TheRPGSite

So, with two weeks left, GoblinWorks would still need about $460k to fund their Pathfinder MMO:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo?ref=live (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo?ref=live)

I posted this in this forum, because I'm wondering, how much money has Paizo put into this, and could it have any adverse effect on the company as a whole? They are closely related with GoblinWorks somehow, I believe. If this goes south, how much resources have already been dedicated to this MMO?

It seems like Paizo is pushing really hard on this MMO, and I'm just not sure they're going to get it done. I also wonder if they sort of milked their folks dry with this previous Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-technology-demo?ref=live).

I think the whole reason they set up Goblinworks was so they could separate themselves (Paizo) from it when/if it flopped.

But the KS is apparently only to make the game faster, supposed they secured enough funding to make it via showing some mysterious secret investors the tech demo they made from the last KS.

QuoteNo.  Most of the budget is being provided by our initial investors, but the money we're raising on Kickstarter is the difference between a 4 year development plan and a much faster, much larger plan.  

I remain profoundly mixed about the Kickstarter.  Baldur's Gate showed it was POSSIBLE to make a computer game based off of table top RPGs and have it work well.  But, most of the time, I see the trade offs between the two mediums as being quite different.  TT-RPGs have to make a GM work and have a lot of room for open ended thinking.  Computer games need to reward play as it happens.  

I worry that being good at a TT-RPG is no prediction about being good at a MMO.

(1) this thread is about the PF MMO. It's not traditional tabletop RPGs, therefore, it should be in Other Games.

(2) my problem with the kickstarter is exactly that: it's an MMO, and I will not fund Ryan's idea that somehow tabletop RPGs can't survive without going MMOs, or that the two mediums are actually comparable to begin with. It's part of what's wrong with the current RPG design culture, to me, and I will not support that.

Quote from: JeremyR;613088I think the whole reason they set up Goblinworks was so they could separate themselves (Paizo) from it when/if it flopped.

But the KS is apparently only to make the game faster, supposed they secured enough funding to make it via showing some mysterious secret investors the tech demo they made from the last KS.

But looking at this from a tabletop point of view, I wonder if it's being pursued to enhance the TTRPG itself, or part of a larger diversification, where the company eventually goes away from pen & paper. With Mr. Dancey involved, I wonder if that's a possibility.

Ryan Dancey has gone from champion to doomsayer and while I can't blame him (he's a businessman and he damn well should think like one), I think he did bite off more than he can chew now. If this thing doesn't get funded, what's he going to do? What happens to the folks who backed the first Kickstarter?

It seems multiple stages of crowdfunding sort of defeat the purpose of crowdfunding in the first place. Here's hoping this doesn't end badly for either side of the bargain.

The fact that it is being done as a kickstarter makes me quite skeptical. Tey might well finish it, but it doesnt fill with me confidence that it will be 1) good quality 2) succesful

Who exactly is the audience for this mmo?

(ie. Besides hardcore Pathfinder fans).


Offhand, I don't see much of an additional audience for another "me too" fantasy themed mmo, when there's already numerous other fantasy games on the market (ie. WoW, etc ...).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;613190The fact that it is being done as a kickstarter makes me quite skeptical. Tey might well finish it, but it doesnt fill with me confidence that it will be 1) good quality 2) succesful

Possibly.

If such an MMO can stand up on its own merits, why would it need to be done as a kickstarter in the first place?

Quote from: ggroy;613199Who exactly is the audience for this mmo?

(ie. Besides hardcore Pathfinder fans).


Offhand, I don't see much of an additional audience for another "me too" fantasy themed mmo, when there's already numerous other fantasy games on the market (ie. WoW, etc ...).

I'm an MMO player in addition to a tabletop player.  I play them at present for different reasons.

However (and my post is prompted mainly because you mention WoW, my game of choice), most MMO's are like WoW - 'themeparks' where there is developer-created content and very VERY little in the way of player-created content (the so-called sandbox).

PFO claims to be a full-featured sandbox.  Now, I don't know how true that actually is, but IF it were true, there is a not-miniscule but often under-represented playerbase looking for a fantasy sandbox other than the incredibly pvp-heavy Darkfall 2:Unholy Wars or Mortal Online, etc.  Whether Paizo could snag them up or not is an important question (especially considering that 3.x, 4E, and PF are more reminiscent of themepark MMO's while a sandbox is more reminiscent of 1st Edition AD&D).  In theory, it could provide some small trickle of new MMO players to become tabletop gamers...now whether or not that would be good since they'd be hopping into 'directed content'-style TT games is up for debate, but as a matter of principle, any new blood is better for the hobby than no new blood.  It provides fresh people to introduce to an authentic gaming experience imo.

Quote from: ggroy;613199Who exactly is the audience for this mmo?

(ie. Besides hardcore Pathfinder fans).


Offhand, I don't see much of an additional audience for another "me too" fantasy themed mmo, when there's already numerous other fantasy games on the market (ie. WoW, etc ...).

Well, that's the thing, apparently it's not really like Pathfinder at all, despite being set in the same world.

It's essentially trying to be a fantasy sandbox, which is the new in thing about MMORPGs now, after Star Wars The Old Republic, pretty much the ultimate theme park, wasn't that successful.

Of course, other than Eve, there really isn't any evidence that sandboxes are popular, and even in that case the number of players is inflated by people having multiple accounts.

Is this thing gonna be pay to play? If so, I wish them luck with that. It's kind of going against the tide with the way MMORPGs have been going in the last few years, with some high profile failures showing that regardless of license, getting money out of lots of paying subscribers is something only WOW has pulled off with long term success.

By the looks of it, it won't be funded anyway.

Quote from: Benoist;613094(1) this thread is about the PF MMO. It's not traditional tabletop RPGs, therefore, it should be in Other Games.

(2) my problem with the kickstarter is exactly that: it's an MMO, and I will not fund Ryan's idea that somehow tabletop RPGs can't survive without going MMOs, or that the two mediums are actually comparable to begin with. It's part of what's wrong with the current RPG design culture, to me, and I will not support that.

Benoist, many of the stretch goals for the project give you pen & paper benefits, so I think it's relevant.

My problem with the Kickstarter is the stupid demo they did earlier, using a ton of money to make, essentially, an early-2000s-level poor example of an MMO, and then asking for more money based on that craptacular demo.  I mean seriously, if that demo was representative of what they want to do with this game, they should have scrapped it.  I think Everyquest looked better.

That, and the fact that they soaked their customer base for money to make a demo, and then a second time to make the game, and then a third time to play the game.  That's just not a way to treat your fan base, particularly for a company that otherwise has a good reputation for treating their fans well.

That said, I still think this will get funded.  A lot of money comes in the final week.  Often two-thirds of the money comes in that time.

Quote from: JeremyR;613370Well, that's the thing, apparently it's not really like Pathfinder at all, despite being set in the same world.

It's essentially trying to be a fantasy sandbox, which is the new in thing about MMORPGs now, after Star Wars The Old Republic, pretty much the ultimate theme park, wasn't that successful.

