I won't buy Pathfinder. It has a page count over 600.
Uh, no?
I'm the opposite. I want my games simple and to the point.
Is there a version or starter set I'm not aware of that is just the core rules?
Or should I just stick to other OSR games since Pathfinder is just v3.75 anyway?
Well depends. What do you want from Pathfinder?
There is Savage Worlds Pathfinder, which is massively more rules-lite (250 pages, which are themselves smaller, with enlarged text) but its not the D&D 3e experience.
Yeah. I'm one of the few big Savage Worlds rah-rah's around here, and I can confirm that Savage Pathfinder is *radically* lighter by direct comparison.
It scales much higher mechanically - You can play insanely high power-levels of play without many problems. Think Pathfinder 15-lvl+ with no problems (which is really unthinkable). This is due to the fact that Savage Worlds core system supports multiple genres, including Rifts, whose mechanics can be easily ported into Savage Pathfinder without missing a beat. Truthfully, Savage Pathfinder really stands on its own but the versatility of the Savage Worlds Systems makes it shine. Savage Worlds handles grimdark and gritty to demi-god level play without dropping the beat.
It allows for endless tinkering - Pathfinder has tons of options, but they tend to be mechanically all over the map in terms of consistency. The Savage Worlds system is *made* for tinkering. The core mechanics allow you to create, refine, modify without breaking anything. Development and translation of the Pathfinder material is pretty easy once you do a good read-through. What's more, the Savage Pathfinder rules will give you instant ideas about applying it to literally any other form of d20 content without missing a beat.
Dead Cows everywhere - The Sacred Cows of d20 have been killed. Steaks for everyone. Gone are the Linear Fighter/Quadratic Mage, Gone are the weak-ass non-caster options. Gone are the ideas of Armor making your harder to hit. Gone are the ideas of Vancian Magic (but you can replicate them all you want). What you DO get is a mechanical system that allows YOU to do whatever you think "feels" right, with mechanical hand-holds to let you express it. You want Casters that can wear armor? Covered. You want that Gish Fighter/Magic-user? COVERED. You want to be the Social Guy that can actually affect the game - even in combat? Covered. I could spend all day talking about things that have had dozens of pages of debate within D&D that simply are not an issue in Savage Pathfinder. Even better - if you think that Savage Pathfinder has modeled Pathfinder a *little too closely* - then you can modify those rules with the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion, which stands on its own but is fully compatible with Savage Pathfinder.
Let me be clear - Savage Worlds is *not* d20. I wouldn't say it's Rules-Lite either, it's Rules Medium-lite. But I can explain the core system in like 10-minutes to 12-year olds. It's very easy to learn, and very deep in its application. It's not perfect, but it allows you to make it perfect for you and your table without much work at all. I maintained, and have for years, that Savage Worlds does D&D genre fantasy better than D&D (and any of its derivatives) does. Savage Pathfinder only underscores my opinion of that.
Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:52:50 AM
Yeah. I'm one of the few big Savage Worlds rah-rah's around here, and I can confirm that Savage Pathfinder is *radically* lighter by direct comparison.
It scales much higher mechanically - You can play insanely high power-levels of play without many problems. Think Pathfinder 15-lvl+ with no problems (which is really unthinkable). This is due to the fact that Savage Worlds core system supports multiple genres, including Rifts, whose mechanics can be easily ported into Savage Pathfinder without missing a beat. Truthfully, Savage Pathfinder really stands on its own but the versatility of the Savage Worlds Systems makes it shine. Savage Worlds handles grimdark and gritty to demi-god level play without dropping the beat.
It allows for endless tinkering - Pathfinder has tons of options, but they tend to be mechanically all over the map in terms of consistency. The Savage Worlds system is *made* for tinkering. The core mechanics allow you to create, refine, modify without breaking anything. Development and translation of the Pathfinder material is pretty easy once you do a good read-through. What's more, the Savage Pathfinder rules will give you instant ideas about applying it to literally any other form of d20 content without missing a beat.
