TheRPGSite

So, for publishers, do you feel the appeal of PDFs is growing?

If so, do you think they are currently a viable component of an overall strategy to release?

To customers, are PDFs something you consider buying?

Do your friends buy them?

Are e-books appealing at all or is it in-print or die?

To everyone, with print prices growing and in-print sales shrinking some see it as the end of days for an organized RPG industry. Do you see PDFs as the future of the RPG industry or is it just a fad?

Bill (more curious than tired :) )

As a customer my personal preference has become PDF, unless I happen to really like the art. Then likely PDF and print. But the print part isn't really for playing, so that's not really gaming related.

The why is I like working in the electronic form. Searchable and copy-paste of specific entries rocks. Plus I have a decent colour laser printer, as part of the family small business, to knock off a printout that I feel comfortable banging around and that folds flat as I need it to. With a plastic coil binding it even folds right back on itself so I have an open book in a form that is the size of the book closed. Together these make it suitable for both the game table and a little 'throneroom' reading.

I've bought far much more on PDF than print recently.

Reasons

a) cost - PDF's are cheaper.
b) availability - no local game shop (all 3 have closed down), so I need to drive an hour or so to get to my nearest one, pay about £5+ for parking/tunnel fees, which adds to the cost. Then the shop often won't have what I'm after anyway.
c) I can browse titles on the internet, often PDF have demo's available, with my nearest games shop being so far and expensive to even visit, I just can't browse hardcopy anymore.
d) utility - I've recently bought PDF's of titles I already own in hardcopy just so I can copy and paste sections for player notes.

An example of a recent purchase I bought "Path of Tears sourcebook" for Traveller:TNE, I already own the hardcopy. But I've used the PDF to copy and paste to make a Traveller Wiki to use as a player resource, it cost me less than a £5 to buy it, it would cost me more than that to just visit my nearest game shop.

I'm far more willing to buy PDFs than I am to buy hardcopies of RPGs.

It takes something special to get me to buy a deadtree RPG but if I have money in my paypal account I can much more easily be convinced to part with it.

Actually, I think a case could possibly be made for all RPG publishers using paypal simply because there is a tendency to see paypal money as not being real or being reserved for fun stuff.

I like PDFs. They are cheap, don't use space unless you decide to print them, you can choose the binding you like (I prefer softcovers, with spiral bindings that aloww me to fully open the book without cracks), and even better, you can choose to print only the pages you need.

I like the searchability of pdfs, you can find everything associated with a keyword if you need info on it and go right to it. You can either print it, cut and paste it into a document or just read it. The only drawback is you're limited as to where you can read the material. You can't carry it with you and if you can it's a pain (laptops are heavier than books, get hot etc.).

As a publisher, my primary distribution is through pdfs, though that is changing with Cold Space being released to distro. I think that they are part of an overall publishing strategy which bypasses the troublesome distribution methods traditionally used, and which will be necessary when the whole thing falls apart like a chunk of rotted wood.

As a customer, I prefer them for game prepping, but I still print them out for full-on reading - then again I have a color laser printer, which most gamers don't. For actually running a game, I prefer books if they have a good index, but if they don't, searchable pdfs are better.

-clash

I know a lot of smaller publishers depend on pdf sales and couldn't survive in a print-only environment, but I don't like them, for the reasons most often heard, namely that I would rather be able to hold a book in my hands and curl up on the couch with it rather than have to sit at the computer staring at the screen (no, I don't have a laptop, too expensive). Plus staring at the screen for hours trying to read a book is hard on the eyes (although to be fair I don't seem to have any problem hanging out on message boards for hours).

One reason that I haven't heard mentioned much is that with a print book, if I buy it and hate it, I can throw it up on ebay and make some of my money back.  Can't do that with a pdf.

Quote from: TechnomancerI know a lot of smaller publishers depend on pdf sales and couldn't survive in a print-only environment, but I don't like them, for the reasons most often heard, namely that I would rather be able to hold a book in my hands and curl up on the couch with it rather than have to sit at the computer staring at the screen (no, I don't have a laptop, too expensive). Plus staring at the screen for hours trying to read a book is hard on the eyes (although to be fair I don't seem to have any problem hanging out on message boards for hours).

