Adam Koebel was canceled over a fairly infamous robot scene. PbtA games solving GM railroading sort of falls apart before it gets off the ground.

I played AW. In addition to a GM railroading, all of the players can too. There is nothing that prevents it.

PbtA is susceptible to bad roleplaying or railroading just like any other system.

Seems like this is wearing into story gamming vs roleplaying territory. To be generous, the problem of bad GM fiat and railroading was solved through fiat and plot by committee when the problem was the bad GM, not GM fiat or having a structured plot. Now discovering that there is a traitor among you is bad thing because there was not traitor there whatsoever until the complication generated, as opposed to a proper game were discovering the presence of a traitor is a good thing because you can now take care of the problem. Shaggy dog storytelling by committee solves the problem of a good game ruined by a bad GM by replacing it with a poor game to be run or ruined by said committee.

Quote from: Itachi on February 14, 2023, 06:16:07 PM
Sorry troll, you're going into ignore.

If anybody else wants to continue the discussion, I'll be around.

Troll: someone who asks for a DIRECT, SPECIFIC example about a ridiculous blanket statement. Fuck off, storyfag.

I'll reiterate: Dungeon World is obtuse and incoherent in general, and my singular experience with it was not fun. I guess I am "doing it wrong" because I think it sucks? "You're not eating this shit sandwich correctly. You only THINK it tastes bad, but that's because you're not enlightened enough to comprehend the smorgasbord of flavors!"

Quote from: Brad on February 15, 2023, 10:23:27 AM

Quote from: Itachi on February 14, 2023, 06:16:07 PM
Sorry troll, you're going into ignore.

If anybody else wants to continue the discussion, I'll be around.

Troll: someone who asks for a DIRECT, SPECIFIC example about a ridiculous blanket statement. Fuck off, storyfag.

I'll reiterate: Dungeon World is obtuse and incoherent in general, and my singular experience with it was not fun. I guess I am "doing it wrong" because I think it sucks? "You're not eating this shit sandwich correctly. You only THINK it tastes bad, but that's because you're not enlightened enough to comprehend the smorgasbord of flavors!"

Christ man.  You are the one who barged in here like AW fucked your mom and huffing your own farts trying to prove a point.  I mean, I get it.  It's kinda your thing around here but fuck dude. Your shtick is getting old.  Maybe go find a new one.

PbtA itself isn't the be-all/end-all of gaming.  It's not the next holy messiah that's going to win everyone over.  It does appeal to a lot of people though, hence why it stuck around and has spread.  You don't like it, fine.  Don't play it.  But don't fucking come in here spouting "storyfag" and claiming people who do like it are some kind of holier than thou elitist who are oppressing you poor lowly shepherds of true gaming.

Now, to the points at hand, yes words mean things and "solved the problem" was said.  But you know what, you can solve something without being 100%.  Like you said, it can't stop someone hell bent on doing it wrong, but if it stops 6, 7, 8 out of 10 people... seems like a pretty good solution to me.

You want an example, fine.  I've got this guy in my gaming group, he's a good player but a horrible GM.  Every time he has tried to run D&D for us it's like riding a train through Ohio and we are desperately trying to derail it.  We've played a few AW games and DW games over the years.  He liked DW enough that he wanted to try his hand at running it the next time we played.  DW made him a fucking savant GM!  He was literally glowing with a holy light while he ran it. That was the best game I've ever played and my life is fucking complete.  Oh, no wait, he ran a halfway decent game and the few times he tried to lay down some tracks he caught himself because of the rules.  We had fun and he learned to loosen up a bit.

Now, I will agree that DW is pretty bad when it comes to presentation.  If it's your first time reading a PbtA game, there is a good chance you are not going to get it on the first read.  I think that's a result of being one of the 1st, if not the 1st, to use the rules outside of AW.  They just didn't do a great job.

Here is a thread talking about PbtA for people who wants to know more..

https://www.enworld.org/threads/what-do-you-think-about-powered-by-the-apocalypse-games.687210/

Quote from: rgalex on February 15, 2023, 12:34:16 PM
Christ man.  You are the one who barged in here like AW fucked your mom and huffing your own farts trying to prove a point.  I mean, I get it.  It's kinda your thing around here but fuck dude. Your shtick is getting old.  Maybe go find a new one.

"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"

He said that flat out. No evidence, just a matter of fact. Provides no evidence to the claim. None. Am I supposed to take this shit seriously? I don't, so any semblance of "you sound mad" is just furious typing. It in no way reflects how much I actually care about this nonsense beyond trying to get some storygamer fucks to admit they are full of shit. Play Dungeon World all you want, I literally do not care, but stop claiming it is a magical panacea that solves all the world's problems, cures cancer, and turns horse piss into top shelf whiskey. The only schtick getting old is the same old song and dance of this ludicrous line of reasoning that, somehow, traditional RPGs are pure trash because the GM runs the game. I am sick of that stupidity to the point that any time someone proposes such a ridiculous notion I think the appropriate response is to reply in kind and call them a fucking loser.

QuoteNow, to the points at hand, yes words mean things and "solved the problem" was said.  But you know what, you can solve something without being 100%.  Like you said, it can't stop someone hell bent on doing it wrong, but if it stops 6, 7, 8 out of 10 people... seems like a pretty good solution to me.

