I'm not being a cock.

If you want to pay for a GM then in all likelyhood you'd get what you pay for.  The only people who are likely to feel honour bound to produce quality material for less $0.50 an hour are homeless people and asian sweatshop labourers.

It's a stupid idea anyway, most gaming groups are composed of friends or people who have gamed together for so long that they might as well be friends.  introducing money into all that would only make things awkward.  Like slipping your girlfriend a 20 after she goes down on you.

As for the rest of the group, people find it difficult enough to find a group that plays the game they want and that isn't full of twats so i fail to see how money's going to make much of a difference.

If you want to talk professional GMing that's different.  I'd bill myself out at £10 per hour, per person with an extra 2 hours prep time.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI'm not being a cock.

If you want to pay for a GM then in all likelyhood you'd get what you pay for.  The only people who are likely to feel honour bound to produce quality material for less $0.50 an hour are homeless people and asian sweatshop labourers.

Yes, you are being a cock. The point of my post was not "what is a reasonable rate to charge for GMing?" but "how about charging for GMing, would that make players and GMs more reliable and making more effort?" You're missing the point of the thread, and wanting to talk about some other shit. Go start another thread.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's a stupid idea anyway, most gaming groups are composed of friends or people who have gamed together for so long that they might as well be friends.  introducing money into all that would only make things awkward.  

And again, you're missing the point, failing to read what I've written.

I specifically excluded face-to-face play, and am only talking about online play. The people you're likely to game with online, in general, will not be your friends. They're in another country, you've never met them and never will, you don't know what they look like nor have you ever heard their voice. You don't know if they're married, single, black, white, straight, gay, Jewish, Manidean, work in an office or a factory, happy or sad - they're not your friends.

I'm not talking about face-to-face play, where you're often playing with friends, or you become friends over the course of a campaign. I'm talking about online play, where you don't know the people.

I think if you want to be able to call yourself, "Mr. Analytical", then you're going to have to start reading posts, and hitting the point, instead of missing it. Now go away and start another thread. The exact amount paid is not relevant, and face-to-face play with friends is not relevant, either. Go start another thread talking about those.

We can speculate on whether or not it would work, but ultimately the only way to put it to the test is to try it.

Let us know how it goes.

Another issue which I'm not sure was brought up is the GM's side of the responsibility.  Now that the GM is being paid, he shouldn't skip the game either.  Scheduling issues also become much more important.  The game time can't be moved aroudn willy nilly.  There's also the issue of refunds should the GM not continue the game, or the GM otherwise violates the contract the money paid for.

Wow dude.  Didn't you give Ian Noble a bunch of shit about having to pay people to game?  Now here you are suggesting basically the same thing?  

Frankly if my GM pulled that shit on me, I'd be telling him to go fuck himself.  And I am almost 100% certain that every real life gamer I've ever met would have a similar reaction.  I know that whole Camarilla thing never went over well with any of my groups.

This is like one of those retarded ideas you always make fun of that only gets invented by dysfunctional navel-gazers who spend too much time online, because it'd damn sure never work in real life.

I've paid to play quite a few games that were utter crap at conventions. Having bought a ticket didn't seem to increase either player or GM quality on average.

It's been my experience that the best campaigns happened when everyone was psyched about them. Paying money doesn't do that, instead it raises the bar of expectations. I think that factor could result in a lot of otherwise good games "not being good enough."

The whole idea It's just so... pelotuda... I'm honestly not sureif it's supposed to be a joke... I mean, would you really pay to roleplay? Okay, I'd pay to game with Gary Gygax, and I know the guy charges to DM, but if I just happen to know him from the neighborhood and he tries to charge me to game in his house... well, screw it.

This can't be feasbily done now that WOW costs $15/month after you bought the client software, installed and set up your account, and that's only if you're going month-to-month after your free first month.  (At six month installments, it's actually cheaper.)

I certainly wouldn't pay up front.  I've been part of too many shitty convention games run by shitty GM's. Maybe if I you'd run a freebie or two first and then pay to continue...maybe, but still probably not....

I think this would be more easily done PbP vs. with some long-time friends who are used to gaming for free...

PLEASE, PEOPLE!!! You're missing the whole point of RPG!!! Get togheter with your mates and have a funny night!!! Screw the theory, screw the systems!!! It's about people!!! I won't pay to have some guy GMing for me, and I certainly will not charge my friends for Gming. That's utter crap.

Quote from: J ArcaneWow dude.  Didn't you give Ian Noble a bunch of shit about having to pay people to game?  Now here you are suggesting basically the same thing?  

Yes, I did give Ian Noble shit for that. But he was talking about something else. Firstly, paying someone to GM face-to-face games for him - I've specifically said I thought that was a bad idea. Secondly, paying them a professional full-time wage; I'm talking about an honorarium, a token sum.

Quote from: J ArcaneFrankly if my GM pulled that shit on me, I'd be telling him to go fuck himself.  And I am almost 100% certain that every real life gamer I've ever met would have a similar reaction.  I know that whole Camarilla thing never went over well with any of my groups.

