In fairness, Warhammer's dark elves seem to be mostly based on Michael Moorcock's Melniboneans, with a tiny dose of the Noldor thrown in. Moorcock himself has accused Warhammer of "commercial theft" on more than one occasion.

I've never seen direct evidence for it, but I've always suspected that Gygax's Drow were heavily inspired by Burroughs' Black Martians. Both are black-skinned, subterranean races of bandits/pirates and slavers, that live under a matriarchal theocracy, and their religious leaders are fundamentally lying to them.

Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 09:12:17 AM
Aren't dark elves in Norse mythology described as "Swarthy", though?

Though, I suppose what exactly constitutes "swarthy" skin can vary a lot, and potentially encompass tanned "white".

No, they're svart alfar - black elves or dark elves. Germanic languages have a lot fewer words* than English for similar concepts. Anyway Norse 'Dark Elves' are dwarves & trolls, not pretty boys & pretty girls.

Yeah, I was about to make almost this exact comment. "Elf" is an incredibly vague category in folklore, and depending on where you look, can encompass almost any kind of minor god or nature spirit. The identification of elves as a specific race and classification into subtypes is almost entirely an invention of 20th century fantasy writers.

Is this happening is Starfinder as well? The drow have their own planet. That's going to be one hell of a retcon.

Quote from: ForgottenF on June 04, 2023, 10:20:13 AM

Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 09:12:17 AM
Aren't dark elves in Norse mythology described as "Swarthy", though?

Though, I suppose what exactly constitutes "swarthy" skin can vary a lot, and potentially encompass tanned "white".

No, they're svart alfar - black elves or dark elves. Germanic languages have a lot fewer words* than English for similar concepts. Anyway Norse 'Dark Elves' are dwarves & trolls, not pretty boys & pretty girls.

Yeah, I was about to make almost this exact comment. "Elf" is an incredibly vague category in folklore, and depending on where you look, can encompass almost any kind of minor god or nature spirit. The identification of elves as a specific race and classification into subtypes is almost entirely an invention of 20th century fantasy writers.

Which sort of goes against making any definitive claims either away. I also read somewhere once that there's a separate word for "dwarf" and "elf", which leads some to think that "svart alfar" and dwarves are two different types of being. But it's been a while since I read that and don't remember where (or was it a YT video somewhere?), so I might be miss remembering.

On any event there are a lot of these inconsistencies of usage that make some of these terms hard to pin down, with different places using different words to refer to similar creatures, or the same word to refer to different ones. And not just "elf/alfar", but pretty much the entire vocabulary concerning "faeries" in general. Plus jinn, yokai, angels and demons are similar to "faeries/fey" as well, and probably refer the same overall category of "otherworldly (mostly) humanoid creatures", but applied to different cultures.

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:22:24 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on June 04, 2023, 10:20:13 AM

Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM
No, they're svart alfar - black elves or dark elves. Germanic languages have a lot fewer words* than English for similar concepts. Anyway Norse 'Dark Elves' are dwarves & trolls, not pretty boys & pretty girls.

Yeah, I was about to make almost this exact comment. "Elf" is an incredibly vague category in folklore, and depending on where you look, can encompass almost any kind of minor god or nature spirit. The identification of elves as a specific race and classification into subtypes is almost entirely an invention of 20th century fantasy writers.

Which sort of goes against making any definitive claims either away. I also read somewhere once that there's a separate word for "dwarf" and "elf", which leads some to think that "svart alfar" and dwarves are two different types of being. But it's been a while since I read that and don't remember where (or was it a YT video somewhere?), so I might be miss remembering.

With the disclaimer that I'm not an expert on old norse, there's the word "dvergar", which is used for dwarves. My understanding is that the two words are used somewhat interchangeably in the primary sources, and are both described as originating in Svartalfheim.

