Just a news story that popped up on my feed today. The justification that Drow are too closely tied to D&D, and therefore are a bit risky in the post-OGL era, makes sense. However, it also seems like a convenient excuse for Paizo to save themselves some SJW related headaches in the future.
https://www.wargamer.com/pathfinder/drow-retcon
I suspect they would have done it anyway considering how pro-scold Paizo is.
I never liked Pathfinder anyway.
Pity. This feels like a capitulation to WotC's aim to revoke things like the SRDs. As well as pointless in the face of WotC making 5e Creative Commons or whatever.
The drow are awesome. Their whole society and religion in the forgotten realms is a pretty cool and unique concept. I don't know much of them in Pathfinder, but I suspect a woke attitude in corporate is causing their players to miss out on some really interesting plotlines, NPCs, and PC character openings.
Quote from: KindaMeh on June 02, 2023, 09:55:58 PM
Pity. This feels like a capitulation to WotC's aim to revoke things like the SRDs. As well as pointless in the face of WotC making 5e Creative Commons or whatever.
The drow are awesome. Their whole society and religion in the forgotten realms is a pretty cool and unique concept. I don't know much of them in Pathfinder, but I suspect a woke attitude in corporate is causing their players to miss out on some really interesting plotlines, NPCs, and PC character openings.
CC By, which means you still have to give them free publicity and promote their network effect.
Gee, in "GURPS' it is much simpler - they are simply called the "Dark Elves", or if I'm being sarcastic - Those really Grumpy Elves". That easily avoids the issue of a copyrighted name, or players obsessed with reading paperbacks by a certAin author.
-Ed C.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2i55t0jqa1r011tlo1_500.gif)
Meh.
I dropped the OGL for my system probably 5 years ago, requiring me to go back to original sources or my creativity for its magic system and monsters, and I'd say it's definitely stronger for not being just another D&D clone.
Frankly, I don't need Drow in my setting because the default elves are caste-based religious totalitarians (with all non-elves at the bottom and only their religion allowed, which teaches its a sin for non-elves to worship the elven gods). Basically the capricious and vain creatures from a lot of the folklore.
PC elves are all members of the Elven "dark caste"; unpersons who refuse to conform to their place in elven society and who need to flee the elven lands lest they be killed by the Elven Inquisition and their Wild Hunts in order to "recycle" their souls back into their proper place in elven society (elves reincarnate).
Basically I don't need the concept of Drow for my setting because I already have evil elves (which I wouldn't have if I hadn't decided to drop the OGL).
So, I'm okay with WotC having their "win" of people continuing to abandon its OGL/SRD because D&D's OGL/SRD has been an anchor around the neck of creativity in the fantasy ttrpg genre for over two decades now... it's time the fantasy genre to grow past its tired ideas (made even more drab as the old lore is memory-holed in favor of woke agitprop).
Can't say I'm surprised.
I have always found the Drow to have really odd flavor, even by D&D race standards. They are easily one of the weakest executions of the dark elf trope I've ever seen, with their only redeeming trait being they look better than most other dark elves on artwork. But even that's a lie because according to the lore, Drow get sunburns, so if the lighting is strong enough to actually see the character, their skin should be peeling.
Pathfinder will probably replace it with their own take, which I can scarcely imagine going worse.
Why is anyone surprised by this? Paizo is leaving the OGL. WotC's antics pretty much pissed in the pool for them (and anyone else).
Quote from: Fheredin on June 03, 2023, 08:15:27 AM
Pathfinder will probably replace it with their own take, which I can scarcely imagine going worse.
Have you not seen Paizo lately, I'm expecting rainbow elves.
Quote from: Skullking on June 03, 2023, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: Fheredin on June 03, 2023, 08:15:27 AM
Pathfinder will probably replace it with their own take, which I can scarcely imagine going worse.
Have you not seen Paizo lately, I'm expecting rainbow elves.
As evil elves?
Quote from: Skullking on June 03, 2023, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: Fheredin on June 03, 2023, 08:15:27 AM
Pathfinder will probably replace it with their own take, which I can scarcely imagine going worse.
Have you not seen Paizo lately, I'm expecting rainbow elves.
To be honest? No, I haven't. I don't bother with obvious woke garbage so have no clue how much further up their own rectum they've managed to crawl.
In my experience their lore has always D&D with 20% more woke. Now that WotC is close to 100% woke saturation, their lore is basically identical. All races are genderfluid oppressed by the unseen cishetwhitepatriarchy who rules all their prom hosting coffee shop kingdoms.
Quote from: Chris24601 on June 03, 2023, 07:26:22 AM
Meh.
I dropped the OGL for my system probably 5 years ago, requiring me to go back to original sources or my creativity for its magic system and monsters, and I'd say it's definitely stronger for not being just another D&D clone.
Frankly, I don't need Drow in my setting because the default elves are caste-based religious totalitarians (with all non-elves at the bottom and only their religion allowed, which teaches its a sin for non-elves to worship the elven gods). Basically the capricious and vain creatures from a lot of the folklore.
PC elves are all members of the Elven "dark caste"; unpersons who refuse to conform to their place in elven society and who need to flee the elven lands lest they be killed by the Elven Inquisition and their Wild Hunts in order to "recycle" their souls back into their proper place in elven society (elves reincarnate).
Basically I don't need the concept of Drow for my setting because I already have evil elves (which I wouldn't have if I hadn't decided to drop the OGL).