Here, you're talking about face-to-face gaming. I specifically said that charging a nominal sum for face-to-face gaming is a bad idea, and that there are better methods to get payer "sense of investment" in face-to-face games; I deal with that in detail in the article Getting Players to Give a Toss.

Quote from: SunBoyPLEASE, PEOPLE!!! You're missing the whole point of RPG!!! Get togheter with your mates and have a funny night!!! Screw the theory, screw the systems!!! It's about people!!! I won't pay to have some guy GMing for me, and I certainly will not charge my friends for Gming. That's utter crap.

You're absoutely right - about face-to-face games.

Online games are not about the people, they're about the game. If I drop dead tomorrow, everyone in my last four game groups will notice, care, and come to my funeral. That is not true of anyone I game with online.

I am talking about paying for reliability in online games. You should not do this in face-to-face games.

I put it in bright colours since some of you seem to have not read it the last twenty times I said it.

Quote from: rcsampleI certainly wouldn't pay up front. I've been part of too many shitty convention games run by shitty GM's.

That's an entirely fair comment. Were I to do it myself, I'd make sure I had up a decent webpage talking about the game's rules and setting, talking about previous campaigns and so on. Then potential players would have some idea of what they're getting into. Consider for example the wiki for my current face-to-face game. I wouldn't consider that "professional", but it's a step above many games, and would be worth a nominal sum if it were an online game.

Oh, well... I dont' play in any online games but I run a few. I'm all for it.

And if, for whatever reason, they're not happy with the session/campaign/your GMing style? Do they get their money back?

Nope. They just wouldn't pay months in advance, if they're smart.

If I buy a gym membership then decide after a few sessions I don't like the place, would they give me my money back? If I rent a dvd then get bored and turn it off halfway through, should I get my money back? If I order a $18 steak and chips, then halfway through don't feel hungry any more, should I get $9 back?

As GM, I've already spent money, time and effort producing webpages, house rules, buying game rules and research material. If two of the three players ditch the game after three sessions, will those two pay me back it all?

If you begin a campaign expecting that you're probably going to leave - well, I'd say you shouldn't bother beginning it. So, Christmas Ape, if I were GMing an online game where the GM got an honorarium, I wouldn't accept you as a player. Before you've even heard what the campaign will be, or met any other players, you're already thinking about leaving. That does not speak to me of great resolve to stick around. Ten bucks, a thousand, or zero - you've just shown you won't be reliable.

Quote from: JimBobOzNope. They just wouldn't pay months in advance, if they're smart.

If I buy a gym membership then decide after a few sessions I don't like the place, would they give me my money back? If I rent a dvd then get bored and turn it off halfway through, should I get my money back? If I order a $18 steak and chips, then halfway through don't feel hungry any more, should I get $9 back?

So GMing is, in this model, a business? Like a gym, or a Blockbuster, or a restaurant; you give the GM money, he gives you sessions of a roleplaying game. Don't like it? Tough, company policy is no refunds.

That's a big steaming bowl of ass gravy, man. All it is.

What about a couple other scenarios, like say...unexpected family/personal health concerns? Power outage due to seasonal storms? Suppose two players have an irreconcilable difference of some kind and simply can't play in the same group; they both paid their money, so who gets kicked? Do you auction off the spot in the group - whoever pays more and is thus more reliable gets it? If the dice rollers come up with a PC getting killed during the second session of 4 they paid for, is there a partial refund, or do you just keep it? More simply; are there any unexpected events which would both keep a player from an online RPG session AND be worthy of a refund?

I'm not going for unreliable, I'm just saying that a lot of shit can occur in a gaming session, online or no - there wouldn't be so much talk about it if there wasn't - and once you introduce money, these are sorts of things that need to be addressed. Right now, it's looking less like "I want reliable players" and more like "I wanna get paid to GM".

QuoteAs GM, I've already spent money, time and effort producing webpages, house rules, buying game rules and research material. If two of the three players ditch the game after three sessions, will those two pay me back it all?

So these items you purchased were purchased only for this game, represent money you'd otherwise have spent on something else, and will never have value after this game? They're one-use items you otherwise have no interest in and intended to throw out when this is over?

You're running the wrong games online. Try something you're interested in.

QuoteIf you begin a campaign expecting that you're probably going to leave - well, I'd say you shouldn't bother beginning it. So, Christmas Ape, if I were GMing an online game where the GM got an honorarium, I wouldn't accept you as a player. Before you've even heard what the campaign will be, or met any other players, you're already thinking about leaving. That does not speak to me of great resolve to stick around. Ten bucks, a thousand, or zero - you've just shown you won't be reliable.

Besides the remarkable ease with which you deem people "unreliable", that's a good thing. Because I'm asking about the finer points of this dumb-ass idea and you're telling me that's unacceptable - just smile and pay up to prove I'm not an unreliable jack-off.

Man, for any amount of money I'd give a shit about I can play an MMO that's available 24/7, has (these days, pretty stylish) graphics, and offers me freedom to dick around all I like instead of pushing the adventure forward.

I've seen worse ideas than this, but they're pretty much all from Dominus and Kiero. Go sober up and look at this again.