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11148558-my-life-after-hate

I think there's a completely difference between Varg and Arno. People should get second chances, but that should come with making a genuine change and atonement, not just time passed.

Yes exactly, that's the point I am trying to make. That and people like your example - to get people out of that evil mindset there has to be some real chance of being able to come back. One of the things that convinced me of this was an interview I read a long time ago with someone who worked on de-radicalizing neo-Nazis in the former East Germany, and how important it was that they not be totally abandoned by non-crazy people in their life. Otherwise they're in a horrible echo chamber with no way out.

I'm alarmed that your reply and Mistwell's seemed to be taking mine as some kind of defense or support of Varg. No way. Like I said, I don't give money to people trying to do me harm.

You're phrasing it in terms of doing you harm.

From my view, I don't give a damn if Varg is trying to do me harm personally. I have a high bar for boycotting something - but he's an unrepentant arsonist and murderer who is actively trying to spread racist crap in his RPG. Even if I was white and he considered me genetically worthy, I still wouldn't give him money.