So, I'm okay with WotC having their "win" of people continuing to abandon its OGL/SRD because D&D's OGL/SRD has been an anchor around the neck of creativity in the fantasy ttrpg genre for over two decades now... it's time the fantasy genre to grow past its tired ideas (made even more drab as the old lore is memory-holed in favor of woke agitprop).
Sounds cool. Reminds me of The Spire (https://rowanrookanddecard.com/spire-rpg/) take on elves.
Quote from: Koltar on June 02, 2023, 11:55:02 PM
Gee, in "GURPS' it is much simpler - they are simply called the "Dark Elves", or if I'm being sarcastic - Those really Grumpy Elves". That easily avoids the issue of a copyrighted name, or players obsessed with reading paperbacks by a certAin author.
-Ed C.
The Dark Elves of Yrth in GURPS Banestorm are just ordinary elves that are racist against humans.
Quote from: Fheredin on June 03, 2023, 08:15:27 AM
I have always found the Drow to have really odd flavor, even by D&D race standards. They are easily one of the weakest executions of the dark elf trope I've ever seen,
They might not be to your particular taste, but saying they're a weak concept is just ridiculous. A Matriarchal system, ran by a female Priestess class, under the sway of an evil Spider-Goddess. It has some unique concepts, and some cool features. Fully thought out and crystalized.
You'd be on stronger ground talking about regular D&D Elves and Dwarves being too derivative of Tolkien, whereas at least the Drow have some originality.
I think Drow are fun, but yeah this is absolutely dumpable. Not everything needs to look like D&D.
Githyanki > Drow.
(https://us.v-cdn.net/5022456/uploads/editor/0s/ahyj18m88uwe.png)
Nuff Said
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 03, 2023, 09:29:57 AM
Why is anyone surprised by this? Paizo is leaving the OGL. WotC's antics pretty much pissed in the pool for them (and anyone else).
It would be an non-issue except for all their so called we " can't use Drow because of the OGL" thru are keeping a bunch of OGL content just re-skinning and filing off the serial numbers off. Yet somehow they can't do it with the Drow. It's Paizo being cowards and lacking the stones just admit that they are to Woke for the Drow.
Quote from: Skullking on June 03, 2023, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: Fheredin on June 03, 2023, 08:15:27 AM
Pathfinder will probably replace it with their own take, which I can scarcely imagine going worse.
Have you not seen Paizo lately, I'm expecting rainbow elves.
That would be the most glorious mistake ever made. I know quite a few edgelord players who would
love to be rainbow elves going on a quest for the Hentainomicon.
Quote from: Abraxus on June 03, 2023, 09:07:56 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 03, 2023, 09:29:57 AM
Why is anyone surprised by this? Paizo is leaving the OGL. WotC's antics pretty much pissed in the pool for them (and anyone else).
It would be an non-issue except for all their so called we " can't use Drow because of the OGL" thru are keeping a bunch of OGL content just re-skinning and filing off the serial numbers off. Yet somehow they can't do it with the Drow. It's Paizo being cowards and lacking the stones just admit that they are to Woke for the Drow.
Anything specific? Because they seem to be doing some pretty heavy jettisoning of a LOT of things.
Like alignment. Spell schools. Aasimar/tiefling (though those are getting rolled into a single heritage, nephilim).
Quote from: Koltar on June 02, 2023, 11:55:02 PM
Gee, in "GURPS' it is much simpler - they are simply called the "Dark Elves", or if I'm being sarcastic - Those really Grumpy Elves". That easily avoids the issue of a copyrighted name, or players obsessed with reading paperbacks by a certAin author.
-Ed C.
Is it copyrighted, though? I was under the impression that "drow" is merely a variant of "trow," which itself is a corruption of "troll" you find in Norse-influenced areas of Scotland like Orkney.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 03, 2023, 08:34:46 PM
(https://us.v-cdn.net/5022456/uploads/editor/0s/ahyj18m88uwe.png)
Nuff Said
All I see in that pic is a couple of white chicks acting like they're constipated. Where are the Dark Elves?
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4SZGoCnf448/VZf1NBkzM2I/AAAAAAAAEjA/0JcxggoeHk4/s1600/242lolth.jpg)
On topic, I don't play Pathfinder and I'm unlikely ever to, so I don't care. But this comes off lazy AF. And for all the people speculating on stuff already covered by the article posted in the OP, they already said that they're replacing drow with snake men or something completely unrelated to elves. Dark Elves are being wiped out from Pathfinder altogether.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 04, 2023, 12:10:48 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on June 03, 2023, 09:07:56 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 03, 2023, 09:29:57 AM
Why is anyone surprised by this? Paizo is leaving the OGL. WotC's antics pretty much pissed in the pool for them (and anyone else).
It would be an non-issue except for all their so called we " can't use Drow because of the OGL" thru are keeping a bunch of OGL content just re-skinning and filing off the serial numbers off. Yet somehow they can't do it with the Drow. It's Paizo being cowards and lacking the stones just admit that they are to Woke for the Drow.
Anything specific? Because they seem to be doing some pretty heavy jettisoning of a LOT of things.
Like alignment. Spell schools. Aasimar/tiefling (though those are getting rolled into a single heritage, nephilim).
I actually like the idea of calling half-celestials "Nephilim". It kinda fits and uses a term form actual RL myth rather than silly made up words.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:11:34 AM
All I see in that pic is a couple of white chicks acting like they're constipated. Where are the Dark Elves?
1. Dark Elves are white (except in D&D).
2. It's the constipation that makes them so angry.
Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 08:43:09 AM
1. Dark Elves are white (except in D&D).
It's almost like they're (bile rises in throat) based on European folklore (begins to vomit at the toxicity.)