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:22:24 PM
On any event there are a lot of these inconsistencies of usage that make some of these terms hard to pin down, with different places using different words to refer to similar creatures, or the same word to refer to different ones. And not just "elf/alfar", but pretty much the entire vocabulary concerning "faeries" in general. Plus jinn, yokai, angels and demons are similar to "faeries/fey" as well, and probably refer the same overall category of "otherworldly (mostly) humanoid creatures", but applied to different cultures.

Yeah, I don't think it would be wholly unreasonable to refer to Nyads and Dryads as "Greek Elves", the same way that some  might refer to Selkies or the Tuatha Dé Danann as "Celtic Elves".

With the right pokes and prods, we could probably force them to remove Duergar as well.

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:11:34 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 03, 2023, 08:34:46 PM

Nuff Said

All I see in that pic is a couple of white chicks acting like they're constipated. Where are the Dark Elves?



On topic, I don't play Pathfinder and I'm unlikely ever to, so I don't care. But this comes off lazy AF. And for all the people speculating on stuff already covered by the article posted in the OP, they already said that they're replacing drow with snake men or something completely unrelated to elves. Dark Elves are being wiped out from Pathfinder altogether.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 04, 2023, 12:10:48 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on June 03, 2023, 09:07:56 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 03, 2023, 09:29:57 AM
Why is anyone surprised by this? Paizo is leaving the OGL. WotC's antics pretty much pissed in the pool for them (and anyone else).

It would be an non-issue except for all their so called we " can't use Drow because of the OGL" thru are keeping a bunch of OGL content just re-skinning and filing off the serial numbers off. Yet somehow they can't do it with the Drow. It's Paizo being cowards and lacking the stones just admit that they are to Woke for the Drow.

Anything specific? Because they seem to be doing some pretty heavy jettisoning of a LOT of things.

Like alignment. Spell schools. Aasimar/tiefling (though those are getting rolled into a single heritage, nephilim).

I actually like the idea of calling half-celestials "Nephilim". It kinda fits and uses a term form actual RL myth rather than silly made up words.

Yeah this cover for Against the Queen of Spiders module is the only time they actually made the Drow look black that I can remember.  Everything else was not brown but black, to purple and definitely otherworldly.  The cover made them look like a couple of black chicks getting ready to do arobics.

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 07:22:24 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on June 04, 2023, 10:20:13 AM

Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 10:03:56 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 04, 2023, 09:12:17 AM
Aren't dark elves in Norse mythology described as "Swarthy", though?

Though, I suppose what exactly constitutes "swarthy" skin can vary a lot, and potentially encompass tanned "white".

No, they're svart alfar - black elves or dark elves. Germanic languages have a lot fewer words* than English for similar concepts. Anyway Norse 'Dark Elves' are dwarves & trolls, not pretty boys & pretty girls.

Yeah, I was about to make almost this exact comment. "Elf" is an incredibly vague category in folklore, and depending on where you look, can encompass almost any kind of minor god or nature spirit. The identification of elves as a specific race and classification into subtypes is almost entirely an invention of 20th century fantasy writers.

Which sort of goes against making any definitive claims either away. I also read somewhere once that there's a separate word for "dwarf" and "elf", which leads some to think that "svart alfar" and dwarves are two different types of being. But it's been a while since I read that and don't remember where (or was it a YT video somewhere?), so I might be miss remembering.

On any event there are a lot of these inconsistencies of usage that make some of these terms hard to pin down, with different places using different words to refer to similar creatures, or the same word to refer to different ones. And not just "elf/alfar", but pretty much the entire vocabulary concerning "faeries" in general. Plus jinn, yokai, angels and demons are similar to "faeries/fey" as well, and probably refer the same overall category of "otherworldly (mostly) humanoid creatures", but applied to different cultures.

Exactly. When you study comparative mythology, you quickly learn that mythology and folklore doesn't operate on clear taxonomies like biology but on vague archetypes. The stories aren't designed to be scientific, but to teach lessons, entertain your audience, and shut up children pestering you. Storytellers, and most religions at the time, weren't concerned with creating a highly detailed and internally consistent canon explaining the universe. They were much more practical and pragmatic.

