This is true Tommy. I've seen WAY worse arguments over way more trivial tidbits than what edition is the best.

Quote from: Nightfall;391514Mist,

So you're saying the game that WotC produces or even WW currently are better because they lack better customer input?

No, that's not at all what he's saying. Additionally, I find it difficult to understand how anybody could have interpreted it that way.

Quote from: VictorC;391850No, that's not at all what he's saying. Additionally, I find it difficult to understand how anybody could have interpreted it that way.

Indeed, customer input and customer relations are two entirely different and unrelated things.

Quote from: Mistwell;391454Why do you care about goodwill, attitude, and customer relations, for an RPG?

Is OD&D a worse game because it has no company behind it to offer goodwill, attitude, or customer relations at all, for example?

I can see goodwill, attitude, and customer relations being important to you in general as someone who works at a game store.  But, for deciding which game to play? Shouldn't that be based on the content of the game, not the good feelings you get from the game producer?

Well it's either one of two things: either there's no such thing as an RPG or Gaming community, and it's all about just picking up a can of soda in a store, in which case, who gives a fuck about people making games, the sorts of games they create, and how they're trying to sell them, right?

OR

There is such a thing as a gaming community, a network of individuals from the people who socialize around a gaming table to an international community at large, in which case the people making games, the sorts of games they create, and the public relations they entertain to sell and develop these games do matter to the community at large.

Now, I, personally, believe in the second possibility. There is a gaming community, there are people with ethics, morals, ideas creating certain games, and selling them in some ways or others, and all these things matter to me. I am buying products of our imaginations, role playing games, which I love. Not soda at the local 7-11. I will give my money to people I want to reward. I'm not forcing anybody to make my personal choice, but I do vote with my dollars for products and individuals I want to support, while not giving a dime to those I do not want to support. It's the ethical thing to do, to me, myself, and I concur.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;391851Indeed, customer input and customer relations are two entirely different and unrelated things.

When it comes to the bottom line, customer input and customer relations are the same thing.

Sure... you can scare or otherwise bully your customer into buying your product(s), however that will only last until something better comes along.

On the other hand, if you have a happy customer, something better can come along, and your customer will totally ignore it in favor of your older products because the customer feels his/her input is both valued and appreciated whereas with the new products there is no perceived value because of the lack of a relationship.

Unfortunately, many companies have implemented predatory practices on account of simple greed. They won't last. Historically they haven't. Periodically the markets shakes such busineses loose and they collapse under the weight of their lack of ethics. We are all overdue for a major shakeout.

Can't say I'll feel sorry for the companies that don't understand.

P.S. I picked up the Pathfinder GameMastery Guide over the weekend. It totally rocks!

Quote from: GameDaddy;391876On the other hand, if you have a happy customer, something better can come along, and your customer will totally ignore it in favor of your older products because the customer feels his/her input is both valued and appreciated whereas with the new products there is no perceived value because of the lack of a relationship.

This is the problem, people in this case aren't judging the products on what they should be judged on. How good it is and is instead judging it on how warm and fuzzy the company selling it makes them feel.

Lets say, I'm playing Fatal, because the company that puts it out just makes me feel all warm and cozy. Oh, they listen to what I have to say and they treat me nice. So I should keep playing it rather than... well anything?

Customer service/relations is more of an icing on the cake, or a cherry on the sundae if you prefer.

I will never base a decision of whether or not to play a game on the PR, I'll base it on the merits of the game.

Quote from: GameDaddy;391876P.S. I picked up the Pathfinder GameMastery Guide over the weekend. It totally rocks!

Did the same at Drexoll Games not two days ago! Just had the time to read a few pages so far. Except a rather annoying amount of "the DM tells magnificent stories and weaves storylines" bullshit ( ), it looks pretty good, indeed.

A loyal, long-term customer is worth their weight in gold. They are the ambassadors of your product. They will spread it's virtues to others *for free*. But if you sour that relationship, they will become your arch-enemy. Look at the latest WotC edition wars.

How many times have we seen that in the history of gaming companies? I think it occurs far more often than in industries that deal in less creative and personal products then role-playing games. The closest thing I can think of is fans of authors that write fiction. They will move heaven and earth for you... but don't piss them off...

