I won't buy Pathfinder.  It has a page count over 600. 

Uh, no?

I'm the opposite.  I want my games simple and to the point. 

Is there a version or starter set I'm not aware of that is just the core rules? 

Or should I just stick to other OSR games since Pathfinder is just v3.75 anyway?

Well depends. What do you want from Pathfinder?

There is Savage Worlds Pathfinder, which is massively more rules-lite (250 pages, which are themselves smaller, with enlarged text) but its not the D&D 3e experience.

Yeah. I'm one of the few big Savage Worlds rah-rah's around here, and I can confirm that Savage Pathfinder is *radically* lighter by direct comparison.

It scales much higher mechanically - You can play insanely high power-levels of play without many problems. Think Pathfinder 15-lvl+ with no problems (which is really unthinkable). This is due to the fact that Savage Worlds core system supports multiple genres, including Rifts, whose mechanics can be easily ported into Savage Pathfinder without missing a beat. Truthfully, Savage Pathfinder really stands on its own but the versatility of the Savage Worlds Systems makes it shine. Savage Worlds handles grimdark and gritty to demi-god level play without dropping the beat.

It allows for endless tinkering - Pathfinder has tons of options, but they tend to be mechanically all over the map in terms of consistency. The Savage Worlds system is *made* for tinkering. The core mechanics allow you to create, refine, modify without breaking anything. Development and translation of the Pathfinder material is pretty easy once you do a good read-through. What's more, the Savage Pathfinder rules will give you instant ideas about applying it to literally any other form of d20 content without missing a beat.

Dead Cows everywhere - The Sacred Cows of d20 have been killed. Steaks for everyone. Gone are the Linear Fighter/Quadratic Mage, Gone are the weak-ass non-caster options. Gone are the ideas of Armor making your harder to hit. Gone are the ideas of Vancian Magic (but you can replicate them all you want). What you DO get is a mechanical system that allows YOU to do whatever you think "feels" right, with mechanical hand-holds to let you express it. You want Casters that can wear armor? Covered. You want that Gish Fighter/Magic-user? COVERED. You want to be the Social Guy that can actually affect the game - even in combat? Covered. I could spend all day talking about things that have had dozens of pages of debate within D&D that simply are not an issue in Savage Pathfinder. Even better - if you think that Savage Pathfinder has modeled Pathfinder a *little too closely* - then you can modify those rules with the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion, which stands on its own but is fully compatible with Savage Pathfinder.

Let me be clear - Savage Worlds is *not* d20. I wouldn't say it's Rules-Lite either, it's Rules Medium-lite. But I can explain the core system in like 10-minutes to 12-year olds. It's very easy to learn, and very deep in its application. It's not perfect, but it allows you to make it perfect for you and your table without much work at all. I maintained, and have for years, that Savage Worlds does D&D genre fantasy better than D&D (and any of its derivatives) does. Savage Pathfinder only underscores my opinion of that.

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:52:50 AM
Yeah. I'm one of the few big Savage Worlds rah-rah's around here, and I can confirm that Savage Pathfinder is *radically* lighter by direct comparison.

It scales much higher mechanically - You can play insanely high power-levels of play without many problems. Think Pathfinder 15-lvl+ with no problems (which is really unthinkable). This is due to the fact that Savage Worlds core system supports multiple genres, including Rifts, whose mechanics can be easily ported into Savage Pathfinder without missing a beat. Truthfully, Savage Pathfinder really stands on its own but the versatility of the Savage Worlds Systems makes it shine. Savage Worlds handles grimdark and gritty to demi-god level play without dropping the beat.

It allows for endless tinkering - Pathfinder has tons of options, but they tend to be mechanically all over the map in terms of consistency. The Savage Worlds system is *made* for tinkering. The core mechanics allow you to create, refine, modify without breaking anything. Development and translation of the Pathfinder material is pretty easy once you do a good read-through. What's more, the Savage Pathfinder rules will give you instant ideas about applying it to literally any other form of d20 content without missing a beat.

Dead Cows everywhere - The Sacred Cows of d20 have been killed. Steaks for everyone. Gone are the Linear Fighter/Quadratic Mage, Gone are the weak-ass non-caster options. Gone are the ideas of Armor making your harder to hit. Gone are the ideas of Vancian Magic (but you can replicate them all you want). What you DO get is a mechanical system that allows YOU to do whatever you think "feels" right, with mechanical hand-holds to let you express it. You want Casters that can wear armor? Covered. You want that Gish Fighter/Magic-user? COVERED. You want to be the Social Guy that can actually affect the game - even in combat? Covered. I could spend all day talking about things that have had dozens of pages of debate within D&D that simply are not an issue in Savage Pathfinder. Even better - if you think that Savage Pathfinder has modeled Pathfinder a *little too closely* - then you can modify those rules with the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion, which stands on its own but is fully compatible with Savage Pathfinder.