Of course, other than Eve, there really isn't any evidence that sandboxes are popular, and even in that case the number of players is inflated by people having multiple accounts.

EVE very directly targets a few certain groups of players. It is what it is, and it is not interested in even pretending to be anything else. But it's a game from a different era, when a niche game could have the time to slowly find it's fanbase. And - the big one - it makes a very good return on CCP's investment.

But if you tried to launch a game like it today, you'd be in trouble. The fantasy sandboxes that do exist are even smaller, even more of a niche, and - most importantly - haven't blown up in the same way EVE did. Evidently they're profitable, but fantasy fans don't seem to want that type of play... and people that do, have EVE already.

I don't think Pathfinder will be a company-killer, it will just lurk in the underclass of MMO's that exist, but nobody really cares about.

For the record, I agree to keep this in the Main Forum, as long as the main topic of conversation is the effect of the MMO on the RPG hobby, and not specifically talking about the computer game itself.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;613570For the record, I agree to keep this in the Main Forum, as long as the main topic of conversation is the effect of the MMO on the RPG hobby, and not specifically talking about the computer game itself.

RPGPundit

That's my hope. If it goes the other way, I'm all for moving it.

Stretch goals that are RPG related:

A Pathfinder Society one-use magic item PDF;
Emerald Spire RPG PDF (a superdungeon);
Flip-Mat Multi-Pack in print and PDF;
WizKids Pathfinder Battles Miniatures;
An RPG Print Pack (hardcover print edition of the Emerald Spire Superdungeon, featuring an exclusive cover available only to Kickstarter backers; a print edition of the Emerald Spire Dungeons Flip-Mat Multi-Pack; a print edition of the Pathfinder Tales novel The Crusader Road; and an Emerald Spire Campaign Cards game accessory);
PDF Superpack (42 RPG products from 29 different publishers);
5 Guests for a 5 hour Pathfinder RPG game session with a celebrity DM;

I'd say a fair chunk of this Kickstarter, which is supposed to be about a MMO, is really about the Pathfinder RPG.  A ton of questions involve getting just the non-MMO materials, a ton of the FAQ involves those items as well, and a lot of the discussion comments are people investing just for the RPG material and to "support the RPG company", with no or tepid interest in the MMO.

From a legal perspective (if anyone cares), I'd say Paizo has quite clearly pierced the corporate veil that the separate Goblinworks company could have provided.  It's, essentially, the same company. I'm not sure they care about that issue, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Quote from: Zachary The First;613080I also wonder if they sort of milked their folks dry with this previous Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-technology-demo?ref=live).

Which is part of the problem of overfunding.  People say "Dude, you got an extra quarter million from the Tech Demo, roll that shit over into the actual game, instead of hookers and blow."

I think KS needs to have some defined Overfunding policies.

If life were Shadowrun, Dancey would be doing this purposely to sink Paizo, after which he would walk into a VP slot at WotC. :D

Unless it makes Paizo a new Evil Empire or sinks it totally, I'm not sure of the impact on TTRPGs, but I can easily imagine transmedia crap like "Purchase the new MMO expansion, get exclusive Paizo maps/cards/whatever you can't get anywhere else."  Probably the reverse will happen.  Get the MMO audience, which I assume they are counting on to be bigger, to buy Pathfinder stuff and use that as MMO reference.  Yeah the rules don't matter, but maps, quest hints, etc. might be in there, plus "Buy the new Pathfinder Adventure Path, get these items/mounts/houses in the MMO."  Heck, at this point the people at Paizo just might realize they can't run the splatmill forever and want to monetize the fuck out of this thing so they can fund their retirement, kid's college, mortgage, etc.

Quote from: Mistwell;613594I'd say a fair chunk of this Kickstarter, which is supposed to be about a MMO, is really about the Pathfinder RPG.  A ton of questions involve getting just the non-MMO materials, a ton of the FAQ involves those items as well, and a lot of the discussion comments are people investing just for the RPG material and to "support the RPG company", with no or tepid interest in the MMO.

From a legal perspective (if anyone cares), I'd say Paizo has quite clearly pierced the corporate veil that the separate Goblinworks company could have provided.  It's, essentially, the same company. I'm not sure they care about that issue, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Pretty interesting that people would fund an MMO to support an RPG company. If I wanted to support a tabletop gaming company, I don't know that I'd get involved in an MMO to do it--I'd just try to buy TTRPG product I wanted, and get other people into the RPG.

Unless, of course, they just mean support financially.

Quote from: CRKrueger;613596Which is part of the problem of overfunding.  People say "Dude, you got an extra quarter million from the Tech Demo, roll that shit over into the actual game, instead of hookers and blow."

I think KS needs to have some defined Overfunding policies.

If life were Shadowrun, Dancey would be doing this purposely to sink Paizo, after which he would walk into a VP slot at WotC. :D

From the Kickstarter FAQ:

QuoteWhat happened to the $300K you got last time?
-We used the proceeds of the Pathfinder Online Technology Demo to build the Technology Demo and to develop the Thornkeep book, and to pay for the production and fulfillment of the rewards we offered in our first Kickstarter.

So, for a $50k Kickstarter, they fund it to $300k (about 600%), and spend it all on the demo and rewards? Were there a few trips to Vegas in there somewhere? :)

They raised $300+k for the tech demo when they asked for $50k and then what they made looks like a $50k tech demo.  So, what happened to the rest of the money? They were never clear about any of that.

And then they're back asking for, this time, a million dollars based on a tech demo that looks kind of shitty.

This whole product is made of fail. The MMO they want to do is going to cost WAY more than a million dollars and the tech they've shown so far is pretty lame.  Nevermind the fact that they've gone to the well too many times -- there's only so much Pathfinder MMO desire out there and clearly they've hit the limit.

Quote from: Zachary The First;613599So, for a $50k Kickstarter, they fund it to $300k (about 600%), and spend it all on the demo and rewards? Were there a few trips to Vegas in there somewhere? :)

Yep, it's bullshit.  They pocketed all that extra cash.  Which, good for them since people gave it to them voluntarily, but they should have put it back into the product and make that tech demo look great.

Now they're paying for their greed.

Quote from: Zachary The First;613599spend it all on the demo and rewards?

Looking at the rewards, unless the Herbfarm completes the course with the deflowering of virgins of your ethnic choice while serenaded by the Boston Philharmonic, there's about 200k in the wind.

Or maybe those T-shirts are Samite.

Was the cover of Thornkeep done by Thomas Kincaid?

Quote from: Ian Noble;613605Now they're paying for their greed.

I think they will hit their goal though.  If nothing else they will release some additional RPG material in the last week as an incentive.  Which sort of cannibalizes their core business to fund this.

I find it interesting that apparently, their MMO won't actually play like the Pathfinder RPG does.  It says that there are no Character Classes, for example... I was pretty sure the Pathfinder TRPG had character classes? Or did I dream it?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;613787I find it interesting that apparently, their MMO won't actually play like the Pathfinder RPG does.  It says that there are no Character Classes, for example... I was pretty sure the Pathfinder TRPG had character classes? Or did I dream it?