Dead Cows everywhere - The Sacred Cows of d20 have been killed. Steaks for everyone. Gone are the Linear Fighter/Quadratic Mage, Gone are the weak-ass non-caster options. Gone are the ideas of Armor making your harder to hit. Gone are the ideas of Vancian Magic (but you can replicate them all you want). What you DO get is a mechanical system that allows YOU to do whatever you think "feels" right, with mechanical hand-holds to let you express it. You want Casters that can wear armor? Covered. You want that Gish Fighter/Magic-user? COVERED. You want to be the Social Guy that can actually affect the game - even in combat? Covered. I could spend all day talking about things that have had dozens of pages of debate within D&D that simply are not an issue in Savage Pathfinder. Even better - if you think that Savage Pathfinder has modeled Pathfinder a *little too closely* - then you can modify those rules with the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion, which stands on its own but is fully compatible with Savage Pathfinder.
Let me be clear - Savage Worlds is *not* d20. I wouldn't say it's Rules-Lite either, it's Rules Medium-lite. But I can explain the core system in like 10-minutes to 12-year olds. It's very easy to learn, and very deep in its application. It's not perfect, but it allows you to make it perfect for you and your table without much work at all. I maintained, and have for years, that Savage Worlds does D&D genre fantasy better than D&D (and any of its derivatives) does. Savage Pathfinder only underscores my opinion of that.
Is Savage Pathfinder subject to the OGL? Or could they go ORC?
They are not subject to the OGL according to Pinnacle. The last post I saw from them said effectively "The OGL situation does not affect us at all."
I should add - Pinnacle has their own licensing process for fan-made products (SWAG - Savage Worlds Adventurers Guild) and commercial products for their partners (ACE program).
You can see them here - https://peginc.com/licensing/.
It's a great way for people that want to cut their teeth to get some experience and keep your IP yours. And if you want to go commercial - you can get into their ACE program. Nothing keeps you from selling your IP on other systems either.
Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:52:50 AMIt's very easy to learn, and very deep in its application.
The basics are anyway. Once you get into homebrewing, you understand how advanced it really is. 'Dice from d6->d12 in values? Phah, thats so simple!'.
Trust the process! LOL
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 13, 2023, 10:18:50 AM
Re: Pathfinder. Is there a rules lite version?
Sure Old School Essentials, OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, my Majestic Fantasy RPG. Take your pick and there are dozens of others.
Their Beginner Boxes are very good IME, and rules light. But you only get a few levels.
Quote from: estar on January 13, 2023, 11:43:14 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 13, 2023, 10:18:50 AM
Re: Pathfinder. Is there a rules lite version?
Sure Old School Essentials, OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, my Majestic Fantasy RPG. Take your pick and there are dozens of others.
Umm, Not quite.
PF2 while similar to other "D&D" games, has very tight leveling math that enforces a very specific feel during play.
Quote from: S'mon on January 13, 2023, 12:01:23 PM
Their Beginner Boxes are very good IME, and rules light. But you only get a few levels.
Therein lies the rub...
Personally, I don't think PF2 is going to get a significant bump in market share off of WotC's current debacle.
PF2 is just too different of an animal to draw ex 5e players en-masse.
Now a proper rules lite version based off their beginner boxes... But they won't do that.
The fight will be between PF2 and the 5e Clone that emerges in 2024.
Pathfinder's bloat is what is keeping me from considering it. I'm not reading a Guttenberg bible sized RPG.
Savage Worlds is a game I know, but it didn't click with me. It took a couple of readings to work out how to play it, and I'm a Palladium vet. Obtuse rules, poorly explained rules, and contradictions are normal to me.
Yeah, I'm probably going to pass on Pathfinder. I'm only interested right now because of the ORC license they're making, and the fact they're #2 in the market behind D&D. Savage Worlds is #3 if I recall.
Yeah, one of the things always keeping me off PF is the bloat and needless complication. There has to be an easier way to translate your imagination into game rules, short of running DungeonCrawl Risus.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 13, 2023, 10:18:50 AM
I won't buy Pathfinder. It has a page count over 600.