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:11:34 AM
All I see in that pic is a couple of white chicks acting like they're constipated. Where are the Dark Elves?
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4SZGoCnf448/VZf1NBkzM2I/AAAAAAAAEjA/0JcxggoeHk4/s1600/242lolth.jpg)
All I see are 3 African-American underwear models, where are the Dark Elves?
Quote from: Grognard GM on June 04, 2023, 08:46:20 AM
Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 08:43:09 AM
1. Dark Elves are white (except in D&D).
It's almost like they're (bile rises in throat) based on European folklore (begins to vomit at the toxicity.)
Regular Dark Elves as you might see in Fighting Fantasy or Warhammer are actually way closer to folklore elves than are the Tolkienesque 'nice' elves.
I think Gygax's Drow are more based on his divorce experience than anything else really. ;D
Quote from: Grognard GM on June 04, 2023, 08:46:20 AM
Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 08:43:09 AM
1. Dark Elves are white (except in D&D).
It's almost like they're (bile rises in throat) based on European folklore (begins to vomit at the toxicity.)
That Warhammer pic seems based on the look of '80s British punk/New Romantic singers like Toyah, Siouxsie Sue, Kate Bush et al.
Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 08:43:09 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:11:34 AM
All I see in that pic is a couple of white chicks acting like they're constipated. Where are the Dark Elves?
1. Dark Elves are white (except in D&D).
2. It's the constipation that makes them so angry.
Aren't dark elves in Norse mythology described as "Swarthy", though?
Though, I suppose what exactly constitutes "swarthy" skin can vary a lot, and potentially encompass tanned "white".
Quote from: Grognard GM on June 04, 2023, 08:48:08 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:11:34 AM
All I see in that pic is a couple of white chicks acting like they're constipated. Where are the Dark Elves?
*snip pic of real dark elves*
All I see are 3 African-American underwear models, where are the Dark Elves?
How do you know that they were American? How do you know that they weren't Kenyan or something? Why are you denying existence of marginalized people of colour from around the globe, you white devil oppressor? Your privilege is showing! >:(
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 09:12:17 AM
Aren't dark elves in Norse mythology described as "Swarthy", though?
Though, I suppose what exactly constitutes "swarthy" skin can vary a lot, and potentially encompass tanned "white".
No, they're svart alfar - black elves or dark elves. Germanic languages have a lot fewer words* than English for similar concepts. Anyway Norse 'Dark Elves' are dwarves & trolls, not pretty boys & pretty girls.
*This RPG conversation in Swedish looks incredibly racist, if you assume a 1:1 match with Anglo-American English - https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=11167 - Google Translate comes up with such gems as
The elf - or for that matter straight-backed human - who knocks on the gate of a stronghold of black people should immediately be regarded as a renegade. Conversely, the orc who would even come up with the idea of entering into alliances with work team dwarves would make himself impossible with his own kind. The 1987 edition states, bluntly, that characters are wise to avoid casting characters who are black as they are "disliked by most other intelligent races" :o
In fairness, Warhammer's dark elves seem to be mostly based on Michael Moorcock's Melniboneans, with a tiny dose of the Noldor thrown in. Moorcock himself has accused Warhammer of "commercial theft" on more than one occasion.
I've never seen direct evidence for it, but I've always suspected that Gygax's Drow were heavily inspired by Burroughs' Black Martians. Both are black-skinned, subterranean races of bandits/pirates and slavers, that live under a matriarchal theocracy, and their religious leaders are fundamentally lying to them.
Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 09:12:17 AM
Aren't dark elves in Norse mythology described as "Swarthy", though?
Though, I suppose what exactly constitutes "swarthy" skin can vary a lot, and potentially encompass tanned "white".
No, they're svart alfar - black elves or dark elves. Germanic languages have a lot fewer words* than English for similar concepts. Anyway Norse 'Dark Elves' are dwarves & trolls, not pretty boys & pretty girls.
Yeah, I was about to make almost this exact comment. "Elf" is an incredibly vague category in folklore, and depending on where you look, can encompass almost any kind of minor god or nature spirit. The identification of elves as a specific race and classification into subtypes is almost entirely an invention of 20th century fantasy writers.
Is this happening is Starfinder as well? The drow have their own planet. That's going to be one hell of a retcon.
Quote from: ForgottenF on June 04, 2023, 10:20:13 AM
Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 09:12:17 AM
Aren't dark elves in Norse mythology described as "Swarthy", though?
Though, I suppose what exactly constitutes "swarthy" skin can vary a lot, and potentially encompass tanned "white".
No, they're svart alfar - black elves or dark elves. Germanic languages have a lot fewer words* than English for similar concepts. Anyway Norse 'Dark Elves' are dwarves & trolls, not pretty boys & pretty girls.
Yeah, I was about to make almost this exact comment. "Elf" is an incredibly vague category in folklore, and depending on where you look, can encompass almost any kind of minor god or nature spirit. The identification of elves as a specific race and classification into subtypes is almost entirely an invention of 20th century fantasy writers.
Which sort of goes against making any definitive claims either away. I also read somewhere once that there's a separate word for "dwarf" and "elf", which leads some to think that "svart alfar" and dwarves are two different types of being. But it's been a while since I read that and don't remember where (or was it a YT video somewhere?), so I might be miss remembering.