Selling role-playing games is not like selling a hammer. The relationship between the creator and the buyer is far more intimate.

Though I can recommend some really good LED flashlights and knives...

Quote from: Tetsubo;391912A loyal, long-term customer is worth their weight in gold. They are the ambassadors of your product. They will spread it's virtues to others *for free*. But if you sour that relationship, they will become your arch-enemy. Look at the latest WotC edition wars.

It sure sounds good and there a lot of people who for various reasons dislike 4e. I will additionally submit that many of the ways WotC handles things aren't the best and sometimes down right bad.

However, they're the biggest and they sell the most, Paizo (who supposedly has good customer service) can't even dream to come close.

So while customer service/relations does factor in, it in no way should be considered a make or break factor.

The only time I contacted any company's customer service was several years ago, it was Fantasy Flight Games. They treated me like shit. But you know what, Midnight is (or was) ballin. I continue to play it despite being written off by dicks.

I would be a complete and total idiot to stop playing a game that I enjoy because some schmo needs to work on his attitude.

I would also be a complete and total idiot to play a game that I didn't enjoy simply because someone was nice to me and/or listened to something I had to say about said unfun game.

So by all means pretend that we're not buying products for their usefulness to us. You may, continue to buy product because a faceless name was polite to you.

Quote from: VictorC;391918It sure sounds good and there a lot of people who for various reasons dislike 4e. I will additionally submit that many of the ways WotC handles things aren't the best and sometimes down right bad.

However, they're the biggest and they sell the most, Paizo (who supposedly has good customer service) can't even dream to come close.

So while customer service/relations does factor in, it in no way should be considered a make or break factor.

The only time I contacted any company's customer service was several years ago, it was Fantasy Flight Games. They treated me like shit. But you know what, Midnight is (or was) ballin. I continue to play it despite being written off by dicks.

I would be a complete and total idiot to stop playing a game that I enjoy because some schmo needs to work on his attitude.

I would also be a complete and total idiot to play a game that I didn't enjoy simply because someone was nice to me and/or listened to something I had to say about said unfun game.

So by all means pretend that we're not buying products for their usefulness to us. You may, continue to buy product because a faceless name was polite to you.

I have never encountered a company that produced a bad product but where really pleasant to deal with. You seem to have had a different experience. But I have encountered, countless times, a company that treated their customers like crap even though they made a nice widget. I tend to not endorse their widget after that experience. How I am treated does in fact effect my opinion of a company and their product.

Quote from: VictorC;391918However, [WotC are] the biggest and they sell the most, Paizo (...) can't even dream to come close.

That's a myth. A myth that probably translates a reality right now, but a myth nonetheless.

Quote from: Benoist;391922That's a myth. A myth that probably translates a reality right now, but a myth nonetheless.

Myths can last a long time.

Quote from: ggroy;391924Myths can last a long time.

Absolutely. I agree. The notion that somehow nobody ever can ever dream of selling like WotC does is a myth nonetheless.

Companies rise and fall. Markets change. We've had a leader of the hobby in TSR, which then was bought by WotC. It can happen again. And believe it or not, but just because D&D is D&D doesn't mean this particular game is bound to remain the leader of the hobby forever and ever. Amen. Period. Slash. End of story. Just because it didn't happen yet doesn't mean it can't, ever.

Quote from: Benoist;391926Absolutely. I agree. The notion that somehow nobody ever can ever dream of selling like WotC does is a myth nonetheless.

Companies rise and fall. Markets change. We've had a leader of the hobby in TSR, which then was bought by WotC. It can happen again. And believe it or not, but just because D&D is D&D doesn't mean this particular game is bound to remain the leader of the hobby forever and ever. Amen. Period. Slash. End of story. Just because it didn't happen yet doesn't mean it can't, ever.

If it was going to happen because of 4E, it would have done so already in a manner we could see.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;391927If it was going to happen because of 4E, it would have done so already in a manner we could see.

What would be an obvious sign of this happening?

(ie.  Besides Hasbro/WotC selling off the D&D intellectual property or taking D&D off the market).