Uh, no?
I'm the opposite. I want my games simple and to the point.
Is there a version or starter set I'm not aware of that is just the core rules?
Or should I just stick to other OSR games since Pathfinder is just v3.75 anyway?
Pathfinder 1st Edition, had a very highly regarded Beginner Box; that covered the core 4 classes, about the first 5 levels of play, included nice pregen character sheets and blank character sheets, a rulebook, an adventure book, and a Bunch of 2d Pawns and Bases. It was a very nice set. There was a lot of love for that set, and I own a copy of it myself. I can dig it out, but not at the moment.
Pathfinder 2nd Edition also has a Beginner Box, but i have not delved into 2nd Edition.
Pathfinder 1st Edition strongly resembled D&D 3.5 and the Beginner Box was a simplified introduction to the system. The final big boss, was a weakened Young Black Dragon; named Blackfang.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 13, 2023, 02:05:59 PM
Pathfinder 1st Edition, had a very highly regarded Beginner Box; that covered the core 4 classes, about the first 5 levels of play, included nice pregen character sheets and blank character sheets, a rulebook, an adventure book, and a Bunch of 2d Pawns and Bases. It was a very nice set. There was a lot of love for that set, and I own a copy of it myself.
It is/was a real labour of love, far far superior to the PF 1e core books. The GM's book is brilliant & very comprehensive, eg it has full encounter tables by terrain & a nice treasure generation system. I ran an Yggsburgh sandbox campaign using it for months, and it was great. I doubt it's still available - maybe by PDF?
Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:52:50 AM
Yeah. I'm one of the few big Savage Worlds rah-rah's around here, and I can confirm that Savage Pathfinder is *radically* lighter by direct comparison.
I'm not a fan of supporting Paizo (red list and all), but Pinnacle I don't find objectionable. Is Savage Worlds Pathfinder substantially better and different than Savage Worlds generally?
Either way your post really points out a lot of things I'm looking for, so I'm definitely interested.
Quote from: Venka on January 13, 2023, 03:03:20 PM
I'm not a fan of supporting Paizo (red list and all), but Pinnacle I don't find objectionable. Is Savage Worlds Pathfinder substantially better and different than Savage Worlds generally?
Depending on what you dislike about Savage Worlds I will argue yes ir no.
Quote from: Venka on January 13, 2023, 03:03:20 PM
Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:52:50 AM
Yeah. I'm one of the few big Savage Worlds rah-rah's around here, and I can confirm that Savage Pathfinder is *radically* lighter by direct comparison.
I'm not a fan of supporting Paizo (red list and all), but Pinnacle I don't find objectionable. Is Savage Worlds Pathfinder substantially better and different than Savage Worlds generally?
Either way your post really points out a lot of things I'm looking for, so I'm definitely interested.
Okay the quick n' dirty.
The current edition of Savage Worlds - is SWADE (Savage Worlds Adventurers Edition) is what you want. It covers all the core mechanics and rules. You could basically run nearly any kind of game in any genre just with this. Core Rule Book
(https://peginc.com/store/savage-worlds-adventure-edition-core-rules-pdf-swade/) They're flying off the shelves, but they're supposed to be replenishing them soon.
Savage Worlds Pathfinder Edition - Is the SWADE Corebook + Pathfinder translated directly into it. SWPF Core Rules (https://peginc.com/store/pathfinder-for-savage-worlds-core-rules/). You don't *need* the SWADE Core for Pathfinder, but there are tidbits I find handy. For example the SWADE Core book covers blackpowder and energy weapons and stuff like that if you care. But it's not necessary if all you wanna do is run straight SWPathfinder.
Big changes between them: Class Edges. In Savage Worlds there are no "classes", instead you get big "abilities" that you purchase as you advance with XP. So imagine D&D without dead-levels and nickle-and-dime bullshit abilities, but you get only the BIG BEEFY stuff - think Feats but way more impactful, in Savage Worlds they're called "Edges". That's effectively how you build your character in Savage Worlds. All the little stuff is already factored into your regular skills/stats.