RPGPundit

Pathfinder is 3e, so yeah, it has character classes.

Quote from: Zachary The First;613599So, for a $50k Kickstarter, they fund it to $300k (about 600%), and spend it all on the demo and rewards?

Quote from: Ian Noble;613603They raised $300+k for the tech demo when they asked for $50k and then what they made looks like a $50k tech demo.  So, what happened to the rest of the money?

Indeed.

While part of the 'extra' cash would of course need to be used to cover the additional pledge premiums, the discrepancy here is so large that I find no way to justify it.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;613812Indeed.

While part of the 'extra' cash would of course need to be used to cover the additional pledge premiums, the discrepancy here is so large that I find no way to justify it.

If it were a matter of $15k over pledge, I don't think any of us would bat an eyelash. But a quarter of a million dollars over a $50,000 goal? That's going to raise some eyebrows.

As for them making the Kickstarter, I don't know. Over $450k to go, and 12 days to do it? I'll be impressed if they do.

Quote from: Zachary The First;613816As for them making the Kickstarter, I don't know. Over $450k to go, and 12 days to do it? I'll be impressed if they do.

This is how it tracked for their Demo kickstarter:
(http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-technology-demo/dailybackers.png)

If that pattern holds even somewhat, they probably still fund.  That's 2/3rds of their total funding in the final 8 days.  Their last post was "Kickstarter tells us that 90% of the projects that reach 30% of their funding are successful. We raised 2/3rds of the pledges for our first Kickstarter in the last 8 days, and 1/3rd of the total in the last 24 hours. We're right on track to hit our goal because most Kickstarters have a LOT of pledges that are made at the end, not the beginning or the middle."

Huh.  Guess we'll see.

Interesting stats, thanks! Should be interesting to see what they throw in from their TTRPG side additionally to try to get it done.

As predicted, they just announced more tabletop RPG material to convince people to fund their MMO.

To me, this says some people are more interested in their TRPG material than in the video game.  And, if that's true, what is the point of the video game?

QuoteEmerald Spire SUPERDUNGEON Expands with 16 additional pages created by Jordan Weisman and Michael A. Stackpole

And:

QuoteThe PDF Superpack Expands!

We've been incredibly amazed by the support the community has given to the PDF Superpack, and it's constantly growing.  We're pleased to announce the following additions to the benefit, included with all $100 Crowdforger Pioneer rewards and higher!

    4 Winds Fantasy Gaming: Inkantations: A Sourcebook of Tattoo Magic & Body Art
    AdventureAWeek.com: A13: Rise of the Drow, Part 1—Descent into the Underworld
    Clockwork Gnome Publishing: Finwicket's Bestiary: Along the Faerie Path, The Rogues Gallery: The Cloven Hoof Syndicate
    Dreamscarred Press: Third Dawn Adventure Path—From the Deep #1: Uncertain Futures
    Fat Goblin Games: Racial Ecologies: Guide to the Feyborn
    Fear The Boot: Bloodmoon Goblins
    Frog God Games: Cyclopean Deeps #1-#2, Slumbering Tsar #1-#2-#3, Unusual Suspects
    Lee's Lore: 100 Cantrips, 100 Male Gnome Names, Fantasy Maps: Bless'd Harbor, True Naming
    Legendary Games: The Way of Ki

Quote from: Mistwell;614338As predicted, they just announced more tabletop RPG material to convince people to fund their MMO.

To me, this says some people are more interested in their TRPG material than in the video game.  And, if that's true, what is the point of the video game?

:

Is it just perhaps a big show of support? "I don't need/want this, but I like Paizo, so I'll kick in my share".

first they blow 300k on a craptastic tech demo that anyone could have done out of the box over a weekend with unity. it was really poorly looking and showcased nothing of what an mmo needs.

from everything they have written they dont seem to know how to do an mmo.

the write up has changed since its original posting, originally they listed the awesome people working on it, and it was some schmoe as animation lead who worked on a bunch of MMO's (but which could not be named because they were shit), some guy who worked on Elder Scrolls Online (which if that is going to be as big a hit why is he not still there but jumped ship??), someone else who worked on myst online (oh yeah.. big.. um memorable blockbuster that was) and is really focussed on mmo's..

all these people were worthy of mention in the beginning and they are nobodies with no real titles to their names.

the original write up also said things like they would have open beta in a year if they raised the 1m, this statement is since gone but you can google it quoted all over the place, in the comments section of paizo's  press release.

QuoteWe would rather report to you, our customers, than to some investor who is only interested in how quickly they can get a return on their investment.

yep.. they'd rather take my money with no recourse, than be beholden to someone with the power to demand anything from them in return.  oooh, investors demand royalties, customers dont. gotcha.

said quote has since been removed from the kickstarter page.


pertinent question tho, how well did DnD online go?? oh yeah, even when it was free to play it sank like a stone. PF is what, the SRD DnD.. hmm. the tech demo was graphically poorer than DnD online imo.

I really dont like that its a PVP system so if someone kills you, they loot all your stuff and what they dont take is destroyed.. your hard earned work for what?? HUGE disincentive.
This is the hardcore model people FLED from in the MMO infancy, and they think brining it back will be a good thing. Its NOT going to tempt the paying hoards from WoW to come play in their sandbox.
They are going back to the original ultima online, persistant sandbox, they want people who will make stuff, people who will kill stuff and people who will build stuff... sure... again, ultima online proved this mechanic does not work.

some of ryans posts over on the blog show he just does not understand modern mmo paying customers.
eg: https://goblinworks.com/blog/index.html#20120118

I think its interesting they are getting as far away from any d20 SRD mechanic as they can so as not to have to comply with anything in the license with the MMO. I'd bet WotC would have an itchy lawyer trigger finger ready for Paizo/Goblinworks should they think there is a blurring of anything in the d20 OGL. I'd wager its a too big a risk for the core Paizo game line.. There is a lot of broad terms in that license.

Pathfinder fans are not really going to get 'Pathfinder' flavour and mechanics.

Someone brought up why no classes? Classes are product identity, which is EXPLICITLY covered and NOT included in the open game content, character creation is WoTC stuff. The SRD has nothing about character creation, ability scores, level advancement etc. So Paizo cant freely use this in an MMO. Its that big "No Covered Product may be an "Interactive Game" as defined in this Guide" thing in the license.

WotC also say, your Open Game Content must be readable etc by everyone, aka show me the source code, the tables to drive xp etc all the gritty content.

An MMO would be seen as a derivative under the OGL.

(I may be confusing the d20 licensing rulse and the ogl licensing rules. its confusing.)

my post is all over the place, too much hard apple cider!

Quote from: BloodyCactus;614399I really dont like that its a PVP system so if someone kills you, they loot all your stuff and what they dont take is destroyed.. your hard earned work for what?? HUGE disincentive.
This is the hardcore model people FLED from in the MMO infancy, and they think brining it back will be a good thing. Its NOT going to tempt the paying hoards from WoW to come play in their sandbox.
They are going back to the original ultima online, persistant sandbox, they want people who will make stuff, people who will kill stuff and people who will build stuff... sure... again, ultima online proved this mechanic does not work.