Which is why I find fantasy worldbuilding such a huge headache. Most writers who try it simply cannot do it, and it's way too much effort for way too little reward.

When it comes to ttrpgs in particular, I find the religious veneration of canon and metaplot and other stupid shit gets in the way of having fun. What's important is maintaining a consistent atmosphere, not adhering to a religious text. Every single ttrpg with a bloated lore has undergone evolution due to writer turnover and changing ideas, and continue to experience this if they're still around. Also, if the IP changes hands and the new publisher is sloppy and poorly managed, then any investment you had was wasted.

I ran smack dab into this while trying to acquire and translate the obscure French ttrpg Nephilim. The first edition was released in 1992, second in 1996, and constantly revised through that time. The third and last edition released by the original publisher was in 2001, before they went under due the ttrpg market in general crunching, and it was basically a condensation of the most the lore they could fit in their limited page count as well as much needed revisions and clarifications to a decade of rules and lore bloat. In 2019 another publisher acquired the IP, ran a kickstarter to get funding, and then proceeded to absolutely shit on the vast majority of the innovations made since 1992. Their second splatbook was a straight up reprint of a first edition book with minor changes, completely ignoring the decade of subsequent lore and rules development on that splat.

To add insult to injury, the new publisher commonly includes condescending and insulting statements in the literal text of these books that the vast majority of the prior editions' decade of innovations was garbage and killed the original publisher (which is completely false btw because the entire industry collapsed at the exact same time). I don't understand what the fuck is wrong with these people. They resurrect a dead IP with kickstarter life-support (funded largely by fans of the prior editions, not new audiences because that's how this market rolls) and then proceed to insult its history. If they respected the history while making needed clarifications and innovations that would be fine, but they're not. If you're someone who treats rules and lore pragmatically like I do and see it as tools for adventuring and playability and so forth, then their retrograde behavior and attitude is a nightmare.

They can't even be bothered to put the prior editions on drivethrurpg like most other publishers do nowadays, making excuses about legal agreements or whatever preventing them.*

(To make it clear, I'm not actually invested in the metaplot because I hate metaplot in general. I just wanted the books to convert to Chaosium's US version. That's way easier when the rules and lore aren't unrefined first edition vomit. Even with the US version my campaigns are using the third edition rules system because it's a much better fit for the setting than BRP. But I do love all the crazy X-Files and b-movie stuff, decentralization and generally improved playability that Chaosium threw in with their US version so it's not a total loss.)

Publishers can get fucked. Lore and metaplot can get fucked. It's too fucking much. I've had it with this hobby.

Removing drow is quite frankly very low on the list of frustrating design decisions I've encountered. They've long since grown into their own distinct fantasy genre trope, so what one publisher decides to do with them is irrelevant. Others will pick up the slack.

*This is one of the reasons why I support copyright reform. Any book out of print for more than a decade should automatically enter public domain early to prevent it from being lost to history. If the copyholder gets upset about it, then it's their own fault for not putting it up on e-retail stores in the internet age. Maybe give them a grace period of one or two years to put it up on e-retail before the rights expire permanently. Otherwise, they can get fucked for destroying history. Copyright was legalized to ensure authors got their profits. It was NOT designed to destroy the books via negligence once they were no longer profitable, which is what it does right now.

Quote from: JackFS4 on June 04, 2023, 06:12:04 PM
Is this happening is Starfinder as well? The drow have their own planet. That's going to be one hell of a retcon.

That is actually a darn good question.

Paizo's in world "Wokeness" is way overstated than it actually is. Particularly when you compare it to how far gone WotC has gone these days. Even less left than Modern Day World of Darkness is.

Paizo is most certainly Left and Progressive, but I place them in the basket of "Progressives I can tolerate."