Class Edges in SWPathfinder are powerful Edges that combine a lot of abilities into a singular package that represent the Pathfinder Classes. You can still Multi-class, you can even not take any of them and get some other bonuses. They're optional. But they did a great job in translating them over into Savage World, enough so that if you play Pathfinder you'll recognize it fairly fast. The key is in actual play - PC's are much more high-octane, and combat is way more cinematic because it goes pretty fast. PC's can take on a *lot* more in an encounter than you'd find in your typical Pathfinder game at low level.
Magic is different too. No Vancian magic, instead you get powers like Bolt, or Blast, and a bunch of others you'd instantly recognize - like Teleport etc. The catch in Savage Worlds is you assign "trappings" to your spell so it's recognizable and has environmental effects. So you might have Blast and the Trapping is (Fire - and you can describe it however you want, but it's fire.) So Venka's Fire Blast would have special effects against anything that should common-sense be affected by fire adversely, on top of the damage. You also have modifiers you can add to your spells which cost extra spellpoints. Basically all the meta-magic Feats in Pathfinder are automatic to all casters (but you gotta pay for it and cast it as a skill check).
They've got a little PDF to show you how to build all your Vancian spell versions, but whatever, it's so much quicker and cleaner to just use the onboard system. And it covers Psionics, Weird Science, and every school of magic in D&D.
Sorcerers are WAY cooler.
If you have any specific examples you'd like to see I can probably whip up a good one in fairly short order.
Also - there is a Pathfinder Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide. The APG is about to drop in book form (it might be out already, I have the PDFs). And there are two full Pathfinder AP's - Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne which are six-books each.
Lastly - as for whether it's *better* than the Core SWADE rules? I think after having run it for a good bit, I'd say it does D&D-style Fantasy very well. But now that the Savage World's Fantasy Companion has dropped, I think my next go-round will be SWADE Core+Fantasy Companion and that's it. I'll cherry pick stuff out of SWPathfinder, there's a lot of love in there.
Another thing to consider is that *all* the SWADE products are 99% compatible. And that last 1% is just setting differences that you can *easily* tweak to make useful. The Horror Companion is about to drop (I just got my alpha-PDF and I'm already loving it). The Superhero Companion has dropped (which is really powerful - but uses the same core mechanics, but don't let that scare you, the system scales internally extremely well). And of course there is Savage Rifts... which is *extremely* powerful and still can use all the stuff from all the other SWADE books and 3rd party SWADE material with a few tweaks, and vice versa. The system, once you read it, is very very good and bending to your needs. High or low powered, and everything in-between. I mean... it can handle Rifts with fidelity. That should say a lot right there.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 13, 2023, 10:18:50 AM
I won't buy Pathfinder. It has a page count over 600.
Uh, no?
I'm the opposite. I want my games simple and to the point.
Is there a version or starter set I'm not aware of that is just the core rules?
Or should I just stick to other OSR games since Pathfinder is just v3.75 anyway?
Being a rules-light guy, I totally get it. Having to read 600 pages before a game would be the ultimate nope for me.
This shit right here is FREE: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/303380/Crimson-Dragon-Slayer-D20-Revised
;)
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 13, 2023, 10:18:50 AM
Or should I just stick to other OSR games since Pathfinder is just v3.75 anyway?
Apparently PF2e is quite different, but on the topic of it being D&D 3.75, if you want a rules light version, the obvious choice would be Microlite20. I don't know if anyone still plays it and what kind of longevity it has, but it is rules light Pathfinder in all but name.
If you're only interested because of the ORC license though, there will probably be other systems coming out with it as well. BRP is a possiblity, and would probably be closer to Palladium.
I dunno about Pathfinder <> D&D. The SW Pathfinder book has very specific Pathfinder concepts in it that to me, are *not* good. Things like Clerics are the ULTIMATE HEALBOTS.
If you're wanting to play *Pathinder* specifically. Then I'd recommend Savage Worlds Pathfinder, because that's exactly what it is. It's not D&D/OSR with the Pathfinder name slapped on it. Otherwise, by all means - play OSR. OSR systems on all fronts are vastly lighter than Pathfinder 1e or 2e for that matter.