While I personally agree with you, but after Star Wars The Old Republic failed, the new buzzword in MMORPGs is "sandbox" (helped somewhat by the Minecraft phenomenon). Eve is now the darling of the MMORPG world (and press).

Quote from: BloodyCactus;614399the write up has changed since its original posting, originally they listed the awesome people working on it, and it was some schmoe as animation lead who worked on a bunch of MMO's (but which could not be named because they were shit), some guy who worked on Elder Scrolls Online (which if that is going to be as big a hit why is he not still there but jumped ship??), someone else who worked on myst online (oh yeah.. big.. um memorable blockbuster that was) and is really focussed on mmo's..

all these people were worthy of mention in the beginning and they are nobodies with no real titles to their names.

I went to college with the lead artist.  He played in some 2e games with me (circa 1995).  His brother is in my current group.  We've been gaming together regularly (every other week-ish) for nearly 20 years.

That's not a statement on his competence, altho I personally think he's a very good artist.  It's more a curiosity.  

-Skeld

The Pathfinder MMO is so win/win. If if succeeds, Pathfinder is now the version of D&D that is actually a MMO. If it fails, it becomes another chapter in the Dancey Chronicle.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;615037The Pathfinder MMO is so win/win. If if succeeds, Pathfinder is now the version of D&D that is actually a MMO.

Except, the new D&D MMO will be out long before this (if it ever does) happens.

But, it will be nice to see Dancey muss this up.

This will be close, However I believe it will fund. The last week usually sees the most commitments.

6 days, 354k to go.

Couple of things here. If it were me, the surplus from the first Kickstarter would be used to roll this right into the funded zone. Remember the demo was overfunded by 250k! If they only need another 100k it will definitely fund.

Second, on using that original money for hookers and blow, I heard some years ago that Dancey had invested in a Vegas nightclub (Pre-CCP era), at least for a time, so that's already there. No need to throw money at that, when a simple phone call will do.

Third, I was curious about some of the aspects of this and corresponded a bit. Like CCP, this is for a targeted MMO audience. Early investments will yield a considerable stake in the direction the gameworld takes.

Golarion will be homesteaded by various factions and adventuring groups. Control of key strongholds and areas of interests will yield surplus revenues for the factions controlling that territory. There is going to be some interesting customization options for factions as well.

The game is being done up in the Unity3d game engine, with Directx11 tech. This is a solid development platform, and will enable the game to be published for PC, Linux, Mac, Wii, PS3/4, iOS, Mobile, and of course Xbox 360, meaning there is an untapped audience for this MMO that has previously not had access to a AAA MMO Title.

This will be available on a subscription model very similar to Eve.

Personally, I have already been at work putting together a faction to build or take (and hold) a castle or stronghold. Next time I'm visiting there, I'll have to remember to ask about NPCs, as I could use a few more swords and battlemages. Come to think of it, anyone else here interested in helping me stake a claim to Golarian, (especially in the European time zones, since all my peeps at the moment are on U.S. soil) please PM me, as it looks like this will be designed to be one of those 23/7 type games.

Initially at least, there's going to be an emphasis on exploration, so early groups can get out into the wilds of Golarion, find an out of the way place, where they won't be trampled by the battleherd, and gather enough resources to build (or seize) a stronghold, fortify it, and trap the surrounding terrain enough to discourage larger armies from just waltzing in and taking over.

This is looking to be real interesting, I really hope it funds!

4 days left, $705k.

I wonder how much tabletop RPG stuff or special deals they'll funnel to backers if they need a last boost to get it done?

Right now a Pathfinder MMORPG could work if it takes the (original) Nevewinter Nights road: a program that at the same time works as a traditional RPG, a construction kit and a persistent world server. It was the combination of all of this which "made" NWN.

Today the biggest roadblock - beside programming expertise - are the graphics. Either it is clear that PFMMORPG is "rich on content, indie on graphics", or there is no way they can compete with Everquest Ii, ToR or Skyrim on the graphic costs alone - which, as of 2013, is the biggest killer.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/are-high-end-graphics-worth-the-trouble-6402131/?tag=Topslot%3bAreHighendGraphicsWorthTheTrouble%3bAreHighendGraphicsWor%3bGoNow

$807,385 current, 47 hrs left.

They'll make it, I think.  I don't think it went as well as they had planned.

Quote from: Mistwell;617417$807,385 current, 47 hrs left.

They'll make it, I think.  I don't think it went as well as they had planned.

$858,849 pledged of $1,000,000 goal  

22 hours left.

It is going to be tight.  I wonder if the get less the later you pledge is giving them an unusual response curve?

It won't fail, because Paizo won't let it.  The cost for them would be too high.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;617729It won't fail, because Paizo won't let it.  The cost for them would be too high.

RPGPundit

Do you think they'll just continue to incentivize, or is there any benefit to them closing the gap themselves if it's close?

Quote from: Votan;617691$858,849 pledged of $1,000,000 goal  

22 hours left.

It is going to be tight.  I wonder if the get less the later you pledge is giving them an unusual response curve?

Now $890k and 10 hours. Can't see them making it, there's not been anywhere near enough ramp in the past couple days.

Quote from: Zachary The First;617833Do you think they'll just continue to incentivize, or is there any benefit to them closing the gap themselves if it's close?

It depends on how much it's worth to them. We're potentially looking at a $75kish shortfall (Rough, optimistic extrapolation) for them to make up, plus KS fees (5%, isn't it?) on their final take, plus costs of providing rewards.

Risky, very risky. It's a lot of money for a relatively small publisher (Even if they are huge in the RPG market) to throw around on a project that is likely to have a low return anyway, and even that years in the future. It would be a very good time to bow out gracefully, if they wanted to.

I'm interested in seeing what happens next.

Quote from: Zachary The First;617833Do you think they'll just continue to incentivize, or is there any benefit to them closing the gap themselves if it's close?

That would violate kickstarter rules.  But it's not like Kickstarter has the resources or inclination to investigate the individual contributors and screen out employees and contractors of Paizo, who could coincidentally get bonuses to cover their contribution later.  If asked they would just say "we're gamers too", and thousands of fanbois would back them up on that.

Though, again, I think it will fund on its own even without that.  When you offer enough miniatures and books and PDFs, it's a fair TRPG purchase for D&D fans who play Pathfinder.  

But the MM0? I don't think this went down how they hoped it would, and I don't think it will be very popular.

Ryan's latest:

QuoteGoblinworks Inc. 7 minutes ago

@All - Ladies and Gentlemen we have passed $900,000. [9 hrs to go]

I told my team before Christmas that if we got to $900,000, I was totally confident that we could make the $1 million goal. Today, I am totally convinced we will hi the $1,000,000 goal.

This is the final milestone. The "Hilary Step" before the summit.

We've got fresh oxygen tanks. Tenzing says the weather looks good.

We are GO for the summit!