One reason that I haven't heard mentioned much is that with a print book, if I buy it and hate it, I can throw it up on ebay and make some of my money back.  Can't do that with a pdf.

That's why I - and most other Small Press publishers - offer Print On Demand books for anything large enough to be viable.

-clash

I can't say whether PDFs are the "way of the future" in the sense that they'll always be around.  My suspicion is that they'll only become more and more important as society continues to become more and more electronic (well, either PDFs will or whatever happens to be their successor format).

But they certainly are the "way of the present".

And like I said elsewhere, if you are anyone other than one of the really big publishers, you'd be a fool NOT to have pdfs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: TechnomancerI know a lot of smaller publishers depend on pdf sales and couldn't survive in a print-only environment, but I don't like them, for the reasons most often heard, namely that I would rather be able to hold a book in my hands and curl up on the couch with it rather than have to sit at the computer staring at the screen (no, I don't have a laptop, too expensive). Plus staring at the screen for hours trying to read a book is hard on the eyes (although to be fair I don't seem to have any problem hanging out on message boards for hours).

I hear you. I like small PDFs because you can look them over on-screen and it doesn't take a toll on your eyes. But larger ones MUST be printed for me to enjoy them. That's why we offer our PDFinPrint service - we print, bind, and ship most of our PDFs (except for the titles also in print or the ones that don't make sense as a printed item), and we try to do it as cheaply as possible with several options. Plus it helps to have the equipment needed to do this, so I can enjoy PDFs more when I print them with such quality.

As to the original question, yes, the PDF demand is growing, and we do more business with PDFs than print.

I'll tell you one area in which I find my consumption of gaming pdfs going up--sourcebooks.  Rather than buy a print copy of a sourcebook I'm going to use maybe 16 pages out of, I'd rather have a pdf and print out the applicable new classes/equipment/spells for my players.  I still want that main rulebook in print, if it turns out to be something I'll get heavy use out of, though.

I buy PDFs and find them very practical, ESPECIALLY if the product in question exists in both PDF and print format. I collect enough books but only end up using a fraction of them. So, PDF gives me a cheaper route to try books.

I do think that print format has added value, so anything that I use a lot I like to get in print format. I also am reluctant to purchase any PDF for more than half the print value.

What I'd REALLY like to see is more publishers bundling PDF and print for cheaper or (like RPG objects) offering a print upgrade price. Having PDF is beneficial even if I have print, because it gives me portability and allows me to prepare games using the electronic verison.

Quote from: TechnomancerOne reason that I haven't heard mentioned much is that with a print book, if I buy it and hate it, I can throw it up on ebay and make some of my money back.  Can't do that with a pdf.

Unless it happens to have become some rare print that I don't want but a bunch of other people do, I've already got back a sizable portion of the money I'm likely to recover from resale.  See I live in Canada, and it's some kind of expensive pain to have books sent to me direct across the border.  If I'm buying print it's from the FLGS. Otherwise I'd be tacking on another 30% on the print book price rather than the roughly 30% discount you get on PDF.

So I might have already gotten it at half price. Although I do have a kick ass FLGS that's quite local. So the extra costs are more related to gas to drive there, which isn't that far.


P.S. *climbs up on soapbox* I will add that I avoid places that use watermarks and DRM. Watermarks I find a bit irksome and even freaky to have my name there, but the real issue is that with them normally comes the inability to have a marked up electronic format of the document. The worst is straight on DRM as the very nature of that bit of software tends towards it blocking from reading the document, even when I should be allowed. :(

There are 3 or 4 places to buy SR PDFs from. I buy exclusively from Battlecorps for the sole reason that they sell virgin PDFs. Want my PDF business? Then trust me with that $15 document. DRM and watermarks cost you sales on top of costing overhead to implement. Just like software copyprotection costs software publishers sales. And that extra 'protection' is barely going to slow down the haxxorz if they are so inclined to theft.