On any event there are a lot of these inconsistencies of usage that make some of these terms hard to pin down, with different places using different words to refer to similar creatures, or the same word to refer to different ones. And not just "elf/alfar", but pretty much the entire vocabulary concerning "faeries" in general. Plus jinn, yokai, angels and demons are similar to "faeries/fey" as well, and probably refer the same overall category of "otherworldly (mostly) humanoid creatures", but applied to different cultures.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:22:24 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on June 04, 2023, 10:20:13 AM
Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM
No, they're svart alfar - black elves or dark elves. Germanic languages have a lot fewer words* than English for similar concepts. Anyway Norse 'Dark Elves' are dwarves & trolls, not pretty boys & pretty girls.
Yeah, I was about to make almost this exact comment. "Elf" is an incredibly vague category in folklore, and depending on where you look, can encompass almost any kind of minor god or nature spirit. The identification of elves as a specific race and classification into subtypes is almost entirely an invention of 20th century fantasy writers.
Which sort of goes against making any definitive claims either away. I also read somewhere once that there's a separate word for "dwarf" and "elf", which leads some to think that "svart alfar" and dwarves are two different types of being. But it's been a while since I read that and don't remember where (or was it a YT video somewhere?), so I might be miss remembering.
With the disclaimer that I'm not an expert on old norse, there's the word "dvergar", which is used for dwarves. My understanding is that the two words are used somewhat interchangeably in the primary sources, and are both described as originating in Svartalfheim.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:22:24 PM
On any event there are a lot of these inconsistencies of usage that make some of these terms hard to pin down, with different places using different words to refer to similar creatures, or the same word to refer to different ones. And not just "elf/alfar", but pretty much the entire vocabulary concerning "faeries" in general. Plus jinn, yokai, angels and demons are similar to "faeries/fey" as well, and probably refer the same overall category of "otherworldly (mostly) humanoid creatures", but applied to different cultures.
Yeah, I don't think it would be wholly unreasonable to refer to Nyads and Dryads as "Greek Elves", the same way that some might refer to Selkies or the Tuatha Dé Danann as "Celtic Elves".
With the right pokes and prods, we could probably force them to remove Duergar as well.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:11:34 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 03, 2023, 08:34:46 PM
(https://us.v-cdn.net/5022456/uploads/editor/0s/ahyj18m88uwe.png)
Nuff Said
All I see in that pic is a couple of white chicks acting like they're constipated. Where are the Dark Elves?
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4SZGoCnf448/VZf1NBkzM2I/AAAAAAAAEjA/0JcxggoeHk4/s1600/242lolth.jpg)
On topic, I don't play Pathfinder and I'm unlikely ever to, so I don't care. But this comes off lazy AF. And for all the people speculating on stuff already covered by the article posted in the OP, they already said that they're replacing drow with snake men or something completely unrelated to elves. Dark Elves are being wiped out from Pathfinder altogether.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 04, 2023, 12:10:48 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on June 03, 2023, 09:07:56 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 03, 2023, 09:29:57 AM
Why is anyone surprised by this? Paizo is leaving the OGL. WotC's antics pretty much pissed in the pool for them (and anyone else).
It would be an non-issue except for all their so called we " can't use Drow because of the OGL" thru are keeping a bunch of OGL content just re-skinning and filing off the serial numbers off. Yet somehow they can't do it with the Drow. It's Paizo being cowards and lacking the stones just admit that they are to Woke for the Drow.
Anything specific? Because they seem to be doing some pretty heavy jettisoning of a LOT of things.
Like alignment. Spell schools. Aasimar/tiefling (though those are getting rolled into a single heritage, nephilim).
I actually like the idea of calling half-celestials "Nephilim". It kinda fits and uses a term form actual RL myth rather than silly made up words.
Yeah this cover for Against the Queen of Spiders module is the only time they actually made the Drow look black that I can remember. Everything else was not brown but black, to purple and definitely otherworldly. The cover made them look like a couple of black chicks getting ready to do arobics.
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:22:24 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on June 04, 2023, 10:20:13 AM
Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 09:12:17 AM
Aren't dark elves in Norse mythology described as "Swarthy", though?
Though, I suppose what exactly constitutes "swarthy" skin can vary a lot, and potentially encompass tanned "white".
No, they're svart alfar - black elves or dark elves. Germanic languages have a lot fewer words* than English for similar concepts. Anyway Norse 'Dark Elves' are dwarves & trolls, not pretty boys & pretty girls.
Yeah, I was about to make almost this exact comment. "Elf" is an incredibly vague category in folklore, and depending on where you look, can encompass almost any kind of minor god or nature spirit. The identification of elves as a specific race and classification into subtypes is almost entirely an invention of 20th century fantasy writers.
Which sort of goes against making any definitive claims either away. I also read somewhere once that there's a separate word for "dwarf" and "elf", which leads some to think that "svart alfar" and dwarves are two different types of being. But it's been a while since I read that and don't remember where (or was it a YT video somewhere?), so I might be miss remembering.
On any event there are a lot of these inconsistencies of usage that make some of these terms hard to pin down, with different places using different words to refer to similar creatures, or the same word to refer to different ones. And not just "elf/alfar", but pretty much the entire vocabulary concerning "faeries" in general. Plus jinn, yokai, angels and demons are similar to "faeries/fey" as well, and probably refer the same overall category of "otherworldly (mostly) humanoid creatures", but applied to different cultures.
Exactly. When you study comparative mythology, you quickly learn that mythology and folklore doesn't operate on clear taxonomies like biology but on vague archetypes. The stories aren't designed to be scientific, but to teach lessons, entertain your audience, and shut up children pestering you. Storytellers, and most religions at the time, weren't concerned with creating a highly detailed and internally consistent canon explaining the universe. They were much more practical and pragmatic.