Quote from: Mistwell;617856That would violate kickstarter rules.  But it's not like Kickstarter has the resources or inclination to investigate the individual contributors and screen out employees and contractors of Paizo, who could coincidentally get bonuses to cover their contribution later.  If asked they would just say "we're gamers too", and thousands of fanbois would back them up on that.

Though, again, I think it will fund on its own even without that.  When you offer enough miniatures and books and PDFs, it's a fair TRPG purchase for D&D fans who play Pathfinder.  

But the MM0? I don't think this went down how they hoped it would, and I don't think it will be very popular.

Interesting take. Thanks! I guess we'll wait and see how the evening plays out.

Quote from: Mistwell;617862Ryan's latest:

Can't argue with a confident man.

Quote from: One Horse Town;617865Can't argue with a confident man.

Looks like he's right; they'll make it, with room to spare. They're less than 40k away.

Quote from: Zachary The First;617985Looks like he's right; they'll make it, with room to spare. They're less than 40k away.

Yep, funded with five hours to go.

I couldn't give a shit about this MMO but the tears of the rpgnet crowd are sweet. I wonder if Ettin will even have the intestinal fortitude to revisit the 90 page troll thread he started.

I don't keep up with all the kickstarters. Is this the first (rpg, hobby, entertainment oriented) one funded at the $1,000,000 mark?

Quote from: Dimitrios;618045I don't keep up with all the kickstarters. Is this the first (rpg, hobby, entertainment oriented) one funded at the $1,000,000 mark?

Reaper took more but against a lower initial target, they did it all in stretch goals.

Outside of RPGs, Elite 4 (computer game) funded on a higher base goal recently.

Quote from: Votan;618028Yep, funded with five hours to go.

That's the second RPG-related Kickstarter I wrote off as a failure, that somehow managed to succeed. Good for them.

Quote from: Dimitrios;618045I don't keep up with all the kickstarters. Is this the first (rpg, hobby, entertainment oriented) one funded at the $1,000,000 mark?

Far from it. Hell, even Order of the Stick broke a million dollars (1.2 million, IIRC).

Quote from: Dimitrios;618045I don't keep up with all the kickstarters. Is this the first (rpg, hobby, entertainment oriented) one funded at the $1,000,000 mark?

Far from it. Hell, even Order of the Stick broke a million dollars (1.2 million, IIRC).

My original trend analysis (I work in finance) had this MMO going up to around $550k, but they managed to really pull it off with some homestretch funding.

Good for them!

I think this is gonna be a burn in the long run. Gonna cost them way more than they expect to get to completion. I hope those who funded understand they are patrons not customers and probably wont see anything for their cash (beyond the costless PDF's paizo will hand out) and wheverelse the bulk of the money is coming from dont expect quadratic returns.

Quote from: BloodyCactus;618129I think this is gonna be a burn in the long run. Gonna cost them way more than they expect to get to completion. I hope those who funded understand they are patrons not customers and probably wont see anything for their cash (beyond the costless PDF's paizo will hand out) and wheverelse the bulk of the money is coming from dont expect quadratic returns.

WTF are you babbling on about? ...are not by chance from rpg.net?

You really don't get it? This is a project that has been worked on steadily since the first Kickstarter without interruption. The basic game engine is done, There was a place somewhere were you could download a Unity3d walk-thru of Golarion. They have the character class concepts done. They have tons of equipment and accessories, done. What remains are the adventure storylines, and missions/quests (Which I'm sure they have been working on already as well, at least at the outline level (if not actual storylines and quests) on the game design doc.)

Then there is the Beta playtest, where the first round investors/adventurers/factions will get to stake claims to various parts of Golarion. It's going to cost less to complete, because most of it is already done already...

Unity is awesome. You know how much just one decent Level Design guy can get done in a day?

Unity is alright for consoles, devices, things without real graphics cards.  Nothing Unity can really compete with even low power DX10 PC engines, let alone the newest stuff.

Quote from: CRKrueger;618159Unity is alright for consoles, devices, things without real graphics cards.  Nothing Unity can really compete with even low power DX10 PC engines, let alone the newest stuff.

Unity has run DX11 with the new and improved shaders ever since Dx11 was released... Unity Pro integrates seamlessly with multithreaded CPU (and GPU) architecture on PC (Intel and AMD), MAC (Apple), Linux, Xbox 360, PS3/4, Wii and Wii U, as well as for Android and iOS for iPhone.

Every kid with a PC or tablet can download Unity3d to make or add their own content.

When you consider price-to-performance, it's second to none, and consistently ranks in the top 5 for all game engines.

When you consider performance only, and are willing to provide a spare limb, along with your firstborn... you just might be able to build a AAA title with Havok, or Rage, or the CryEngine.

Eh. Wasteland 2 is using Unity and it's got 3x the Kickstarter money; and besides, with $1M, could they do that much better than what Unity allows? I guess maybe if they were hot shit indie programmers but I don't see that they've got that going for them.

I mean, I'm not going to give a shit about it unless it turns into Neverwinter Nights Pathfinder Edition or something – MMOs aren't my thing. I'm just saying.

Quote from: GameDaddy;618154WTF are you babbling on about? ...are not by chance from rpg.net?

rpg.net? no never been there.

Quote from: GameDaddy;618154You really don't get it? This is a project that has been worked on steadily since the first Kickstarter without interruption. The basic game engine is done,

I get it more than you. They only just decided to use Unity. There is NOTHING done game engine wise. The techdemo was not made with Unity. buying a Unity license, does not equal Game Engine, Server Backend, Low Latency network stack for 10,000 fucking players at once load balancing. They dont even have a backend component yet or front end components (if they did, they would name them, They like to throw the names out of everything else they have touched or thought of using.)

Quote from: GameDaddy;618154There was a place somewhere were you could download a Unity3d walk-thru of Golarion.

yeah um righto. I guess that means MMO to you then.

Quote from: GameDaddy;618154What remains are the adventure storylines, and missions/quests (Which I'm sure they have been working on already as well, at least at the outline level (if not actual storylines and quests) on the game design doc.)

nah thats the shit you, as the customer, get to create for them. Guess you skipped over the part where you'll be providing the content.

Quote from: GameDaddy;618154Then there is the Beta playtest, where the first round investors/adventurers/factions will get to stake claims to various parts of Golarion. It's going to cost less to complete, because most of it is already done already...

BWAHAHA. Stop, stop, Ima pee on my kilt if you keep this up.

Quote from: GameDaddy;618154Unity is awesome. You know how much just one decent Level Design guy can get done in a day?

At this point, I'm not sure you even know Unity's capabilities, let alone read some of the dev blog posts on Goblinworks to know the state of things.

Quote from: BloodyCactus;618166At this point, I'm not sure you even know Unity's capabilities, let alone read some of the dev blog posts on Goblinworks to know the state of things.

Mmmm. no. That would be you...