"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"

There is no nuance there. It isn't, "It helps with some issues people have with certain GMs...", it literally says solves. And I do not think it's stopping ANYONE from being a bad GM whatsoever because 1) they can just be bad anyway, and 2) at a certain point you're no longer running the game anyway so is it really a GM?

QuoteNow, I will agree that DW is pretty bad when it comes to presentation.  If it's your first time reading a PbtA game, there is a good chance you are not going to get it on the first read.  I think that's a result of being one of the 1st, if not the 1st, to use the rules outside of AW.  They just didn't do a great job.

Then why is it passed off as the end-all-be-all of gaming all the time? It's garbage. The fact I was told to read a document almost the same size as the rulebook to "get it" is enough to know it sucks. Sorry, not sorry. Fuck storygames and fuck Dungeon World.

Quote from: Itachi on February 15, 2023, 01:14:33 PM
Here is a thread talking about PbtA for people who wants to know more..

https://www.enworld.org/threads/what-do-you-think-about-powered-by-the-apocalypse-games.687210/

It's really just suck all the way down

Lol what. XD

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 15, 2023, 01:30:32 PM
It's really just suck all the way down

QuoteThey are one of the few games you can play " wrong".

Needs lots player buy-in and being comfortable with opposing player agendas.
Players need to be happy with some agency loss on occasion.
Certainly certificate 15+ in most experiences I've seen.
No dice roll is wasted or unneccesary.

"agency loss"

Have fun wanking each other off, I guess.

There's an ancient Chinese fable about a guy who gets a new horse, and the chain of events ends with his son not being drafted in the army because his son broke his leg from falling off that horse during a ride. At each stage of this fable, the father stoically questions whether or not the circumstances were fortunate. This father has agency over the chain of events, rather than letting those events dictate his framing.

What would you count as fortunate or unfortunate during a session?

For example: You miss an attack in combat...

PbtA: This final boss encounter just got even more epically complicated than the other times you missed!

BitD: You're going to have to figure out how your trauma has affected your ability to cope with all of this and drop out from the heist!

Fiasco: Let's sort dice into little piles and be arbitrarily cruel to select members of our little make-believe town of Sims, since there's no consequences!

AD&D: Swing again. Or run, fuck it. You can regroup and try again, or not, totally optional. That other set of ruins looks more interesting anyway.

If all the world's a stage, and each person is a story unto himself, you wouldn't want to live by narrative rules that intentionally piled up complications, or rewarded you for recalling past traumas, or outright failing an attempt as the only means to grow as a character, with every little thing that you do.

Would you transport yourself into the story of:
Harry Potter? Yay!
Lord of the Rings? Yay!
Game of Thrones? Nah I'm good...

Personally, I'd like to chill with based ancient Chinese father way more than... do whatever the fuck storygames are supposed to do, as the drama you put into your framing is the entire driver of those "games" altogether. No thanks. You actually get more agency from the fact that none of that shit is hard-coded into the AD&D system itself.

Quote from: Brad on February 15, 2023, 04:00:08 PM

"agency loss"

Have fun wanking each other off, I guess.

He's got that covered for himself, I'm out.

Edit: I just read that more carefully. Hell of a monkey wrench there.

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 15, 2023, 04:55:55 PMPersonally, I'd like to chill with based ancient Chinese father way more than... do whatever the fuck storygames are supposed to do, as the drama you put into your framing is the entire driver of those "games" altogether. No thanks. You actually get more agency from the fact that none of that shit is hard-coded into the AD&D system itself.

Yep, and that's fine. Apples and oranges and all that. At least you seemed to give a honest chance to it and formed a founded opinion. Instead of, you know pulling shit out of your ass to justify some hate like other people do.

Great, I'll take +1 ongoing to Hard Pass.

Haha nice.

PbtA isn't to everyone's taste, but I'd comment on success rate and risk.

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 11, 2023, 12:14:03 PM
Reviewing the basic moves, it's clear none of them are "trivial" in the sense of being mundane, but I think that he has a point about the successes becoming "trivial" in that they are virtually guaranteed. It's basically a Marty Stu/Mary Sue game mechanic with that consideration, with the possibility of complications giving the illusion of danger and risk. I never plugged that into a calculator using AnyDice stats until now, it's an incredible irony that you can have a +3 bonus to your rolls that would push you into range for reliable full successes, made for any of your efforts made in a bleak, apocalyptic setting where survival is never guaranteed. Complications could get less frequent as you level up, but then the entire dread of the setting is dispelled.

My most common PbtA game is Monster of the Week (MotW), which is semi-horror. I'm not sure which games you've played, but as I've played and run it, the risk is quite real. As I've GMed it, it's one of the most punishing games that I run. MotW evens that out by having luck points, but the point is that players need those.

In traditional RPGs, a failed player roll means nothing happens. In PbtA, a failed roll means "things go to hell" (for "Act Under Pressure" in MotW) or similar. That makes the risk of a roll very real. If the GM doesn't follow through with that, then it can be lame - but that's true for any game. If the GM goes easy then it isn't threatening.

For me me, the whole point of PbtA is that full successes (10+) should be major strides forward, and failures (6-) are devastating. It's what differentiates the game from traditional delay. In combat failure, you don't just miss - the enemy hits you. If you're scouting, then an enemy surprises you. etc.