Which is why I find fantasy worldbuilding such a huge headache. Most writers who try it simply cannot do it, and it's way too much effort for way too little reward.
When it comes to ttrpgs in particular, I find the religious veneration of canon and metaplot and other stupid shit gets in the way of having fun. What's important is maintaining a consistent
atmosphere, not adhering to a religious text. Every single ttrpg with a bloated lore has undergone evolution due to writer turnover and changing ideas, and continue to experience this if they're still around. Also, if the IP changes hands and the new publisher is sloppy and poorly managed, then any investment you had was wasted.
I ran smack dab into this while trying to acquire and translate the obscure French ttrpg
Nephilim. The first edition was released in 1992, second in 1996, and constantly revised through that time. The third and last edition released by the original publisher was in 2001, before they went under due the ttrpg market in general crunching, and it was basically a condensation of the most the lore they could fit in their limited page count as well as much needed revisions and clarifications to a decade of rules and lore bloat. In 2019 another publisher acquired the IP, ran a kickstarter to get funding, and then proceeded to absolutely shit on the vast majority of the innovations made since 1992. Their second splatbook was a straight up reprint of a first edition book with minor changes, completely ignoring the decade of subsequent lore and rules development on that splat.
To add insult to injury, the new publisher commonly includes condescending and insulting statements in the literal text of these books that the vast majority of the prior editions' decade of innovations was garbage and killed the original publisher (which is completely false btw because the entire industry collapsed at the exact same time). I don't understand what the fuck is wrong with these people. They resurrect a dead IP with kickstarter life-support (funded largely by fans of the prior editions, not new audiences because that's how this market rolls) and then proceed to insult its history. If they respected the history while making needed clarifications and innovations that would be fine, but they're not. If you're someone who treats rules and lore pragmatically like I do and see it as tools for adventuring and playability and so forth, then their retrograde behavior and attitude is a nightmare.
They can't even be bothered to put the prior editions on drivethrurpg like most other publishers do nowadays, making excuses about legal agreements or whatever preventing them.*
(To make it clear, I'm not actually invested in the metaplot because I hate metaplot in general. I just wanted the books to convert to Chaosium's US version. That's way easier when the rules and lore aren't unrefined first edition vomit. Even with the US version my campaigns are using the third edition rules system because it's a much better fit for the setting than BRP. But I do love all the crazy X-Files and b-movie stuff, decentralization and generally improved playability that Chaosium threw in with their US version so it's not a total loss.)
Publishers can get fucked. Lore and metaplot can get fucked. It's too fucking much. I've had it with this hobby.
Removing drow is quite frankly very low on the list of frustrating design decisions I've encountered. They've long since grown into their own distinct fantasy genre trope, so what one publisher decides to do with them is irrelevant. Others will pick up the slack.
*This is one of the reasons why I support copyright reform. Any book out of print for more than a decade should automatically enter public domain early to prevent it from being lost to history. If the copyholder gets upset about it, then it's their own fault for not putting it up on e-retail stores in the internet age. Maybe give them a grace period of one or two years to put it up on e-retail before the rights expire permanently. Otherwise, they can get fucked for destroying history. Copyright was legalized to ensure authors got their profits. It was NOT designed to destroy the books via negligence once they were no longer profitable, which is what it does right now.
Quote from: JackFS4 on June 04, 2023, 06:12:04 PM
Is this happening is Starfinder as well? The drow have their own planet. That's going to be one hell of a retcon.
That is actually a darn good question.
Paizo's in world "Wokeness" is way overstated than it actually is. Particularly when you compare it to how far gone WotC has gone these days. Even less left than Modern Day World of Darkness is.
Paizo is most certainly Left and Progressive, but I place them in the basket of "Progressives I can tolerate."
I recently decided to get into Pathfinder again and started reading up on it... It's really not there and in your face as current Dungeons and Dragons is. Golarion is still a really fricken cool setting with a ton of awesome campaigns and stuff within it. Demons, Devils and Daemons are still inherently evil, as are the majority of undead. The creatures of the Heavens are 'Good', even if Alignment is being removed from the game.
All of this is to say, removing the Drow has nothing to do with Woke-Scoldness on Paizo's part, and everything to do with excising everything that's OGL specific.
This is happening all over with it's new revised edition coming up.... Even magic schools are being removed, to be replaced by... actual Magical Schools (Civics, Battle, Academic) your Wizard went to. The Chromatic and Metallic Dragons are being quietly replaced with Paizo's new take on the four aspects of magic Dragons.
I can see why Paizo doesn't want to just do a copy-paste Drow with the serial numbers filed off though. "Dark Elves" are very much a D&D thing (and Warhammer of course). They mention their will be cavern elves in the Dark Lands still but that the Cavern Elves are very much NOT Drow.
Quote from: Orphan81 on June 05, 2023, 12:02:19 PM
Paizo's in world "Wokeness" is way overstated than it actually is. Particularly when you compare it to how far gone WotC has gone these days. Even less left than Modern Day World of Darkness is.
Paizo is most certainly Left and Progressive, but I place them in the basket of "Progressives I can tolerate."
I hate their retconning stuff to meet their criteria for Politically Correct. It started around 2012. I was big into Pathfinder stuff 2010-12, but Wrath of the Righteous soured me on them, along with Jessica Price wrecking their message boards. At the time they were further Left than WoTC. I guess WoTC may well have gone noticeably further Left than them by now.