I like having a print book for reading, but I also like PDFs for searchability and selective printing.

If I really like the core book I will buy both print adn PDF versions. For supplements I like short PDFs like Flying Mice publishes so I can buy the bits and pieces that I like or will get use out of. I will not by large supplements in PDF form.

Quote from: blakkieP.S. *climbs up on soapbox* I will add that I avoid places that use watermarks and DRM. Watermarks I find a bit irksome and even freaky to have my name there, but the real issue is that with them normally comes the inability to have a marked up electronic format of the document.

What do you mean by marked up electronic format? I've not seen any differences with the watermarked ones I've bought other than my name in the corner.

Yeah, I hate DRM as much as the next person but given the current paranoia from IP owners, having to put up with your name in the corner is well worth the price of not having to deal with DRM.

For me it is print or no thanks.   I enjoy having a print book to read and take with me wherever I go.

   Not to mention that when you purchase a .pdf book it is not "game ready", I still have to print it out to be able to use it at my game table.

    I will stick with print.

I'm not sure why, but buying things off the internet scares me off. Freebies are fine by me, though.

That said, I've got something like a 99.999999999999999999% reading comprehension... and can memorize most books after the third read. Comes from all that "Bible memory" crap from elementary school. At least I got something out of it.

Can't do the same for PDFs though. They're a lot less skimmable, which puts a damper on the whole "start with whatever catches your eye" bit.

Credit card fruad is more likely to come from having your card cloned in a restaurant or petrol station that it is from shopping on the internet. Personally I wouldn't be buying any roleplaying or gaming stuff if I didn't internet shop, the savings in travel and parking alone are enough to make it worth it to buy from an internet retailer than it is the local shops.

Another thing about PDFs is that, because you aren't going to be killing trees, you don't feel the need to cut things.  Looking at the manuscript for Havens I can see at least 10 pages that don't absolutely need to be in there (rules for the effects of enviromental pollutants, some of the rarer diseases, the short chapter on post-Rising homosexuality) and would be the first things to go if I had to fit within a word count

It just wouldn't be the same without the llama

Quote from: BagpussCredit card fruad is more likely to come from having your card cloned in a restaurant or petrol station that it is from shopping on the internet.

Yeah... I don't do credit cards either.

Quote from: beejazzYeah... I don't do credit cards either.

Well if you are determined to live by the barter system you will find it hard to trade your chickens for PDF's over the internet. :D

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonAnother thing about PDFs is that, because you aren't going to be killing trees, you don't feel the need to cut things.

That's a double edge sword.  I've seen some PDF only products that had stuff that seemed to be in there for padding.  The process of editing for length and deciding what's important can force writers to crystalize their thoughts and create an easier to read product instead of a meandering one.

Quote from: BagpussWhat do you mean by marked up electronic format? I've not seen any differences with the watermarked ones I've bought other than my name in the corner.

I guess you don't have Adobe Professional. :)  Raw PDFs are normally editable. For example you can touch up the Bookmarks. When a watermark is added usually the PDF usually gets locked up so you can't alter it without m4d ha@zz0rz.

Quote from: BagpussWell if you are determined to live by the barter system you will find it hard to trade your chickens for PDF's over the internet. :D

Nah, nah... it has more to do with the whole money laund- I mean, yeah, I'm a hippie who only does cash 'cause anything else ain't /natural/.

Quote from: blakkieRaw PDFs are normally editable.

Well the ones from RPGNow I've bought rarely have been. Locking the PDF is just something the author can choose to do.

Quote from: BagpussWell the ones from RPGNow I've bought rarely have been. Locking the PDF is just something the author can choose to do.

Yes, well I wish anyone doing it would stop. :P  I wish it even more than cleaner, better optimized PDFs.  Because if they'd leave it open at least if I'd be able to I can stomp all those bazillion lagass layers together, or get rid of that 50% of nothing in the poorly authored files.

Or have some better, IMO of course, Bookmarks. Because I realise not everyone is going to like the same set of bookmarks, but let me change them and it's all good.

