I got the idea for this from BSJ when he suggested treating units as swarms.

These rules are independent from my general rules for determining the outcome of a major battle, which I put in the other thread. These rules are for large groups of people fighting, perhaps supported by players.

I'd love some input.

   
Units fight as a single creature. They have a strike bonus, armor class, hit points and deal damage as a single creature. The basic attributes of the unit are based on the attributes of the basic creature in the unit, modified by the level of training of its weakest members.

   Units that fight together, flee together. The unit’s training and level of resolve determine its base number of hit points. Like a swarm of rats, when the unit’s hit points are depleted, the unit breaks apart and the surviving members flee in the safest available direction.

Hit Points

   To determine the number of hit points the unit has, multiply the hit points of a single common member by the number of people in the unit. Then take a percentage of that number based on the unit’s motivation and training.

Base Amount
Untrained      10%
Green Troops      15%
Professional Soldiers   20%
Elite Soldiers      40%

Modifier
Low Morale      -5%
High Morale      +5%
Defending Home   +5%
Religious Conviction   +5%

Example
100 Professional Spearmen with Low Morale, 10 HP each = 100 * 10 * (.20 - .05) = 150. When this unit suffers 150 points of damage, it will rout.

Strike Bonus

The unit has a strike bonus equal to the common member’s. It remains otherwise unmodified.

Damage

   The unit deals damage equal to a single common strike, multiplied by an amount based on the side of the group. For every 20 members the group has, rounded up, increase the multiplier by 1.

Armor Class, Combat Maneuver Bonus, Combat Maneuver Defense

The unit’s armor class, CMB, and CMD are equal to the common member’s scores.

Example

100 Professional Spearmen
Low Morale
HP       150
AC       15      (Chain Shirt, Dex +1)
Strike Bonus    +3
Damage    (1d8+3) * 5

[/B]

   It isn’t necessary to roll dice each round for combat. Let’s take two hypothetical units and pit them against each other using average damage.

100 Professional Spearmen

Low Morale
HP       150
AC       15      (Chain Shirt, Dex +1)
Strike Bonus    +3
Damage    (1d8+3) * 5 (round down)

60 Commoners

Religious Conviction, Defending Home, High Morale
HP       90
AC      10
Strike Bonus   +0
Damage   1d6*3

   The professional spearmen will hit on a 7, meaning they have a 70% chance to hit. Their average damage per hit is 7*5 = 35. It is easier to state that the spearmen will deal 70% of 35 damage each round to the commoners (24 points). This means the commoners will be routed after three rounds of fighting. During those three rounds, the commoners will have inflicted about 9 points of damage on the spearmen.

[/B]

   A unit that has been routed will suffer 20% casualties instantly, +20% more every round that it is forced to continue fighting. They will deal damage to their enemies, but only half of normal.

   A unit’s commander can attempt to rally a failing unit by making a DC 20 Diplomacy check. If the check is successful, it reforms, though smaller in size. Any round that the commander attempts to rally his troops, but fails, causes his men to flounder rather than run, suffering casualties. An attempt to rally can be made every round, though each failed attempt increases the DC by 5.

[/B]
   
An especially heroic individual can join a unit and fight alongside it against other units or mobs.

Damage he deals, even if technically against a single person, depletes the hit points of the unit as it is very demoralizing.

If the hero is fighting in melee from the front, he suffers a “single” attack which deals double damage on a successful hit.

If the GM is rolling attack and damage for each unit, the hero suffers a single strike’s damage each time the unit takes damage.

[/B]

If the commander on one unit notices the hero in another unit, he can come forward and fight. Both combatants still take damage when their units take damage. They also suffer an attack from the other unit directly, though this attack only deals normal damage.

If either the commander or the hero retreats or dies, his unit automatically routs.

[/B]

Each round a commander spends leading rather than fighting, he can perform one of the following actions.

Command to Charge
The unit gains a +2 to strike but suffers a -2 to AC. If the unit pushes on the same attack, it gains a +2 bonus to its CMB check. The unit must have at least 10 feet in order to charge.

Command to Push
Either as a separate action or as part of a charge, the commander can order a push. The unit makes a combat maneuver check. If successful, the other unit is shoved back, losing its next action and suffering a -2 to its armor class.

Inspire
This action can only be taken a number of times equal to the commander’s Charisma modifier. It requires a DC 20 Diplomacy check. Success restores 5% of lost HP.