I can't really abide any big publisher these days. Free League, I guess. Swedes used to be seen as very Politically Correct; by 2023 standards they're practically MAGA.
Quote from: Orphan81 on June 05, 2023, 12:02:19 PM
Paizo's in world "Wokeness" is way overstated than it actually is. Particularly when you compare it to how far gone WotC has gone these days. Even less left than Modern Day World of Darkness is.
Paizo is most certainly Left and Progressive, but I place them in the basket of "Progressives I can tolerate."
I basically agree with this take. It's annoying but Id rate them a 5/10 on the wokescale, while WW is like a 8-9. Wizards is a safe 7.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 05, 2023, 11:32:38 AM
Quote from: JackFS4 on June 04, 2023, 06:12:04 PM
Is this happening is Starfinder as well? The drow have their own planet. That's going to be one hell of a retcon.
That is actually a darn good question.
Time for them to bring in The Wokestar and its dreaded SuperCanceller.
"I sense a great disturbance in the Farce, as if a million Drzzt clones screamed out and were suddenly silenced."
Quote from: Grognard GM on June 04, 2023, 08:46:20 AM
Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 08:43:09 AM
1. Dark Elves are white (except in D&D).
It's almost like they're (bile rises in throat) based on European folklore (begins to vomit at the toxicity.)
Except not all dark elves in D&D are dark skinned.
Dragonlance Dark Elves are just normal elves that have been exiled.
Mystara Dark Elves are pale skinned.
I disagree about it not bring about Wokeness. After all this is the same company that for the 2E of Golarion had every country including the evil factions controlling suddenly abolish slavery. I get the good or neutral aligned countries where it make sense. Why would Cheliax or any other evil aligned faction do it let alone care.
Despite the OGL many creatures such as the Duegar are simply being renamed and possibly re-skinned though otherwise kept whole. If the never jumped on the progressive bandwagon I would believe it was only the OGL. Given how they behaved the caved to the woke mob and removed the Drow.
Quote from: Abraxus on June 06, 2023, 10:02:18 AM
I disagree about it not bring about Wokeness. After all this is the same company that for the 2E of Golarion had every country including the evil factions controlling suddenly abolish slavery.
Sure, the article says as much. But it's also true that the Drow were created for/by early D&D, and the Dark Elves of Pathfinder are blatantly
copies "inspired" by them. It makes sense creatively to drop/change them just to do something different.
Quote from: Abraxus on June 06, 2023, 10:02:18 AM
I disagree about it not bring about Wokeness.
I'm only saying it was 30% woke motive, and 70%-ish business oriented (they gotta scrap a TON of their expensive backlog art for this). Honestly, I don't care.
I have no idea how anyone can say phrases like "evil-aligned countries practice slavery" with a straight face. Every real society that practiced slavery, human sacrifice, etc originally promoted it as a moral good. They didn't act like Saturday morning cartoon villains who constantly went on about how evil they were and how great it was be to evil. Fantasy gaming's use of alignments based loosely on Enlightenment values for entire countries just feels really fucking stupid to me. Maybe it's because I watched The Good Place which had one character teaching another about moral philosophy, but in real life and history nobody has ever treated morality like competing sports teams. It's commonplace to engage in blood libel that accuses another culture of being demon-worshiping psychos, but no real culture has literally been demon-worshiping psychos. If any ever existed, they obviously weren't stable long enough to leave any record of their existence. As shown by real life cases of murderous Satanists, they're invariably mentally ill people who couldn't possibly maintain a stable society. But fantasy fiction expects us to believe they can.
This isn't to discount evil acts. (By "evil" what I technically mean is "anti-humanist".) Societies have generally become less sadistic and more humanistic over time. We abolished slavery, human sacrifice, etc. There's still a lot of abuse still going on, obviously, but we're not vivisecting people in front of crowds anymore. But the people who did these horrific acts didn't consider it evil, but good. Their morality was based on two things: 1) simple tribalism, which is ultimately the foundation of all morality if we get to the root of psychology, and 2) "do whatever horrific acts your god tells you to that doesn't destabilize the tribe because the priest high on peyote told you it would stop the natural disasters and we don't have livestock to substitute (https://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2012/08/20/human-sacrifice-the-weather-made-me-do-it/books/squaring-off/)."
And even within those societies you had disagreements. Supposedly Quetzalcoatl opposed human sacrifice and got banished across the Atlantic Ocean by Tezcatlipoca. I have no clue whether that's a real myth or was invented after the Spanish Conquest, but obviously you had the tribes allying with Cortez to stop the Aztecs sacrificing them.
But the Aztecs and Carthaginians and so on didn't believe themselves to be evil demon-worshipers. To promote such a thing, even in fantasy, is anachronistic. Honestly, fantasy is just hugely anachronistic and incoherent anyway.
Anyway, one of the problems with treating morality as simply competing sports teams means that they're no longer actually about morality or consequences of actions anymore (https://charmed.fandom.com/wiki/Good_and_Evil). How do you convince someone that it is better to be good than evil when good and evil are just competing sports teams who can function equally well as civilizations? Why are people good or evil in the first place if good and evil are just competing sports teams? How did good and evil even come to exist? Can what qualifies as good or evil change over time? Why? Why is good preferable to evil?
You can imagine why I prefer to use the original Moorcockian idea of cosmic balance between order and chaos instead, where the difference between heroes and villains depends on where the pendulum has shifted for the world in question.
Sorry for the tangent. Just need to get that off my chest.