I recently decided to get into Pathfinder again and started reading up on it... It's really not there and in your face as current Dungeons and Dragons is. Golarion is still a really fricken cool setting with a ton of awesome campaigns and stuff within it. Demons, Devils and Daemons are still inherently evil, as are the majority of undead. The creatures of the Heavens are 'Good', even if Alignment is being removed from the game.

All of this is to say, removing the Drow has nothing to do with Woke-Scoldness on Paizo's part, and everything to do with excising everything that's OGL specific.

This is happening all over with it's new revised edition coming up.... Even magic schools are being removed, to be replaced by... actual Magical Schools (Civics, Battle, Academic) your Wizard went to. The Chromatic and Metallic Dragons are being quietly replaced with Paizo's new take on the four aspects of magic Dragons.

I can see why Paizo doesn't want to just do a copy-paste Drow with the serial numbers filed off though. "Dark Elves" are very much a D&D thing (and Warhammer of course). They mention their will be cavern elves in the Dark Lands still but that the Cavern Elves are very much NOT Drow.

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 05, 2023, 12:02:19 PM
Paizo's in world "Wokeness" is way overstated than it actually is. Particularly when you compare it to how far gone WotC has gone these days. Even less left than Modern Day World of Darkness is.

Paizo is most certainly Left and Progressive, but I place them in the basket of "Progressives I can tolerate."

I hate their retconning stuff to meet their criteria for Politically Correct. It started around 2012. I was big into Pathfinder stuff 2010-12, but Wrath of the Righteous soured me on them, along with Jessica Price wrecking their message boards. At the time they were further Left than WoTC. I guess WoTC may well have gone noticeably further Left than them by now.

I can't really abide any big publisher these days. Free League, I guess. Swedes used to be seen as very Politically Correct; by 2023 standards they're practically MAGA.

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 05, 2023, 12:02:19 PM
Paizo's in world "Wokeness" is way overstated than it actually is. Particularly when you compare it to how far gone WotC has gone these days. Even less left than Modern Day World of Darkness is.

Paizo is most certainly Left and Progressive, but I place them in the basket of "Progressives I can tolerate."

I basically agree with this take. It's annoying but Id rate them a 5/10 on the wokescale, while WW is like a 8-9. Wizards is a safe 7.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 05, 2023, 11:32:38 AM

Quote from: JackFS4 on June 04, 2023, 06:12:04 PM
Is this happening is Starfinder as well? The drow have their own planet. That's going to be one hell of a retcon.

That is actually a darn good question.

Time for them to bring in The Wokestar and its dreaded SuperCanceller.

"I sense a great disturbance in the Farce, as if a million Drzzt clones screamed out and were suddenly silenced."

Quote from: Grognard GM on June 04, 2023, 08:46:20 AM

Quote from: S'mon on June 04, 2023, 08:43:09 AM
1. Dark Elves are white (except in D&D).

It's almost like they're (bile rises in throat) based on European folklore (begins to vomit at the toxicity.)

Except not all dark elves in D&D are dark skinned.

Dragonlance Dark Elves are just normal elves that have been exiled.

Mystara Dark Elves are pale skinned.

I disagree about it not bring about Wokeness. After all this is the same company that for the 2E of Golarion had every country including the evil factions controlling suddenly abolish slavery. I get the good or neutral aligned countries where it make sense. Why would Cheliax or any other evil aligned faction do it let alone care.

Despite the OGL many creatures such as the Duegar are simply being renamed and possibly re-skinned though otherwise kept whole. If the never jumped on the progressive bandwagon  I would believe it was only the OGL. Given how they behaved the caved to the woke mob and removed the Drow.

Quote from: Abraxus on June 06, 2023, 10:02:18 AM
I disagree about it not bring about Wokeness. After all this is the same company that for the 2E of Golarion had every country including the evil factions controlling suddenly abolish slavery.

Sure, the article says as much. But it's also true that the Drow were created for/by early D&D, and the Dark Elves of Pathfinder are blatantly copies "inspired" by them. It makes sense creatively to drop/change them just to do something different.