PDFs are too ephemeral for me. I'd much rather purchase material in printed format. The one exception is for archival preservation of extremely rare materials--texts that are simply never going to be available again, or are too rare to obtain in any other fashion.

I have dozens of PDFs, so I'm not tyrannical about it. But given a choice between a PDF and a nice binding of current work, I'll choose the bound version every time.

I like books. I like shelves of books. Shelves and shelves and shelves of books.

I find it nearly impossible to replicate the ease of use of an actual bookmark in electronic form, and reading upright seated in front of the vertically oriented computer screen isn't very comfortable for long periods.

I particularly like being able to reference disparate paragraphs across multiple volumes merely by laying them open in stacks on my desk, an activity which drives me insane attempting with multiple PDFs--the physicality of position makes it easier to cross-correlate information from several sources.

Quote from: blakkieYes, well I wish anyone doing it would stop. :P  I wish it even more than cleaner, better optimized PDFs.  Because if they'd leave it open at least if I'd be able to I can stomp all those bazillion lagass layers together, or get rid of that 50% of nothing in the poorly authored files.

Or have some better, IMO of course, Bookmarks. Because I realise not everyone is going to like the same set of bookmarks, but let me change them and it's all good.

I've noticed some small B&W pdfs with enormous file sized, larger than my StarCluster 2 with its 288 pages and color illos. Is this a function of bad software or inexperience with settings?

BTW, I never lock my files. The watermarked versions on DTRPG are not locked by me.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceI've noticed some small B&W pdfs with enormous file sized, larger than my StarCluster 2 with its 288 pages and color illos. Is this a function of bad software or inexperience with settings?

Both, although 'bad' software is often more just software tools that don't work together all that well for what is being attempted. Or need special techniques together work well....which I guess boils down to inexperience. BTW I'm NOT the person to do this, I'm mostly armchairing here. But this is based on info from pros I know that are very, very good at this sort of thing.

There is a third thing too. Doing it right takes time, work, attention to detail, and occationally persistance of trial and error. Doing it wrong by saying "screw it, they can mostly read this sucker, it's Miller-time" is often easier.

P.S.  Rule of thumb; if you ZIP the PDF and it compresses down down in any significant way it be shat.

For me, whether I purchase a PDF or not is oftentimes a matter of price. I get annoyed when publishers expect me to pay the same price for a PDF that I would for a printed book. Otherwise, I enjoy them and will happily purchase a game that I'm interested in in the PDF format.
Great White Games, I'm looking at you.

I'm not a big fan of the PDF format.  Here's why.

- It sucks ass for reading on screen.  Having to constantly grab and slide the page around is annoying, and to be honest HTML would do the job much better.
- I like books.  I consider having a new gaming book to read to be one of life's pleasures, and having a new computer file to read just isn't the same.
- Cost.  As noted above, I'm going to want to print it.  Cost has to be kept down because I'm absorbing the cost for the printing.  If cost of PDF + cost of having it printed is less than a comprable professionally printed book then I'd buy one.  Most are not, especially larger ones.
- Size.  One temptation as Hastur pointed out is that publishers don't feel the need to cut things.  But that increases my cost at the consumer end to have the thing printed.  I'm much more likely to buy a $5 64 page suppliment than I am a $20 300 page suppliment.  The former I can actually afford to get printed, and therefore use.
- DRM.  Watermarking is great, but companies *still* lock down the PDFs.  It's really annoying to have to hunt down something to crack it because the publisher first didn't include bookmarks then locked the file so I can't use them myself.

Overall, I don't buy a lot of PDFs.  I've heard the Print on Demand services are nice, maybe I'll look into that.

Quote from: mattormegFor me, whether I purchase a PDF or not is oftentimes a matter of price. I get annoyed when publishers expect me to pay the same price for a PDF that I would for a printed book. Otherwise, I enjoy them and will happily purchase a game that I'm interested in in the PDF format.
Great White Games, I'm looking at you.