Here's the latest Hangout, from 8:00 pm this evening where Ryan Dancey, and Lisa, and the Paizo crew goes over what's up with the newest MMO as they wrap up the Kickstarter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vNxwSHZ41T0

I have been actively using Unity3d for five years now, ever since it was first released. I chose it after looking at every other notable game engine on the market (Except for CryEngine, of course, the insane bastiches there wanted thousands just to play with it... and never played with the Rockstar Rage engine either.That is a proprietary engine, and I don't get along with Sony, at all... so no loss.

Here's a Castle game level for Windows built in a day with Unity by yours truly right around Thanksgiving, the houses took longer, but were done earlier. You might get by with a DirectX9 video card, but I'd go with Directx11 to keep your FPS decent and smooth. Just unzip the zip file onto your desktop and run it. It's a 41Mb download...

http://gamedevonline.net/unity/Almiris.zip


(http://gamedevonline.net/unity/Almiris-mini.jpg)

In the end, I joined the kickstarter for $15.00 (for the Emerald Spire adventure, with Mentzer being the tipping point).

What I really think that this demonstrates is the immense amount of loyalty and goodwill Paizo has managed to generate in the gaming community.  It's stretched it a bit, but the fans want them to succeed.  In the end, there were 8732 fans willing to try and give them a chance to do something great.

So good for them, and I hope they keep creating high quality products.

Quote from: GameDaddy;618176Mmmm. no. That would be you...

nah. I'm quite familiar with an older version. Last time I used it I chose Torque over it. Things are quite different now. (this was in '09, my employer only had ogre/torque/unity within budget, they were all pretty shit back then.) It was quite different from the commercial engines I've messed with (bullfrog magic carpet, wipeout, afl98, dark reign, powerslide, all of which are quite old predating the unity/torque/ogre. I'm glad I'm out of the gamedev business, no more arguing about Gouraud vs Phong shading over lunch, how many clock cycles does X take in ASM, custom pipeline for cpu Y)

Quote from: GameDaddy;618176Here's a Castle game level for Windows built in a day with Unity by yours truly right around Thanksgiving

How many objects in the scene? Total polys? Have they improved scene management and object heirachy? they were bitches to work with. Lets delete an object.... and come back after lunch. I'd check it out but I dont run windows. You running a custom co-ordinate system so you can have an infinite size map? I remember some bitchtastic lights/occlusion culling bugs in one version we tested ugh.

Quote from: BloodyCactus;618183How many objects in the scene? Total polys? Have they improved scene management and object heirachy? they were bitches to work with. Lets delete an object.... and come back after lunch. I'd check it out but I dont run windows. You running a custom co-ordinate system so you can have an infinite size map? I remember some bitchtastic lights/occlusion culling bugs in one version we tested ugh.

There's a lot of objects in the scene, more than a thousand trees easy... maybe Twenty buildings total, (although they each have multiple windows and doors), 71 working animations.
The Castle is just one object, but there's a fracture tool available that can be called, to you know... destroy walls and stuff.


I don't even count polys and verts, don't have to yet. I'm averaging about a million triangles and 900,000 verts per frame draw. The lights/occlusion issue has been taken care of long ago (I actually remember that by the way, would get some really weird lit up hills in shaded areas depending on where I setup my light sources). The flying snow itself, is 300,000 or so particles...

It's running at 58.8 fps on my system with no one connected, though that frame rate would drop a few fps on a network with clients connected, but probably not on my end, on the client end.

I can delete an object, easily up to a hundred in between frames, and have some new objects spawn in their place (or not) and this puppy won't miss a beat, at least you wouldn't be able to see that. It actually loads the new lod models in between frames depending on how far away the object is from the camera.

This should run on Linux just fine too. Maybe someone would be kind enough to test it as my Ubuntu system lacks the graphics card to run this.

The whole thing about this is you can iterate fast and make changes if things aren't working, and have a patchfile to install when you are done.

Unreal is a pain to work with micromanaging you every step of the way. Intel's Havok is good, but it's expensive, and about midway between Unity and the Unreal engine in terms of being user friendly. I gave Ogre a test spin (probably around 2010), along with the Crystal game engine and it was still sucking hard... (Crystal too).

I never tried any of the other game engines. I wanted a game engine that worked, one where I could load Directx, 3ds, Collada, and Blender, models and animations, and work on scripting out emergent events and Unity is just fine for that.

There's no need for a custom coordinates system, I can write a script that will setup a 3d zone that automatically triggers a new level load whenever the camera gets close to that 3d zone.

The whole game level is about 6km x 6km with the castle roughly in the center.

Quote from: Votan;618179In the end, I joined the kickstarter for $15.00 (for the Emerald Spire adventure, with Mentzer being the tipping point).

What I really think that this demonstrates is the immense amount of loyalty and goodwill Paizo has managed to generate in the gaming community.  It's stretched it a bit, but the fans want them to succeed.  In the end, there were 8732 fans willing to try and give them a chance to do something great.

So good for them, and I hope they keep creating high quality products.

I jumped in at the end for $15 too, just so I could get the megadungeon PDF.  Don't discount the fact that a non-trivial number of people have jumped on the project because it's a theme park MMO.  

Honestly, last night I didn't think this KS would fund, but the spike today was unreal.  

-Skeld

I don't have an ounce of faith this project will end up anywhere good and wholesome, but I've got to salute Ryan for pulling off this success. If I ever need to sell a supertanker's worth of snake oil, he will be my number one guy.

I don't understand why a big part of me wanted to see this fail.

Perhaps its my fear that Paizo see mmo's as the future and the mmo will become the flagship #1 priority at the rpg lines expense. Perhaps it's the shake down of their audience as Dancey rattles the tin to fund something that is unlikely to appear for years if at all. Or maybe its tall poppy syndrome, the innate desire of Australians to see successful people fail.

I can't work it out, it seems almost irrational. Did anyone else hope this would fail?

Quote from: Monkey Boy;618224Perhaps its my fear that Paizo see mmo's as the future and the mmo will become the flagship #1 priority at the rpg lines expense.

I suspect they won't go down this road, unless their mmo becomes a huge overnight sensation.

Quote from: Monkey Boy;618224Perhaps it's the shake down of their audience as Dancey rattles the tin to fund something that is unlikely to appear for years if at all.

Hopefully it won't become like another "Duke Nukem" or "Chinese Democracy".

Quote from: Monkey Boy;618224I don't understand why a big part of me wanted to see this fail.

...

I can't work it out, it seems almost irrational. Did anyone else hope this would fail?

Perhaps it's just simple human nature to indulge in schadenfreude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude), for both real and potential events.

Ooh, a 3D game engine discussion.

If I had a choice, I'd pick ID Tech 5, without question. This is because of its features, code clarity, and the fact it will eventually be open sourced. My second choice however would be Unity, the only engine that makes the senior producer at Epic Games go 'wow', and triple A titles are about the only thing it CAN'T do. I don't really have a third choice, but I've been consistently disappointed in the open source engines I've played around with.

Quote from: Monkey Boy;618224Did anyone else hope this would fail?

Depends on your definition.

They may actually complete the project with the KS funding, but I have no confidence that this project is going to be sustainable. I've heard too many stories about MMOs failing (from listening to various video game insider podcasts over the last couple of years).