Command Fall Back
The unit retreats from 5 to 30 feet. It loses its attack but gains a +4 to its AC.

Command to Turtle
This command is given to a unit with shields when under attack by archers. The unit may not attack and its movement is reduced to 50%. It gains a +8 AC bonus.


Units can be very small, containing as few as six people. Of course, 20 percent of the health of just six people is a very small number, meaning they can be routed by very little resistance. Thus, a small unit, also called a mob, is much less dangerous than a group of highly motivated individuals.

Units can make their attacks against individuals. The unit must contain at least 6 people for each person it targets. Each target will suffer a single attack which deals double an individual strike’s damage if it hits.

Well glad to be of service

Looks pretty good, I think. Giving your swarms an attack is a change from the usual swarm rules where a swarm just deals autodamage to people in its space - though I think that's fair enough.

Looking at the spearmen example - would they get any benefit from the reach of the weapon, or not? By RAW swarms don't make Attacks of Opportunity but I'm not sure if this is intended to be because they're composed of Tiny or smaller creatures which wouldn't normally get AoOs anyway...I'd probably let spearmen get an AoO if they are melee'd by another group, representing a ton of individual AoOs.

Not sure if I'd make the leader spend their own turn commanding since I can easily imagine a commander bellowing orders as they hack away. A unit might need a commander to do anything other than blindly attack, though. Also, you could just treat Fall Back as a normal [move + total defense].
For the Push Back manuever, you may need to modify the CMB number based on the swarm's total size (so that a small force can't as easily push back a larger force).

OK hope this helps...
Cheers,
BSJ.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;444924Well glad to be of service

Looks pretty good, I think. Giving your swarms an attack is a change from the usual swarm rules where a swarm just deals autodamage to people in its space - though I think that's fair enough.

Looking at the spearmen example - would they get any benefit from the reach of the weapon, or not? By RAW swarms don't make Attacks of Opportunity but I'm not sure if this is intended to be because they're composed of Tiny or smaller creatures which wouldn't normally get AoOs anyway...I'd probably let spearmen get an AoO if they are melee'd by another group, representing a ton of individual AoOs.

Not sure if I'd make the leader spend their own turn commanding since I can easily imagine a commander bellowing orders as they hack away. A unit might need a commander to do anything other than blindly attack, though. Also, you could just treat Fall Back as a normal [move + total defense].
For the Push Back manuever, you may need to modify the CMB number based on the swarm's total size (so that a small force can't as easily push back a larger force).

OK hope this helps...
Cheers,
BSJ.

BUT THE 300 PUSHED BACK A MILLION MEN!!!

Seriously though, good points. I imagine the commander commanding, but if this helps, the commander is what makes the unit work. His cutting is figured into the regular attack unless he takes on the hero role and gets up front.

Basically, I imagine an armed unit like the hundred spear men would probably have a dozen of so guys with levels (10 2nd level and 1 3rd level, in my opinion), but that normal spread is what makes the group the group, with its high percentage of HP and all that.

I guess there should be a penalty for person swarms without leadership or levels - which is what they are mostly dealing with in my next session.

I did want to include some rules for automatic damage - basically just for convenience, but I didn't want the normal system to have static damage because I want the armor class of the group to matter. Having an attack roll or adjusting the automatic per round damage based on the to hit number is the only way to do that.

So yeah, I'd give them AoOs. If some wizard gets within 10 feet of a group of spear men and fails to cast defensively, he is getting eaten up. Also, if the spearmen were attacked by short sword guys, they would need that first round of swings.

A part of my idea is that 6 guys fighting as a mob is a lot less dangerous than 6 individuals working together, if you can make that distinction.

You can always run six spearmen as six separate guys. If you think that they aren't put together that well for it, that they aren't cut throat or motivated enough, you can run them as a mob.

The other rule I was thinking of is treating all groups 4 levels lower than yourself as a mob, thereby giving higher level characters almost Dynasty Warriors level power on the battlefield.

These rules need some work to become coherent. I can figure out how to run them on a case by case basis, but all the different situations and sizes require tweaks.

OK that all seems to make sense.  I'd agree you would want to make unit armour matter, so need to keep the attack roll. (The automatic damage might work in a system with armour as DR -  not that this helps you any...).

Another thought though...if you're handling all big groups of lower level enemies as swarms, they may get less challenging since you have less opportunities to roll some 20s and whack the PCs. Or, it may just be more unpredictable since the damage increases and is all off a single roll.