Quote from: Abraxus on June 06, 2023, 10:02:18 AM
I disagree about it not bring about Wokeness. After all this is the same company that for the 2E of Golarion had every country including the evil factions controlling suddenly abolish slavery. I get the good or neutral aligned countries where it make sense. Why would Cheliax or any other evil aligned faction do it let alone care.
Despite the OGL many creatures such as the Duegar are simply being renamed and possibly re-skinned though otherwise kept whole. If the never jumped on the progressive bandwagon I would believe it was only the OGL. Given how they behaved the caved to the woke mob and removed the Drow.
If they did remove the Drow for Woke reasons (and I'm not 100% sure they did), it is significant that they didn't just say that. Which would mean that they are just as afraid of the non-Woke player base as the Woke "players". Most RPG companies are walking that fine line, doing things to their games for wokeness and then claiming that they are doing it for other reasons like "game balance."
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 06, 2023, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on June 06, 2023, 10:02:18 AM
I disagree about it not bring about Wokeness. After all this is the same company that for the 2E of Golarion had every country including the evil factions controlling suddenly abolish slavery.
Sure, the article says as much. But it's also true that the Drow were created for/by early D&D, and the Dark Elves of Pathfinder are blatantly copies "inspired" by them. It makes sense creatively to drop/change them just to do something different.
Well seeing as its the month of the Saudi Arabian VPN change, they should make "Pride Elves". Underground elves that all of them can get pregnant, they can change sex or have no sex at all, its common for the parents to realize their "sprouts" are the wrong sex even though sex is meaningless and to give them a sex change ritual where they go to the "High Priestess of Marginalization", the most oppressed of the Pride Elves, they have one more rainbow color than the other and more than 4 millenia one of their ancestors were cut in like at the welfare office, so they had it hard. The High Priestess of Marginalization then does the magic pronoun ceremony that makes everything better.
There you go Paizo, free lore for your "right side of history" company lore.
It concede it's not the only reason and it is also from the business end due to Wotc OGL shenanigans. Yet why can they take what seems to be IGL content and skip port it over yet Drow are so difficult to do, Beyond needing to change the Dragons which so I can see because Wotc has their unique take on them. Drow and only Drow seem to be targeted more.
Even then instead of just saying m" hey we removed Drow because of the OGL, it's also oh and Btwthey also never really existed and it was some kind of mass illusion or con done by the serpent folk we plan to replace them with".
It's like how Bobby died in Dallas TV show and they brought the character back because it was all a dream.
Quote from: Abraxus on June 06, 2023, 12:02:00 PM
It concede it's not the only reason and it is also from the business end due to Wotc OGL shenanigans. Yet why can they take what seems to be IGL content and skip port it over yet Drow are so difficult to do, Beyond needing to change the Dragons which so I can see because Wotc has their unique take on them. Drow and only Drow seem to be targeted more.
Even then instead of just saying m" hey we removed Drow because of the OGL, it's also oh and Btwthey also never really existed and it was some kind of mass illusion or con done by the serpent folk we plan to replace them with".
It's like how Bobby died in Dallas TV show and they brought the character back because it was all a dream.
Paizo is happy to keep Duergar but not the Drow, give me a break Paizo.
Slavery was not removed from Pathfinder. It was 'removed' from two of the biggest countries which took part in it, and Paizo has stated they won't have Adventure Paths that Spotlight it anymore. That being said, Slavery does exist and is still legal in many parts of the Inner Sea Region.
In the case of Cheliax and Kapatesh, specific story reasons were used to 'get rid' of slavery, and in the case of Cheliax, it's still slavery, just under a different name (Indentured Servitude). House Thrune 'abolished' slavery in order to weaken the revolutionary abolitionist movements within the country. The 'Firebands' movement lost a lot of power when one of their primary sources of recruitment and rebellion was removed. Allowing the Lawful evil Devil worshipping nation to maintain it's power. Contracts of indentured servitude and putting the former slaves into what amounts to 'debt slavery' has now taken it's place.
In the case of Kaptesh, there were so many escaped slaves that new the process used in order to create the magic flowers, they started getting competition from them. For economic reasons they stopped using slaves.. That being said, the Gnoll slavers outside of Kaptesh still operate.
What this amounts to is Paizo wanting to have it's cake and eat it too... Slavery is now easy to 'ignore' for the super woke fields... but just as easy to focus on and maintain for those who want it as story elements in their own home game.
Yes this was done to appease woke mobs... But again, as I mentioned, Paizo is one of those woke companies that's 'tolerable', the elements are there, but again, not in your face and easy to ignore.
As for the "Duregar" no, Paizo is NOT keeping the Duregar... they have a completely different name for the "Dark Dwarves" and have changed their culture to make it more distinct from the Duregar. The new dark dwarves of Pathfinder are going to have a heavy focus on debt, wanting people to be in their debt, and trying everything they can to not be in other people's debt.
Quote from: Orphan81 on June 06, 2023, 04:43:02 PM
The new dark dwarves of Pathfinder are going to have a heavy focus on debt, wanting people to be in their debt, and trying everything they can to not be in other people's debt.
In before article about how dark Dwarves are a thinly veiled analogy to Jews, in 3...2...1...
I personally am supportive of dropping Drow, if only because it feels like every Drow PC I've ever encountered was a headache to deal with. Everyone goes through their Drow phase where they realize that TTRPGs enable their imagination to go anywhere and so they start rolling more and more exotic characters, but then swiftly losing interest in them as they move to the next idea. The Drow is like the canary in the coal mine that somebody is going through this phase and it's disruptive to a campaign and bad for group cohesion if you indulge it too much. Considering how I severely limit or ban options at the table (including Drow) until people prove themselves responsible enough to handle embodying that more exotic culture and outlook, I see losing Drow as a non-issue for me.