The advantage of Savage Worlds Pathfinder is
1) it's Pathfinder in direct translation of theme and intent. Including the warts (imo).
2) You can *easily* remove, change, modify any aspect of the Pathfinder specific "issues" with very very little effort.
3) You get to be introduced to Savage Worlds which is a fantastic system and insanely versatile and easy to run, yet deep in its mechanical expression and scale. Which means all of their content becomes wide open to you, based on your interests.
If you want to stay in the d20-side of gaming, I'd definitely consider an OSR ruleset. Go with Venger - he's Mos Eisley family.
Quote from: S'mon on January 13, 2023, 02:26:17 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 13, 2023, 02:05:59 PM
Pathfinder 1st Edition, had a very highly regarded Beginner Box; that covered the core 4 classes, about the first 5 levels of play, included nice pregen character sheets and blank character sheets, a rulebook, an adventure book, and a Bunch of 2d Pawns and Bases. It was a very nice set. There was a lot of love for that set, and I own a copy of it myself.
It is/was a real labour of love, far far superior to the PF 1e core books. The GM's book is brilliant & very comprehensive, eg it has full encounter tables by terrain & a nice treasure generation system. I ran an Yggsburgh sandbox campaign using it for months, and it was great. I doubt it's still available - maybe by PDF?
Is this it?
https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Beginner-Box/dp/1601256302/ref=sr_1_5?crid=23ALMPD4MLV8I&keywords=pathfinder+starter&qid=1673752887&sprefix=pathfinder+starter%2Caps%2C281&sr=8-5
Quote from: Aglondir on January 14, 2023, 10:28:25 PM
Quote from: S'mon on January 13, 2023, 02:26:17 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 13, 2023, 02:05:59 PM
Pathfinder 1st Edition, had a very highly regarded Beginner Box; that covered the core 4 classes, about the first 5 levels of play, included nice pregen character sheets and blank character sheets, a rulebook, an adventure book, and a Bunch of 2d Pawns and Bases. It was a very nice set. There was a lot of love for that set, and I own a copy of it myself.
It is/was a real labour of love, far far superior to the PF 1e core books. The GM's book is brilliant & very comprehensive, eg it has full encounter tables by terrain & a nice treasure generation system. I ran an Yggsburgh sandbox campaign using it for months, and it was great. I doubt it's still available - maybe by PDF?
Is this it?
https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Beginner-Box/dp/1601256302/ref=sr_1_5?crid=23ALMPD4MLV8I&keywords=pathfinder+starter&qid=1673752887&sprefix=pathfinder+starter%2Caps%2C281&sr=8-5
Yes. That is the PF 1st Edition, Beginner's Box. It is far better, than the D&D 5E boxed sets; even just from a value standpoint. All those 2d Pawns, and also a 2 sided game mat.
Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:52:50 AM
Yeah. I'm one of the few big Savage Worlds rah-rah's around here, and I can confirm that Savage Pathfinder is *radically* lighter by direct comparison.
It scales much higher mechanically - You can play insanely high power-levels of play without many problems. Think Pathfinder 15-lvl+ with no problems (which is really unthinkable). This is due to the fact that Savage Worlds core system supports multiple genres, including Rifts, whose mechanics can be easily ported into Savage Pathfinder without missing a beat. Truthfully, Savage Pathfinder really stands on its own but the versatility of the Savage Worlds Systems makes it shine. Savage Worlds handles grimdark and gritty to demi-god level play without dropping the beat.
It allows for endless tinkering - Pathfinder has tons of options, but they tend to be mechanically all over the map in terms of consistency. The Savage Worlds system is *made* for tinkering. The core mechanics allow you to create, refine, modify without breaking anything. Development and translation of the Pathfinder material is pretty easy once you do a good read-through. What's more, the Savage Pathfinder rules will give you instant ideas about applying it to literally any other form of d20 content without missing a beat.
