I guess that the correct answer is: stick to Ose, Murphy, and not bother! :D
I don't know much 5e: played a couple of times and I remember next to 0. I do remember that the PHB is dull as fuck, I gave up at the equipment chapter.
Pathfinder 2e: read some bits at the shop. It doesn't look dull and I like classes as the Alchemist...
Considering both system raw (only core manuals, no extra), which one is faster in combat and task resolution?
You're asking what paint brand dries faster. Both are fine at lower levels. Starting at about lvl 5 there's a geometric growth in time required to resolve combat the further up the levels you go. By the time you get to about lvl 12, you'd be better off playing Cyberpunk 2020 for combat speed.
Quote from: BadApple on August 26, 2023, 11:13:09 AM
You're asking what paint brand dries faster. Both are fine at lower levels. Starting at about lvl 5 there's a geometric growth in time required to resolve combat the further up the levels you go. By the time you get to about lvl 12, you'd be better off playing Cyberpunk 2020 for combat speed.
It looks like I should just stick to Ose...
It honestly depends on the types of characters involved. Spellcasting is pretty fast in Pathfinder 2E, but that's part of the problem with it. Nearly all of the spells are aimed at combat and only last for a few rounds or minutes at most. Very few spells can be "sustained" longer than that, and Utility spells are either useless or nonexistent. I've found the only way to make this system work for spellcasters that are more than just damage turrets or status boosters is to houserule durations for Utility spells and certain defensive ones.
I will admit that the action economy in Pathfinder 2E is probably the best part of the system, but that seems like something you could just houserule into 1E for a slight improvement. Very little else about 2E is an improvement.
D&D 5E is generally faster and spellcasters have more depth and versatility, so I view it as the superior choice for combat and everything else.
It's really a player issue. If your players are really on top of how their PC works and other PCs at the table work and care about going fast, either system can be fast. If they're not that familiar with their own PC or the others, they will go slow.
I've heard PF2 is more dependent on other PCs at your table and involves more synergy and interaction between PCs in combat, but I cannot verify that.
Neither system however is built like a rules lite system.
Quote from: Mistwell on August 26, 2023, 12:24:19 PM
It's really a player issue. If your players are really on top of how their PC works and other PCs at the table work and care about going fast, either system can be fast. If they're not that familiar with their own PC or the others, they will go slow.
I've heard PF2 is more dependent on other PCs at your table and involves more synergy and interaction between PCs in combat, but I cannot verify that.
Neither system however is built like a rules lite system.
I agree that any game being played, moves only as fast as the whole group together moves. Low level 5E can move quickly, if you stick to playing simple characters. But 5E does have layers of options and capabilities, just to make the characters feel more special. It starts out fairly simple at first, and then it keeps adding more layers to the sandwich.
Which is faster, you dragging 300 lbs of rocks on a sled across the ground or you dragging 300 lbs of timber on a sled across the ground? Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2023, 02:55:56 PM
Which is faster, you dragging 300 lbs of rocks on a sled across the ground or you dragging 300 lbs of timber on a sled across the ground? Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
This and add 300lbs. to the load every 3 levels. Basically becomes a slog. D&D 2nd Edition is MILES better. Something like C&C is light years better.
Pathfinder 2e, by a lot.
Why? Every pathfinder 2e person is really big into the system. Your whole PF2E table is PF2E fanboys, of course they are good at resolution! By contrast, your 5e table has just the most casual players... so it takes longer to resolve things!
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2023, 02:55:56 PM
Which is faster, you dragging 300 lbs of rocks on a sled across the ground or you dragging 300 lbs of timber on a sled across the ground? Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Having watched Physical 100, specifically the Boat Challenge episode, I feel I can definitively say the scenario you paint is more complicated than just the weight and the sled :)
Also, if you have not seen the show, well worth watching.
Quote from: Venka on August 26, 2023, 08:59:44 PM
Pathfinder 2e, by a lot.
Why? Every pathfinder 2e person is really big into the system. Your whole PF2E table is PF2E fanboys, of course they are good at resolution! By contrast, your 5e table has just the most casual players... so it takes longer to resolve things!
That must be true as I know a few people who was into PF1, but nobody into PF2. Those who play it must be enthusiast.
Anyway, we would all be PF2 newbie, so the learning seems too steep...likely killing the campaign before we get to that level of expertise.
Quote from: Murphy78 on August 27, 2023, 03:20:35 AM
Quote from: Venka on August 26, 2023, 08:59:44 PM
Pathfinder 2e, by a lot.
Why? Every pathfinder 2e person is really big into the system. Your whole PF2E table is PF2E fanboys, of course they are good at resolution! By contrast, your 5e table has just the most casual players... so it takes longer to resolve things!
That must be true as I know a few people who was into PF1, but nobody into PF2. Those who play it must be enthusiast.
Anyway, we would all be PF2 newbie, so the learning seems too steep...likely killing the campaign before we get to that level of expertise.
While I view the PF2 system as being deeply flawed, I wouldn't call it difficult. I'd actually say it's too simple in many regards. The action economy, as mentioned before, is simple in a good way, but spells seem dumbed down.
If you've played PF1 or D&D 3E, you'll find it comparably easy.
So the question is, which is faster, the tortise or the sloth? " I am!" says the B/X bunny.
Quote from: Nameless Mist on August 27, 2023, 08:54:26 AM
While I view the PF2 system as being deeply flawed, I wouldn't call it difficult. I'd actually say it's too simple in many regards. The action economy, as mentioned before, is simple in a good way, but spells seem dumbed down.
If you've played PF1 or D&D 3E, you'll find it comparably easy.
What is it about PF2 that you find deeply flawed?
For me it is how they double down on having the PC's move through the "tiers of play" due to their tight leveling math.
Talk about low effort threads :P
PF IS the same core mechanic (1d20+ mods) as WoTC game. PF has always been WoTC game version 3.75.
Which spreads faster: Miracle Whip or mayo?
(https://media.tenor.com/tEG1YVIlXHkAAAAM/duh-face-duh.gif)
Quote from: Jaeger on August 29, 2023, 05:41:54 PM
Quote from: Nameless Mist on August 27, 2023, 08:54:26 AM
While I view the PF2 system as being deeply flawed, I wouldn't call it difficult. I'd actually say it's too simple in many regards. The action economy, as mentioned before, is simple in a good way, but spells seem dumbed down.
If you've played PF1 or D&D 3E, you'll find it comparably easy.
What is it about PF2 that you find deeply flawed?
For me it is how they double down on having the PC's move through the "tiers of play" due to their tight leveling math.
The most annoying thing about PF2 is the durations for spells. For combat-related spells, having a duration of a few rounds or a few minutes is fine. For utility spells, duration should be much longer, but in most cases, it isn't.
They basically turned most spellcasters into damage turrets or brief status boosters. Half of the fun of a caster is doing useful stuff outside of combat. The only way to make PF2 work for casters overall is to houserule durations back to what they were in PF1 in many cases.
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 29, 2023, 06:15:45 PM
Talk about low effort threads :P
PF IS the same core mechanic (1d20+ mods) as WoTC game. PF has always been WoTC game version 3.75.
Which spreads faster: Miracle Whip or mayo?
(https://media.tenor.com/tEG1YVIlXHkAAAAM/duh-face-duh.gif)
PF2 is pretty different from PF1. They basically tried to mix D&D 4E with D&D 5E. It didn't work.