Let me be clear - Savage Worlds is *not* d20. I wouldn't say it's Rules-Lite either, it's Rules Medium-lite. But I can explain the core system in like 10-minutes to 12-year olds. It's very easy to learn, and very deep in its application. It's not perfect, but it allows you to make it perfect for you and your table without much work at all. I maintained, and have for years, that Savage Worlds does D&D genre fantasy better than D&D (and any of its derivatives) does. Savage Pathfinder only underscores my opinion of that.

Is Savage Pathfinder subject to the OGL? Or could they go ORC?

They are not subject to the OGL according to Pinnacle. The last post I saw from them said effectively "The OGL situation does not affect us at all."

I should add -  Pinnacle has their own licensing process for fan-made products (SWAG - Savage Worlds Adventurers Guild) and commercial products for their partners (ACE program).

You can see them here - https://peginc.com/licensing/.

It's a great way for people that want to cut their teeth to get some experience and keep your IP yours. And if you want to go commercial - you can get into their ACE program. Nothing keeps you from selling your IP on other systems either.

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:52:50 AMIt's very easy to learn, and very deep in its application.

The basics are anyway. Once you get into homebrewing, you understand how advanced it really is. 'Dice from d6->d12 in values? Phah, thats so simple!'.

Trust the process! LOL

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 13, 2023, 10:18:50 AM
Re: Pathfinder.  Is there a rules lite version?

Sure Old School Essentials, OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, my Majestic Fantasy RPG. Take your pick and there are dozens of others.

Their Beginner Boxes are very good IME, and rules light. But you only get a few levels.

Quote from: estar on January 13, 2023, 11:43:14 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 13, 2023, 10:18:50 AM
Re: Pathfinder.  Is there a rules lite version?

Sure Old School Essentials, OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, my Majestic Fantasy RPG. Take your pick and there are dozens of others.

Umm, Not quite.

PF2 while similar to other "D&D" games, has very tight leveling math that enforces a very specific feel during play.

Quote from: S'mon on January 13, 2023, 12:01:23 PM
Their Beginner Boxes are very good IME, and rules light. But you only get a few levels.

Therein lies the rub...

Personally, I don't think PF2 is going to get a significant bump in market share off of WotC's current debacle.

PF2 is just too different of an animal to draw ex 5e players en-masse.

Now a proper rules lite version based off their beginner boxes...  But they won't do that.

The fight will be between PF2 and the 5e Clone that emerges in 2024.

Pathfinder's bloat is what is keeping me from considering it.  I'm not reading a Guttenberg bible sized RPG.

Savage Worlds is a game I know, but it didn't click with me.  It took a couple of readings to work out how to play it, and I'm a Palladium vet.  Obtuse rules, poorly explained rules, and contradictions are normal to me.

Yeah, I'm probably going to pass on Pathfinder.  I'm only interested right now because of the ORC license they're making, and the fact they're #2 in the market behind D&D.  Savage Worlds is #3 if I recall. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 13, 2023, 01:03:32 PMSavage Worlds is #3 if I recall.

When did that happen?

Yeah, one of the things always keeping me off PF is the bloat and needless complication. There has to be an easier way to translate your imagination into game rules, short of running DungeonCrawl Risus.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 13, 2023, 10:18:50 AM
I won't buy Pathfinder.  It has a page count over 600. 

Uh, no?

I'm the opposite.  I want my games simple and to the point. 

Is there a version or starter set I'm not aware of that is just the core rules? 

Or should I just stick to other OSR games since Pathfinder is just v3.75 anyway?

Pathfinder 1st Edition, had a very highly regarded Beginner Box; that covered the core 4 classes, about the first 5 levels of play, included nice pregen character sheets and blank character sheets, a rulebook, an adventure book, and a Bunch of 2d Pawns and Bases.  It was a very nice set.  There was a lot of love for that set, and I own a copy of it myself.  I can dig it out, but not at the moment.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition also has a Beginner Box, but i have not delved into 2nd Edition.

Pathfinder 1st Edition strongly resembled D&D 3.5 and the Beginner Box was a simplified introduction to the system.  The final big boss, was a weakened Young Black Dragon; named Blackfang.

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 13, 2023, 02:05:59 PM
Pathfinder 1st Edition, had a very highly regarded Beginner Box; that covered the core 4 classes, about the first 5 levels of play, included nice pregen character sheets and blank character sheets, a rulebook, an adventure book, and a Bunch of 2d Pawns and Bases.  It was a very nice set.  There was a lot of love for that set, and I own a copy of it myself. 

It is/was a real labour of love, far far superior to the PF 1e core books. The GM's book is brilliant & very comprehensive, eg it has full encounter tables by terrain & a nice treasure generation system. I ran an Yggsburgh sandbox campaign using it for months, and it was great. I doubt it's still available - maybe by PDF?