Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129067Call them wizards, call them aliens from mork, you can't be an atheist in regards to them, because you know they exist, no faith required, the same makes being an agnostic (don't know if it exists) make zero sense.

The theist believes, the Gnostic knows
the atheist doesn't believe, the agnostic doesn't know.

But you don't need to believe in DnD or similar, you know they exist, you can see them, touch them, talk to them, etc.

No faith required, atheism/theism is a divide on faith while Gnosticism/Agnosticism is a knowledge divide. You don't need faith in such a universe and you do know they exist. Makes zero sense.

Just because they exist does not mean that you would worship them.  A Warhammer marine dressed in his power armour backed up by his ship shooting from orbit have fantastical destructive force but you dont go around worshiping him (unless he calls himself Emperor).

Quote from: SHARK;1129069Greetings!

Hey my friend! Yeah, damned straight! An *Atheist Paladin* *Laughing* They just get stupider and stupider, you know? It's like, what the fuck is wrong with these people? Now a Paladin can be any race, and any alignment, and now they can be atheist, too?

*Laughing*

I'm sorry, I like the ancient archetype. Paladins are zealous, strict, disciplined holy champions, devoted to a god, or goddess, that is Good, and Righteous.

Paladins are not atheists, or demon worshippers, or mushy, liberal hippies. All the circle-jerking hippies can play a FIGHTER. That's what they get, you know? Other religions and alignments can have various flavoured holy warriors, but they aren't Paladins. I believe in exercising the power of NO. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I like what Paizo did with 2e Paladins.  They are the zealous, strict, disciplined holy Champions.

But there are also other Champions as well that are not Paladins.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1129056I can see an atheist in a fantasy world. They'd just believe the 'gods' were really powerful beings, but not capital G gods.

Wasn't there a faction in Planescape that believed such?

There's a follower of the Mythic Dawn in The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, called Elsie God-Hater, who thinks that way (and hates them all - the irony being that the Mythic Dawn are in service of Mehrunes Dagon, the Daedric Prince trying to destroy Tamriel).

Quote from: Shasarak;1129072Just because they exist does not mean that you would worship them.  A Warhammer marine dressed in his power armour backed up by his ship shooting from orbit have fantastical destructive force but you dont go around worshiping him (unless he calls himself Emperor).

Again, no faith required, a Paladin gets his powers from his god, he knows it exists, he needs no faith and can't be an agnostic, plus I think doing the god's bidding counts as worshipping.

WH40K... The one with the God Emperor, the one with soul eating...

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1129074There's a follower of the Mythic Dawn in The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, called Elsie God-Hater, who thinks that way (and hates them all - the irony being that the Mythic Dawn are in service of Mehrunes Dagon, the Daedric Prince trying to destroy Tamriel).

You all miss the point, atheism is the lack of belief, of faith, no faith needed when you KNOW they exist. What difference does it make calling them aliens from mork?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129067Call them wizards, call them aliens from mork, you can't be an atheist in regards to them, because you know they exist, no faith required, the same makes being an agnostic (don't know if it exists) make zero sense.

The theist believes, the Gnostic knows
the atheist doesn't believe, the agnostic doesn't know.

By that reasoning, anything and everything can be a god to someone.
A beetle could be a god. You can see it and touch it, and worship it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129076Again, no faith required, a Paladin gets his powers from his god, he knows it exists, he needs no faith and can't be an agnostic, plus I think doing the god's bidding counts as worshipping.

WH40K... The one with the God Emperor, the one with soul eating...

I always liked the Paksenarrion Paladin myself.  God bothering was always more of a Clerical thing.

Slavery - ALL the Golarion nations with slavery suddenly abandoned it?!

So when that character was growing up, they didn't believe in the god, but they just liked the suit?

Quote from: S'mon;1129084Slavery - ALL the Golarion nations with slavery suddenly abandoned it?!

Yes and now Cheliax is filled with sugar and spice and all things nice.

Oh wait, no it was the opposite.

Atheist Paladin? I don't mind every fantasy religion having their own champions with various abilities but an atheist paladin would be struck by lightning every time he brandished his sword.

"I don't exist? Watch this!"

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129077You all miss the point, atheism is the lack of belief, of faith, no faith needed when you KNOW they exist. What difference does it make calling them aliens from mork?

And you're missing the other side's point.  Yes, the character KNOWS they exist - but the character does not believe that they are gods.  Sure, Thor is sitting over there and he's insanely strong and can call down thunderbolts, but I know a 20th level barbarian who's insanely strong, too, and a 12th level wizard who can call down thunderbolts, and they're not gods, so why should I consider Thor to be a god?  Is it just because he can both be strong and call lightning?  (Nah, I also have multi-classed friends who can do both kinds of things, too.)

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129058You don't need faith because you can see the gods working.

Do you actually see the gods working, or do you see workers of "divine" magic that claim their power comes from gods? The first does not require faith, but the latter does (as there can be many explanations where the power might come from).

Generally, atheists in Golarion are of the 'they're not gods, they're just ridiculously powerful beings!' variety. And it's loosely backed up by certain things; the death of some deities and the ascension of other mortals to godhood.

There are mortals who actively hate the gods (and I mean ALL the gods); I believe 3.5E had a class for that, the ur-priest, which was basically Screw You, I'll Be My Own Religion With Blackjack And Hookers. Also involved stealing divine power to fuel your own spells.

It's noted that atheists in Golarion do not get a good afterlife. Their nature makes them disruptive, and so such souls are sealed up in special areas in Pharasma's domain, and she occasionally feeds one to Groetus so he doesn't fly down too close. I think you'd get a better deal from Asmodeus, all things considered

I don't see why atheism is incompatible with "a fantasy world". The vast majority of fantasy that I consume contains exactly zero direct intervention or definitive presence by anything divine. If I add in "from the character's point of view", the amount of fantasy that would meet that criterion is infinitesimal in relation to the body of fantasy in media.

As far as paladins go, they really don't make sense outside of Christianity. When the paladin sheds that mantle and becomes a "holy warrior", it introduces a "generic holiness" to the game that is by its nature morally relative. And once those gates are open, then anything can be a "holy" or sacred purpose, including atheism. I agree it's ridiculous, but it's a natural consequence of trying to retrofit a Christian archetype into "you know, whatever religion."