You might need some rules for abstracting the effects of feats like Cleave/Great Cleave...perhaps just give the character an automatic extra attack ?

I don't know if I do need to abstract that. I like the idea of the cleaving character getting the best of both worlds.

So he attacks the swarm with cleave, hits and probably kills one guy (not that it matters if he killed a swarm member or not) then cleaves into the next guy dealing more damage. Both sets of damage would come off the unit's total HP.

"It was terrifying. The barbarian made great room about himself."

These rules already greatly give the advantage to high level single characters. I don't know that it matters how far you take that if you don't mind doing so.

Its abstract in that if you just have the swarm's total HP you don't know if he'll drop a guy, if that makes sense..

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;444967Its abstract in that if you just have the swarm's total HP you don't know if he'll drop a guy, if that makes sense..

Right - I mean, in the game, you can flesh out the scene however you want. The guy drops, the guy moves back, the guy is a beast and keeps fighting. When it comes down to it, the swarm's HP is just morale.

Now, here is one I've been thinking more about - what about lightning bolt and fireball. If a wizard hauls off with a 15 damage lightning bolt that blasts 10 or 12 guys, that's over 150 damage. Plenty enough to blow apart a 100 man team and put them in a rout. Normally a swarm should only take the 15 damage once but against a unit, it is a little different.

Not that I have a problem with that. A lightning bolt should be horrifying to a group of low level men.

On the lightning bolt/fireball - the standard swarm rule would be that the swarm takes what would be normal damage for one target, +50% damage to include the effect of it really hitting multiple targets at once?

I'd just use that, rather than trying to calculate how many targets it hits and then multiplying the damage out, if that's what you're trying to do?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Swarm_Subtype

If each swarm member is contributing 10% of their hit points in your rules, then an area effect like fireball doing +50% normal is equivalent to it affecting about 15 targets within its area.

I guess you could justify that by saying that the spells don't have unlimited power... each guy in the line provides some cover for the last.

Do you like how the heroic rules work?

Well, maybe the swarm rules do short change fireballs etc. a bit. Will this cause your wizard player's to have fits or will it be OK may be the question? - its difficult to use the 'its in the book, dammit' defense with rules you wrote yourself though you can point to the swarm rules.

On the heroic rules...I do like the bit where an enemy commander or hero notices a hero and appears to duel them. Sort of reminds me of the scene in Highlander where Connor MacLeod first sees the Kurgan amidst the highlands battle.

Giving the hero full damage vs. the unit may be OK - might be assumed to be including damage from extra attacks like AoOs and the like as well as morale? (Since people will probably be shifting around in the battle all the time).

How do I determine if the hero is 'in battle from the front' vs. 'taking damage as part of the unit'? One seems like a player-decided descriptive thing and the other is more how the GM wants to handle it?

I'm honestly not too put off by the idea of wizards blasting enemy units to smithereens. For one, the wizard on the other side can always dispel it.

I've often thought that characters using shields for cover should be able to take less damage from area of effect attacks. Perhaps Spell Craft should be a command skill, and on a successful roll, the commander can tell his unit to cover. Doing so reduces the damage from x10 to x1.5. Wizards only get to do it a couple times a day anyway.

As far as determining if the commander is fighting in the front, it is a total player decision. It is very advantageous for your unit as it adds all that extra damage every time the leader hits, but it can be bad if he somehow dies.

I'm also adding a command roll. A friend of mine talked me into it. It will be an intelligence skill roll: Knowledge Warfare. For every 10% more troops you are leading, you get a +1 to the roll. For every 5 you beat the other guy by, you get a +1 to strike for your side for the whole engagement. If you win by 20+, you get to fully flank the enemy, cutting their HP and Damage in half.

True, if its a big combat there could be another wizard on the other side counterspelling while the warriors beat each other to a pulp. That's pretty true to fiction.

On shields: by the book tower shields can provide cover, giving a Reflex save bonus and also evasion (though it costs your action). I wouldn't extend that to regular shields in normal combat but maybe multiple characters with shields might lock them together to form a shield-wall 300 style and get cover.

The knowledge (strategy) roll sounds reasonable. I suppose add a bonus to the roll if the player can come up with a clever plan, and perhaps modifiers for terrain and so on.

Yeah, I'd really like to have some special terrain rules.