Of course, I have no personal experience working on video games - and I wrongly predicted that the 'collectable' D&D miniatures line launch would be rejected by gamers - so take that as you will...

Quote from: Monkey Boy;618224I don't understand why a big part of me wanted to see this fail.

Perhaps its my fear that Paizo see mmo's as the future and the mmo will become the flagship #1 priority at the rpg lines expense. Perhaps it's the shake down of their audience as Dancey rattles the tin to fund something that is unlikely to appear for years if at all. Or maybe its tall poppy syndrome, the innate desire of Australians to see successful people fail.

I can't work it out, it seems almost irrational. Did anyone else hope this would fail?

yep, i was hoping it would tank, too.  mostly because i think dancey's an annoying overblown prick, though.

ID Tech 5 is not currently available, I'll look at it if it is ever open sourced.

I think the subscription model and the existing customer base will make this a sustainable MMO if the the game world is properly balanced to ensure continued play.

With Eve their was a problem where the "old guard" factions horks up so much territory that new players have trouble establishing a permanent base of operations.

Quote from: GameDaddy;618552ID Tech 5 is not currently available

Have you asked ID?

They may not advertise the fact, and they may even say no, but one thing I've always observed from ID is that they are reasonable and open to suggestions, and their code is razor sharp, which is important to me as dealing with unclear code causes me a lot of lost time and suffering.

Quote from: GameDaddy;618552I think the subscription model and the existing customer base will make this a sustainable MMO if the the game world is properly balanced to ensure continued play.

This is something I don't think they can do with their current design. They seem to be relying a LOT of task specialization. Also, there's a reason Guild Wars got rid of dedicated healers.

Quote from: GameDaddy;618552With Eve their was a problem where the "old guard" factions horks up so much territory that new players have trouble establishing a permanent base of operations.

Hmm, EVE Onland...

I'm concerned that the Pathfinder MMO Kickstarter will create its own 'Old Guard' consisting of the people who pledged, which in a way is fair, but it would be far better if that privilege was earned in game or available to all for a fee rather than to a select few who got in on the ground floor. I mean you are trying to build a community here, and starting with a group of elites may not be the best way to do that.

I heard the Goon Squad is planning to curbstomp the MMO if they allow open world PvP, just to fuck with Dancey.  The guild running around killing everyone in the first few days of release would be pretty funny actually.

Quote from: CRKrueger;618820I heard the Goon Squad is planning to curbstomp the MMO if they allow open world PvP, just to fuck with Dancey.  The guild running around killing everyone in the first few days of release would be pretty funny actually.

Did Dancey kill a puppy or something? Why are they so angry at him?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618824Did Dancey kill a puppy or something? Why are they so angry at him?

OGL & Pathfinder.

They won't need goons for that, since any MMORPG with unregulated PvP will attract player killers by the hundreds. It is a fine tradition starting with the grand-daddy of them all, Ultima Online, which was reduced to the digital equivalent of Mogadishu within weeks of the grand opening ceremony, populated by roving bands of murderers who would kill and strip naked all newbies they came across. Then the monetary system collapsed due to runaway crafting and a badly designed economic model, followed by uncontrollable urban sprawl which littered the continent with the bare shells of abandoned player-built real estate. And that was the point where UO started to become beautiful.

Quote from: Melan;618833TAnd that was the point where UO started to become beautiful.

How so? Because it sounds like a trainwreck by today's standards.

Quote from: One Horse Town;618825OGL & Pathfinder.

Yep, apparently these two things killed rpgnet's precious 4th edition instead of its innate shitness.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;618785I'm concerned that the Pathfinder MMO Kickstarter will create its own 'Old Guard' consisting of the people who pledged, which in a way is fair, but it would be far better if that privilege was earned in game or available to all for a fee rather than to a select few who got in on the ground floor. I mean you are trying to build a community here, and starting with a group of elites may not be the best way to do that.

Well, from what I have gathered, they'll indeed have an early advantage, at least when it comes to the core territories that already have built strongholds and settlements.

One aspect that Ryan emphasized when we were discussing it though, was the exploration, crafting, and settlement aspect. They are planning on making it big enough, so that small groups and factions can break away from established nation/states and build a formidable stronghold or culture way out in the wilderness before contact with any other group. I kind of really want to see (and be a part of) this as it plays out. I already have a small guild ready to go, It'll be my peeps from the Oblivion MMO. We either want to make or take a stronghold, and see how it goes.

Quote from: Melan;618833They won't need goons for that, since any MMORPG with unregulated PvP will attract player killers by the hundreds. It is a fine tradition starting with the grand-daddy of them all, Ultima Online, which was reduced to the digital equivalent of Mogadishu within weeks of the grand opening ceremony, populated by roving bands of murderers who would kill and strip naked all newbies they came across. Then the monetary system collapsed due to runaway crafting and a badly designed economic model, followed by uncontrollable urban sprawl which littered the continent with the bare shells of abandoned player-built real estate. And that was the point where UO started to become beautiful.

Although I was trampled by those wargs, there was an excitement to UO back then that I've found lacking in any other MMO.

Quote from: GameDaddy;618902Well, from what I have gathered, they'll indeed have an early advantage, at least when it comes to the core territories that already have built strongholds and settlements.

One aspect that Ryan emphasized when we were discussing it though, was the exploration, crafting, and settlement aspect. They are planning on making it big enough, so that small groups and factions can break away from established nation/states and build a formidable stronghold or culture way out in the wilderness before contact with any other group. I kind of really want to see (and be a part of) this as it plays out. I already have a small guild ready to go, It'll be my peeps from the Oblivion MMO. We either want to make or take a stronghold, and see how it goes.

Dancey's got the dream that any game designer since UO has gotten, but anyone who has tried it, fails.  Well, ok, I guess Darkfall did pretty good.  Other games have had success with Realm vs. Realm (RvR) the best one of those, DAoC influenced WoW and WAR.

The problem with open world pvp and player made towns is, once people know what time zone most of your guild is in, they're gonna jack you at 4am.  You can't have a player only run world, there has to be NPCs who keep things going when players aren't there.  Otherwise, you get Mogadishu, because no one will ever be able to stay on long enough to establish true law.

Quote from: Planet Algol;618920Although I was trampled by those wargs, there was an excitement to UO back then that I've found lacking in any other MMO.

In UO people role-played, end of the story.

I played Valeria, a vapid wizardress (in those innocent times a female character for sure was played by a female). I was also a rake: became "best friend" with our guild leader and i was daily showered with gold and spell reagents without lifting a finger.

I introduced a female friend of mine to the game with the words "Chauvinism my ass. I was sure some ideas of mine about the female gender were anything but born by nerdrage". She called me "a shameful bitch" - and, of course, in a week time, she was already settled with her sugar daddy (which I managed to milk a bit, too, miffing ner to no end). Later she opened a brothel. I'll leave the details out (except for the screamsheet: "100% female players guarandeed. No bearded truckers".

UO was the only time where I was involved in a bank robbery. A bunch of guys entered, evoked demons from hell against the guards, killed and depredated everybody, and were out of the city in maybe three minutes. It was the heist in "Heat" UO style.