Just so you know, the thought process I go through when pricing my pdfs has to do with three things.
1: market price - is it comparable in price to other products like it?

2: ROI: usually relating to print price, the investment in art, writing, editing and overall production.

3: Print price: I usually get around 33% on the print version when it goes through distro. I want to make at least this much (or near to it) with the PDF.

Just an FYI
Bill

I think part of the usefulness depends on how comfortable you are reading electronic displays - if it bugs out your eyes or whatever.  If you feel the need to print out the whole thing (and you can't manage to do it free at work), then your cost goes up enough that it's not worth it unless you have limited access to print books.

I never print more than the odd page of pdfs so the print cost is negligible.

Quote from: HinterWelt3: Print price: I usually get around 33% on the print version when it goes through distro. I want to make at least this much (or near to it) with the PDF.

If you don't mind me asking, what's your rough distribution overhead with PDF? I always assumed [EDIT:you'd take home] in the range of 50ish-60ish%, depending on setup maybe higher than that. Of course that'll vary as a overall percentage per product because of the extra effort in prepping the PDF for the masses.  Even if you do it yourself I don't expect you to count that labour as 'free'. ;)  Start looking at it that way and it understandably it tends to turn into one of the "Miller-time" senarios. Because people gotta eat, and working for free tends to not support one's food habit.

Quote from: NicephorusI think part of the usefulness depends on how comfortable you are reading electronic displays - if it bugs out your eyes or whatever.  If you feel the need to print out the whole thing (and you can't manage to do it free at work), then your cost goes up enough that it's not worth it unless you have limited access to print books.

That's a big part of it.

Madman, I think papa needs to get a new monitor. Or new eyes. :mischief:  I usually have a full page up at a time, because yes scrolling the page to read to the bottom bites.  Especially on a two column layout where you have to then scroll back to the top to of the page to start the second column.

Of course I happen to be blessed with eyes that have the right focal length for monitor reading. I'm late 30's with thousands upon thousands of hours (I'll hazard a guess of 40,000 hours) over 2 and half decades of reading monitors, some damn crappy ones for a lot of that, and I'm still getting by nicely on factory issued eyeballs alone.

It's not so much that I can't read on a monitor.  I don't *like* reading on a monitor.

Quote from: MaddmanIt's not so much that I can't read on a monitor.  I don't *like* reading on a monitor.

I just saw this part:

Quote...Having to constantly grab and slide the page around is annoying...

...and though "oh boy, would that it ever suck if I tried to read several pages or a whole book like that".  I assumed you weren't reading it full page because it was illegible to you at that zoom level.  You do have a mouse with a wheel to change pages while at full screen? I now consider that pretty much a requirement too.

EDIT: I do get you like the esthetics of paper in whatever favourite reading environment you've gotten acustomed to. I've got those places too, it's just that I feel a lot more comfortable in those particular places with a paper format I consider disposable.  On the flipside if I'm 'reading' more for the pictures I do appreciate the quality of a good proper printing. But that's a lot less reading rules and games and more about an esthetics of art in a book format.

RPGs are books. Period.

At least for me.

Quote from: blakkieIf you don't mind me asking, what's your rough distribution overhead with PDF? I always assumed [EDIT:you'd take home] in the range of 50ish-60ish%, depending on setup maybe higher than that. Of course that'll vary as a overall percentage per product because of the extra effort in prepping the PDF for the masses.  Even if you do it yourself I don't expect you to count that labour as 'free'. ;)  Start looking at it that way and it understandably it tends to turn into one of the "Miller-time" senarios. Because people gotta eat, and working for free tends to not support one's food habit.

Hmm, I may not be clear on what you are asking for so forgive me if I do not answer directly. The vendors I use take between 25-30%. Everything else is already in the mix. I need to generate pdfs for print versions. The software I use generate bookmarks, links and cross-references for me. Ad Copy is also generated for the print side so it is available.

General COGS is low when talking about PDFs since I do little in the way of additional work to generate and sell them. I take care to make all my advertising dual tasked.

Is that what you were looking for?

Bill