For worldbuilding purposes or whatever, I associate Drow with D&D. If you have an equivalent to the underdark full of purple-skinned dark elves who worship a spider goddess, you're just ripping off of D&D and should try to be a little more creative (IMHO). There are good adventures with them, but none I've heard of which were published recently. As random throwaway NPCs however, it feels like people love sprinkling weird stuff like Drow in places which feel dissonant to me. Keep the fantastical fantastic by limiting demihumans, and push unusual demihumans like Drow into the recesses of the setting so they're actually rare and unusual. Drow are good as an adversary for a short campaign or adventure I think, but I feel like that's about the extent of their utility.
Went with the Jim Butcher line of Elven "Courts" in our campaign so drow vanished from our world completely. No one is missing ole Eclavadra sadly enough.
Quote from: Grognard GM on June 06, 2023, 05:40:10 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on June 06, 2023, 04:43:02 PM
The new dark dwarves of Pathfinder are going to have a heavy focus on debt, wanting people to be in their debt, and trying everything they can to not be in other people's debt.
In before article about how dark Dwarves are a thinly veiled analogy to Jews, in 3...2...1...
The woke don't care about anti-semitism, or perhaps do and fully support it. That would only be something they would bring up for a company that doesn't bend the knee.
Quote from: Old Aegidius on June 07, 2023, 01:47:54 AM
I personally am supportive of dropping Drow, if only because it feels like every Drow PC I've ever encountered was a headache to deal with. Everyone goes through their Drow phase where they realize that TTRPGs enable their imagination to go anywhere and so they start rolling more and more exotic characters, but then swiftly losing interest in them as they move to the next idea. The Drow is like the canary in the coal mine that somebody is going through this phase and it's disruptive to a campaign and bad for group cohesion if you indulge it too much. Considering how I severely limit or ban options at the table (including Drow) until people prove themselves responsible enough to handle embodying that more exotic culture and outlook, I see losing Drow as a non-issue for me.
For worldbuilding purposes or whatever, I associate Drow with D&D. If you have an equivalent to the underdark full of purple-skinned dark elves who worship a spider goddess, you're just ripping off of D&D and should try to be a little more creative (IMHO). There are good adventures with them, but none I've heard of which were published recently. As random throwaway NPCs however, it feels like people love sprinkling weird stuff like Drow in places which feel dissonant to me. Keep the fantastical fantastic by limiting demihumans, and push unusual demihumans like Drow into the recesses of the setting so they're actually rare and unusual. Drow are good as an adversary for a short campaign or adventure I think, but I feel like that's about the extent of their utility.
Half-Orc PCs really aren't any different. It's an embodiment of the 'normally evil/villain race/species with the one good exception' (you've got that in Wing Commander as well, with a good Kilrathi featuring, and Star Trek also did it with Worf and Seven of Nine).
This also points out that playing a good Drow PC is only appealing because Drow are evil. Make Drow non-evil, then there's nothing special except the colour of the skin. If you have any evil race that has roughly equivalent power to standard PC races (or perhaps a little bit more powerful), players will want to play a good version of it.
Quote from: migo on June 08, 2023, 12:04:00 PM
Quote from: Old Aegidius on June 07, 2023, 01:47:54 AM
I personally am supportive of dropping Drow, if only because it feels like every Drow PC I've ever encountered was a headache to deal with. Everyone goes through their Drow phase where they realize that TTRPGs enable their imagination to go anywhere and so they start rolling more and more exotic characters, but then swiftly losing interest in them as they move to the next idea. The Drow is like the canary in the coal mine that somebody is going through this phase and it's disruptive to a campaign and bad for group cohesion if you indulge it too much. Considering how I severely limit or ban options at the table (including Drow) until people prove themselves responsible enough to handle embodying that more exotic culture and outlook, I see losing Drow as a non-issue for me.
For worldbuilding purposes or whatever, I associate Drow with D&D. If you have an equivalent to the underdark full of purple-skinned dark elves who worship a spider goddess, you're just ripping off of D&D and should try to be a little more creative (IMHO). There are good adventures with them, but none I've heard of which were published recently. As random throwaway NPCs however, it feels like people love sprinkling weird stuff like Drow in places which feel dissonant to me. Keep the fantastical fantastic by limiting demihumans, and push unusual demihumans like Drow into the recesses of the setting so they're actually rare and unusual. Drow are good as an adversary for a short campaign or adventure I think, but I feel like that's about the extent of their utility.
Half-Orc PCs really aren't any different. It's an embodiment of the 'normally evil/villain race/species with the one good exception' (you've got that in Wing Commander as well, with a good Kilrathi featuring, and Star Trek also did it with Worf and Seven of Nine).
This also points out that playing a good Drow PC is only appealing because Drow are evil. Make Drow non-evil, then there's nothing special except the colour of the skin. If you have any evil race that has roughly equivalent power to standard PC races (or perhaps a little bit more powerful), players will want to play a good version of it.
This is the advantage of making the Orcs a neutral race, and making them a player character option right out the gate. We all know World of Warcraft has popularized the concept of Neutral Orcs.... Rather than being a half-step 'Half-Orc' cut out the contrivance and just be an Orc... The in Golarion setting still has plenty of Orc Tribes that are warlike and barbaric and serve the whispering tyrant or still have a blood feud with the Dwarves to provide canon fodder when wanted.