Quote from: StuartMaybe they already are.

WotC makes Miniatures, CCGs and Boardgames, with lots of overlap with RPGs.  They're all over "out of the box" stuff -- but that means it might be out of the "what is an RPG" box for some people...

Come on, Stuart. You know, the kind of rpgs I'm talking about. The rough stuff..the kinky stuff...you know what I mean

Regards,
David R

Photography? Photographs? Snap, snap, grin, grin?

Quote from: StuartMaybe they already are.

WotC makes Miniatures, CCGs and Boardgames, with lots of overlap with RPGs.  They're all over "out of the box" stuff -- but that means it might be out of the "what is an RPG" box for some people...

Three Dragon Ante.

Wow. A sane Ron Edwards article.  Of course most of it appears to be based on Scott Adams stuff in "Understanding Comics" and "Reinventing Comics" and everyone in the comics scene knows about the "Page 45" model

There's a strong parallel between the rise of DC: Vertigo and the rise of White Wolf.  Both fed off each other in that sort of people who played WW games also read DC: Vertigo

I can't see a WotC producing something as genuinely edgy as (e.g.) Preacher.  Tim had a hard time getting a publisher for Year of the Zombie, even among the indies.  Even White Wolf typically only does cartoon evil (exceptions: Destiny's Price and Shoah)

DC: Vertigo only produced Preacher because the editorial board weren't looking (the intro to one of the trades has a quote from one of the main dudes at DC saying that if they had their eye on the ball, they'd have cancelled/censored Preacher due to content and it would have have been a mistake)

Quote from: TonyLBStuart:  Thanks for this info.  It's ... hard to get my brain around (or maybe it's my heart, not my brain, that's giving me the trouble).  Particularly so since (while Manga certainly do a brisk and well-deserved business around me) Barnes and Nobles in my area have pretty well-stocked areas of TPB superhero comics which seem to do pretty good turnover (if indicated by the number of times I go back to pick up a title I passed over a week ago only to find it sold out).  Marvel's "Ultimate Whatever" lines, in particular, seem to get pretty solid representation and sales.

So ... I don't get the impression that you're actually disagreeing with any of that.  Check me on this:  Superhero comics do sell, right?  The reason they aren't profitable is not that they don't have gross revenues, it's that they have such high overhead in production (glossy comics) and marketing that it consumes their gross revenues and then some.

Have I got that straight?

As someone who hugely loves comics qua comics, I'm hard pressed to hear "They don't make money on their own, but rather are a money sink that helps drive other parts of the related industries" without getting defensive.  Though, intellectually, I know that the whole "money sink that drives the industry" is an honorable place, it still feels like I'm hearing "Superhero comics aren't good enough to stand on their own."  It's an interesting little emotional tangle.

From the big companies, its only a handful of things that actually make a profit for the comics lines as a whole.  Marvel still has high sales of Spider man, X Men and I think its Civil War was high profile enough that it may have sold well.  The big lines that make a bit of money help support the smaller lines that sell poorly but are very good and have a cult following.  Same is true at DC.

But yes, its the overhead that drives the costs up.