I'm inclined to let pretty much all shields in my game do the cover effect for the unit. I'm running a game set in Greece / Persia, and the regular shields for both sides were pretty damn big. Some Persians had a slightly smaller shield with the moon shape cut, but they are just as likely to have shield bearers in the front with big ass tower shields.

[/B]
   
Units fight as a single creature. They have a strike bonus, armor class, hit points and deal damage as a single creature. The basic attributes of the unit are based on the attributes of the average creature in the unit, modified by the level of training of its weakest members.

   Units that fight together, flee together. The unit's training and level of resolve determine its base number of hit points. Like a swarm of rats, when the unit's hit points are depleted, the unit breaks apart and the surviving members flee in the safest available direction.

Hit Points

   To determine the number of hit points the unit has, multiply the hit points of a single common member by the number of people in the unit. Then take a percentage of that number based on the unit's motivation and training.

Base Amount
Untrained      10%
Green Troops      15%
Professional Soldiers   20%
Elite Soldiers      40%

Modifier
Low Morale      -5%
High Morale      +5%
Defending Home   +5%
Religious Conviction   +5%
Resigned to Die      +5%

Example
100 Professional Spearmen with Low Morale, 10 HP each = 100 * 10 * (.20 - .05) = 150. When this unit suffers 150 points of damage, it will rout.

Strike Bonus

The unit has a strike bonus equal to the common member's. It remains otherwise unmodified.

Damage

   The unit deals damage equal to a single common strike, multiplied by an amount based on the side of the group. For every 20 members the group has, rounded up, increase the multiplier by 1.


Armor Class, Combat Maneuver Bonus, Combat Maneuver Defense

The unit's armor class, CMB, and CMD are equal to the common member's scores.

Example

100 Professional Spearmen
Low Morale
HP       150
AC       15      (Chain Shirt, Dex +1)
Strike Bonus    +3
Damage    (1d8+3) x 5


   It isn't necessary to roll dice each round for combat. Let's take two hypothetical units and pit them against each other using average damage.

100 Professional Spearmen

Low Morale
HP       150
AC       15      (Chain Shirt, Dex +1)
Strike Bonus    +3
Damage    (1d8+3) x 5 (round down)

60 Commoners

Religious Conviction, Defending Home, High Morale
HP       90
AC      10
Strike Bonus   +0
Damage   1d6*3

   The professional spearmen will hit on a 7, meaning they have a 70% chance to hit. Their average damage per hit is 7*5 = 35. It is easier to state that the spearmen will deal 70% of 35 damage each round to the commoners (24 points). This means the commoners will be routed after three rounds of fighting. During those three rounds, the commoners will have inflicted about 9 points of damage on the spearmen.


   A unit that has been routed will suffer 20% casualties instantly, +20% more every round that it is forced to continue fighting. They will deal damage to their enemies, but only half of normal.

   A unit's commander can attempt to rally a failing unit by making a DC 20 Diplomacy check. If the check is successful, it reforms, though smaller in size. Any round that the commander attempts to rally his troops, but fails, causes his men to flounder rather than run, suffering casualties. An attempt to rally can be made every round, though each failed attempt increases the DC by 5.

[/B]
   
   The commander of a unit or a special hero of at least 5th level can fight alongside a unit but resolve his actions separately. While dangerous, doing so provides a massive advantage for the unit as a whole.

   While a unit has a commander fighting in the front or a special hero leading the way, it gains a +1 morale bonus to strike and damage, and a +4 saving throw vs. compulsion and fear effects.

   Heroic Damage

   Each round, the hero may make normal attacks against the enemy unit. Damage comes off the unit's total hit points. Even if a single attack deals more damage than an individual can take, all of it contributes to reducing the units HP because of its demoralizing factor.

   While the hero is dealing damage to the unit as a whole, he can make attacks as if he is attacking individuals. For example, he can use cleave to deal damage to the unit twice.

Danger to the Hero

Each round, the hero or commander that is fighting in the front suffers an attack from the unit directly. If it hits, it deals double damage (rather than x5 or x10). In addition, each time his unit suffers damage, the hero suffers a single hits worth of damage.


If two heroes or commanders come to the front, they can engage one another directly. If one of them retreats from the fight by moving back into his unit, the unit immediately suffers a full set of damage. If the hero dies, the unit must make a DC 15 willpower saving throw or rout. If it passes the saving throw, it regains 20% of its lost HP.