UO was a game where you could take a walk with your friends in a peaceful part of the kingdom, set up a scene from Shakespeare on a city plaza and get money from it (I applauded, not my character), and even fall in love and have virtual sex (I never did it, but some couples "married", bought a house and stuff.

I was once attacked by player killers and robbed. I spent two whole weeks just practicing a mind control spell, and when I was attacked again I made the PKs fight and kill each others. I then depredated them of all their possessions - much more than what I had lost. I had an hard on for a month. This was before the famous "An attack on one of us is an attack on ALL of us!" guild declarations, and the following civil wars.

When UO was officially published in Italy, I and my friend did a free "book" for my magazine about our adventures, illustrated with some of the best artists I was in contact with. EA later personally called me to say thank you because the UO sales in Italy spiked overnight. The various chapters were not bylined, and to this day my friend is still pissed by how EVERYBODY assumed how the "How to survive as a rake" chapter was written by her.

Two years ago (you read it right) out of curiosity I connected to the remaining UO servers. My account was still active, and my wizardress was waiting for me in her favourite tavern room in Moonglow. She had waited for me for 10 years.

It was one of the most emotional moments a videogame gave me, ever. Then I checked my equipment, and discovered how, as the last existing member of my guild, I had inherited everything. I went to the bank and... Do you remember that scene in "The Bourne Identity" when Bourne goes to the bank in Switzerland and opens the safe box? Same thing: I had inherited houses, CASTLES, weapons, armors, reagents, millions of gold coins...

I closed the safe box, retuned to the tavern and logged out. I know she is there.

No other MMORPG was like UO. NONE. It opened a genre, became its pinnacle, and that way of playing died with it.

Quote from: The Butcher;618842How so? Because it sounds like a trainwreck by today's standards.

Precisely, but it is when you get off the rails when it is no longer a colour-within-the-lines engineered experience, but a world of unpredictability and hundreds of possibilities. Really: the players engineered a virtual economic collapse, fucked up the faux-renfaire world of Britannia beyond recognition (also, someone killed Lord British within the first few days and got his ass banned), and built themselves a perfectly cool post-apocalyptic game world where things could happen because the players wanted it to. That's a lot more interesting to me than going on raids and questlines that have all been planned for you. Granted, it must have sucked royally for the folks who expected the "Hail to thee, noble Friend!" style of the Ultima series, or just wanted to fuck around baking virtual bread.

Quote from: ReckallStuff

I bow before thine Exploits, noble Friend! :D

See, that's how it is done.

I told you they'd get it funded.

RPGPundit

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618824Did Dancey kill a puppy or something? Why are they so angry at him?

I will say most were not around when he was posting in the Usenet Newsgroup alt.games.rpg... he was touting off that the new d20 system would eliminate all other game systems and that survivors would switch their systems over to it. from that point on I didn't want to have anything to do with him

Quote from: Reckall;618994In UO people role-played, end of the story.

I have been schooled.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;618824Did Dancey kill a puppy or something? Why are they so angry at him?

Kittens actually.
I'm told Dancey owns a stake in some den of iniquity or another.
Daily will his customers fall into onanism, and next thing you know, God's killed a kitten.

I wonder if they feel relieved, or pissed off that it just about scraped through? Maybe some of both.

I think if you just look at the fact they clawed a million and a bit dollars out of 9,000 roleplayers (can't imagine anyone not interested in roleplaying would ever have heard of Pathfinder or Paizo. D&D is a different matter) then it's pretty impressive.

Sure, the hobby may be a fraction of what it was in the early-mid 80s, but there's probably as much or more money in potential sales if you know how to sell an idea, just shared between less people. I know I spend more on RPGs in a year for the last few years then I did in total between the ages of 10-20. Admittedly most of that is on 2nd hand stuff (ebay, forums) or cheap stuff from Amazon.

I wonder what a kickstarter for Frank Mentzer to write his own (OGL based) take on the RC with Elmore/Easley art (or equivalent - are they still alive? Retired?) would raise, with stretch goals being leather covers modules, gazetteers, signed copies, Otus art etc. Or for WOTC to reprint/pdf the BECMI line in entirety as a kickstarter.

Never happen, but you can dream :)

Quote from: APN;619521Or for WOTC to reprint/pdf the BECMI line in entirety as a kickstarter.

If something like this were to actually happen, I suspect this would be taken as proof positive that tabletop rpg games is almost dead as a viable business.  (ie.  A niche business with miniscule or no profit).

:banghead:

Here I'm thinking the opposite - it's already written. Errata it, clean it up, flog thousands of copies... no one knows how many would sell but it would be profitable for a small outlay. Pretty viable.

As opposed to turning out something (4e) that sells in reasonable numbers, had a fortune for the art budget and churned out loads of stuff, for a smaller profit.

For WOTC to do the former (flog old stuff) whilst they are making their new shiny thing (that a lot of people, myself included, aren't interested in and will get none of my money as a result) and not selling their old not shiny any more thing (4e) keeps money coming in and gets money out of old farts who wouldn't touch their new stuff anyway, and keeps Hasbro off their back. I reckon the profit margins on the back catalogue will be far higher than they will be for Next.

RPGs aren't dead as a viable business. The business model is changing though. Printing millions of books and leaving them on shelves hoping they sell is a sure fire way to poverty these days, with less places around to sell those books. PDF, kickstarter, print on demand, subscription model are the ways forward for RPGs, and maybe some others no one has thought of yet.

I think the days of any one or two companies/individuals earning very good money from RPGs are over unless they embrace the new way of doing things. It's a smaller pool to sell to, but there are plenty of fat wallets in that pool. The Kickstarter for Pathfinder Online showed that, as did Traveller and the Fate core thing, and others besides.

Quote from: Melan;618995Precisely, but it is when you get off the rails when it is no longer a colour-within-the-lines engineered experience, but a world of unpredictability and hundreds of possibilities. Really: the players engineered a virtual economic collapse, fucked up the faux-renfaire world of Britannia beyond recognition (also, someone killed Lord British within the first few days and got his ass banned), and built themselves a perfectly cool post-apocalyptic game world where things could happen because the players wanted it to. That's a lot more interesting to me than going on raids and questlines that have all been planned for you. Granted, it must have sucked royally for the folks who expected the "Hail to thee, noble Friend!" style of the Ultima series, or just wanted to fuck around baking virtual bread.

In practice, stuff like this shouldn't be surprising at all.  There's always going to be individuals who figure out every single loophole and/or ways to do things not intended or anticipated by the original designers.

Back in the day, I remember guys who would figure out numerous tricks/loopholes in particular arcade video games and exploiting them to the extreme, where they would end up hogging a particular arcade machine for hours and hours or the entire day on only one quarter.

Years later, there were similar style of hacks in games like Doom.  There was one where one could change some of the badguys into Barney the purple dinosaur.  Dunno if this style of hacking was initially anticipated by the original designers of Doom, but they seemed to have embraced it quickly afterwards.