Dead Cows everywhere - The Sacred Cows of d20 have been killed. Steaks for everyone. Gone are the Linear Fighter/Quadratic Mage, Gone are the weak-ass non-caster options. Gone are the ideas of Armor making your harder to hit. Gone are the ideas of Vancian Magic (but you can replicate them all you want). What you DO get is a mechanical system that allows YOU to do whatever you think "feels" right, with mechanical hand-holds to let you express it. You want Casters that can wear armor? Covered. You want that Gish Fighter/Magic-user? COVERED. You want to be the Social Guy that can actually affect the game - even in combat? Covered. I could spend all day talking about things that have had dozens of pages of debate within D&D that simply are not an issue in Savage Pathfinder. Even better - if you think that Savage Pathfinder has modeled Pathfinder a *little too closely* - then you can modify those rules with the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion, which stands on its own but is fully compatible with Savage Pathfinder.
Let me be clear - Savage Worlds is *not* d20. I wouldn't say it's Rules-Lite either, it's Rules Medium-lite. But I can explain the core system in like 10-minutes to 12-year olds. It's very easy to learn, and very deep in its application. It's not perfect, but it allows you to make it perfect for you and your table without much work at all. I maintained, and have for years, that Savage Worlds does D&D genre fantasy better than D&D (and any of its derivatives) does. Savage Pathfinder only underscores my opinion of that.
I'll be the second rah-rah for SW. It does D&D better than D&D with the Fantasy Companion and core book. it's Pathfinder is better than Pathfinder. And I'm a big fan of the Primeval Thule setting as well. Ditto Rifts (which wasn't hard to best imo as Kevin's rules system is meh).
SWADE, FC, and PT are pretty much all I want out of them personally. But the PF Bestiary is a nice add.
Quote from: Aglondir on January 14, 2023, 10:28:25 PM
Quote from: S'mon on January 13, 2023, 02:26:17 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 13, 2023, 02:05:59 PM
Pathfinder 1st Edition, had a very highly regarded Beginner Box; that covered the core 4 classes, about the first 5 levels of play, included nice pregen character sheets and blank character sheets, a rulebook, an adventure book, and a Bunch of 2d Pawns and Bases. It was a very nice set. There was a lot of love for that set, and I own a copy of it myself.
It is/was a real labour of love, far far superior to the PF 1e core books. The GM's book is brilliant & very comprehensive, eg it has full encounter tables by terrain & a nice treasure generation system. I ran an Yggsburgh sandbox campaign using it for months, and it was great. I doubt it's still available - maybe by PDF?
Is this it?
https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Beginner-Box/dp/1601256302/ref=sr_1_5?crid=23ALMPD4MLV8I&keywords=pathfinder+starter&qid=1673752887&sprefix=pathfinder+starter%2Caps%2C281&sr=8-5
Yup! $50 doesn't look too bad, either.
Honestly to me, Pathfinder pretty much is its ruleset. It's one of those games you go to specifically because you want complex character building with lots of customization. I'm not an expert on the Golarion setting, but it just seems like another generic elves-dwarves-and-wizards fantasy world. In fairness, the core mechanics of Pathfinder 1e aren't actually all that complicated --it's just the D20 system-- but there's a lot of subrules and options stacked on top of them. It's not actually all that hard a game to learn to play, but the complexity comes in with all the feats and abilities to keep in mind for each character.
Rules-lite is a bit of a fuzzy term, but if you want rules lite in the sense of something like EZd6 or Barbarians of Lemuria, then yeah, you should probably just skip Pathfinder entirely.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 13, 2023, 10:18:50 AM
I won't buy Pathfinder. It has a page count over 600.
Uh, no?
I'm the opposite. I want my games simple and to the point.
Is there a version or starter set I'm not aware of that is just the core rules?
Or should I just stick to other OSR games since Pathfinder is just v3.75 anyway?
Well, there's PathfinderLite (Microlite based):
https://sites.google.com/site/microlited20/pathfinderlite (https://sites.google.com/site/microlited20/pathfinderlite)