While fighting in a duel, the heroes still suffer damage whenever their units take damage. Direct attacks from the unit against the heroes cease.

If a hero has been fighting in the front and suffered damage when the other side's commander comes to face him, he can spend one use of his inspire ability to restore his entire lost HP, so long as he is uninjured (has more than his first level HP remaining). It is therefore smart for a commander to be brave and immediately battle the hero in the opposing unit, if he plans to at all.
[/B]

A unit that is targeted with an AOE such as lightning bolt or fireball suffers the spells damage multiplied by 10 unless the unit's commander noticed the attack and gives the order to cover.

   
   When two units first meet one another in battle, their commanders must make contested "Knowledge Warfare" rolls. The commander with the most men gains a +1 bonus for every 10% his side outnumbers the enemy unless he is somehow restricted. For every 5 points one commander beats the other by, his men gain a +1 to strike. If he succeeds by 20 or more, his troops are considered to be flanking. In this context, the flanked unit fights as if it were one half its actual size.

[/B]

Each round a commander spends leading rather than fighting, he can perform one of the following actions.

Command to Charge
The unit gains a +2 to strike but suffers a -2 to AC. If the unit pushes on the same attack, it gains a +2 bonus to its CMB check. The unit must have at least 10 feet in order to charge.

Command to Push
Either as a separate action or as part of a charge, the commander can order a push. The unit makes a combat maneuver check. If successful, the other unit is shoved back, losing its next action and suffering a -2 to its armor class.

Inspire
This action can only be taken a number of times equal to the commander's Charisma modifier. It requires a DC 20 Diplomacy check. Success restores 5% of lost HP.

Focused Assault
This action counts as a use of the commander's Inspire ability. When this action is taken, the commander makes a contested command roll against the enemy commander. If he wins, he is able to break some of his troops through the enemy unit's line, gaining a +4 bonus to strike for 1d4 rounds. If the roll fails, his side loses 5% of its HP.

Command Fall Back
The unit retreats from 5 to 30 feet. It loses its attack but gains a +4 to its AC.

Command to Turtle
This command is given to a unit with shields when under attack by archers or wizards. The unit loses its next attack and its movement is reduced to 50%. Until its next action, the unit gains a +8 AC bonus. If the unit was targeted by an AOE spell, it suffers x1.5 damage instead of x10.

Note that commanders will usually have spell craft. A successful check will allow them to instantly give the command to cover, reducing the unit shattering damage.

[/B]

Units can be very small, containing as few as six people. Of course, 20 percent of the health of just six people is a very small number, meaning they can be routed by very little resistance. Thus, a small unit, also called a mob, is much less dangerous than a group of highly motivated individuals.

Units can make their attacks against individuals. The unit must contain at least 6 people for each person it targets. Each target will suffer a single attack which deals double an individual strike's damage if it hits.

[/B]

At the start of a battle, the sort of terrain available is randomly determined by a 1d6 roll. Each commander makes a Knowledge Warfare check, suffering a -1 penalty for every 10% his troops outnumber the enemy. The winner of the check gains the advantage of the terrain.

If a commander fails this roll by 10 or more, he will believe that he holds the advantage.

Accessible Ground

The winner of this terrain gains access to a raised and sunny location. Should the battle ensue here, this terrain provides the commander with a +2 on all future command and knowledge rolls. His charisma bonus is considered 1 higher during this battle.

Entangling Ground

The edge of the battle field provides a wonderful set of natural barriers such as a river or rocky outcroppings. If one side is driven from the battlefield, its forces will always be considered flanked when they return. This terrain provides no advantage to either army during the battle.

Temporizing Ground

Both sides begin with the high ground, facing down into a valley. Whichever unit decides to attack loses the higher ground advantage. The winner of this terrain can choose to attack the enemy and attempt to draw them back to their side. If the decision to attack is given, the commanders must make a contested roll. If the attacker wins, he gains the high ground. Winning the high ground grants the bonus for Precipitous Heights.

Narrow Pass

The commander that loses this terrain to his enemy never gains a bonus for having a greater number of troops. When making the opening command roll to determine advantage at the start of the battle, only the commander with control of the pass can gain a bonus for winning.

Precipitous Heights

The unit that controls this terrain gains a +1 on all attack and damage rolls. Archers are considered one range increment closer to the enemy than they are.

Dispersive Terrain

The unit that loses control of this terrain is considered flanked when they enter it. The unit is treated as being half its actual size.