Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1078306No idea. All I know is discontinuing the PF1 line would mean the death of the company.

PF1e will stop having new content.

Now you understand everyone's pessimism.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1078273D&D 5e itself takes cues from older editions.  It's step back in design, nothing in it is new, NOT A THING.  

That's obviously not true. Advantage/Disadvantage is new, and pretty much a Killer App. Bounded Accuracy and the +2 to +6 Proficiency system is new. The Epic Boon advancement with the Level 20 cap is new. Short Rest classes vs Long Rest classes is partly new. Bonus Action system is new. Inspiration is new. I'm sure there's more new stuff too.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1078273Sticking you fingers into your ears and screaming at the top of your lungs, "LA LA LA!" doesn't change that the evidence is all around you.  But let me break it down for you one more time, my Kiwi friend.

First Pathfinder, the main reason it was well received was because it wasn't 4e.  It was another version of 3.5, which they didn't want to leave.  They wanted TO STAY.  And boy did they.  Made up a bunch of lies about 4e LONG before it came out, long before anyone even KNEW what 4e was about.  Because it was going to be DIFFERENT.

D&D 5e itself takes cues from older editions.  It's step back in design, nothing in it is new, NOT A THING.  Because they knew that changing the formula was a bad idea.  Hell, they got PUNDIT, a vocal OSR proponent to make suggestions and he's CLAIMED that he used his older edition knowledge to help define the edition.

And OSR is OLD School Revival/Renaissance (AKA REBIRTH) which is using the OLDER editions and bringing them BACK.

All the evidence you need.  But we all know you, and your kind, will simply ignore this, twist this into something more into your little paradigm, or whatever, so you don't have to accept the truth:  Gamers HATE change.  More than the average human being.

Well luckily for me and my kind we know bullshit when someone tries to serve it up to us.  Like for instance the fact that 4e failed because of some kind of conspiracy against it.  I mean you may as well say that it failed because Flat Earth Gamers conspired with the Reptile People and the Illuminati to bring it down because that is at least more entertaining.

Take your claim that Gamers moved to Pathfinder because they did not want to stop playing 3.5.  How do you square that circle?  These people that are so resistant to change that they conspire to bring down the peoples edition and yet at the same time so fickle that they immediately change when the new hotness appears.  And I am supposed to be the one going Lalala.

Quote from: Mistwell;1078269Dude, there isn't going to be a study, or data released by game companies, on this topic. I've made a case for why I think this is so, and it's not a refutation that you have not seen enough evidence

The average Gamer is far too smart to fall for that kind of argument.  A new edition every eight years and at the same time too stubborn to change?  Sell your bridge in the next town.

Quote from: S'mon;1078314That's obviously not true. Advantage/Disadvantage is new, and pretty much a Killer App. Bounded Accuracy and the +2 to +6 Proficiency system is new. The Epic Boon advancement with the Level 20 cap is new. Short Rest classes vs Long Rest classes is partly new. Bonus Action system is new. Inspiration is new. I'm sure there's more new stuff too.

Facts have no place in this discussion.  The Average Gamer has no need of your facts or your badges!

Quote from: S'mon;1078314That's obviously not true. Advantage/Disadvantage is new, and pretty much a Killer App. Bounded Accuracy and the +2 to +6 Proficiency system is new. The Epic Boon advancement with the Level 20 cap is new. Short Rest classes vs Long Rest classes is partly new. Bonus Action system is new. Inspiration is new. I'm sure there's more new stuff too.

No it's not.  How??  Wow.  No idea that you hadn't played older editions.  Oh well.  Given all the screaming that people do whenever a new edition comes out tells me all I want to know.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1078321No it's not.  How??  Wow.  No idea that you hadn't played older editions.  Oh well.  Given all the screaming that people do whenever a new edition comes out tells me all I want to know.

You seem to be spiralling into insanity...

Quote from: S'mon;1078314That's obviously not true. Advantage/Disadvantage is new, and pretty much a Killer App.

I accept that being the case (though it's basically just a reroll, an old concept). But then again it's another one of those squint-your-eyes-and-keep-them-squinted mechanics that D&D is chock-full of: replacing precise modifiers with a sorta-kinda-fits reroll.

If people want simpler games, alright. I find it only ironic that, while now being a nerd has become more socially acceptable (with Big Bang Theory and all), more people readily call themselves nerds and engage in a supposedly nerdish hobby, they're all the while muddying what makes the hobby nerdish to begin with: numbers and tables. The old divide between nerds and "normal people" isn't gone: it only got more blurry.

As far as I am concerned: if anyone can't solve higher order differential equations in actual play, they've got no business being in my hobby. Get out, you filthy casual.

Spoiler

I can't myself, I'm the algebraic type.

Quote from: S'mon;1078314(snip) The Epic Boon advancement with the Level 20 cap is new. (snip)

That reminds me of the Epic rules in 3E's Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

Quote from: S'mon;1078314That's obviously not true. Advantage/Disadvantage is new, and pretty much a Killer App. Bounded Accuracy and the +2 to +6 Proficiency system is new. The Epic Boon advancement with the Level 20 cap is new. Short Rest classes vs Long Rest classes is partly new. Bonus Action system is new. Inspiration is new. I'm sure there's more new stuff too.

Best/Worst of two rolls isn't new; even to D&D. It featured in a number 4E feats/powers throughout its run.

The proficiency system is just 4Es 1/2 level bonuses set to 1/4 level. It also "coincidentally" lines up exactly with the gap between good and bad saves in 3e. All bounded accuracy did was remove the "noise" that having everything steadily improve caused.

Check out the initial epic level rules for 3e as they appeared in the 3e FR Campaign Setting for a similar take on epic boons.

Short vs. Long Rest classes also appeared in 4E via the Essentials Line and the more general Spellcaster (Long Rest) vs. Warrior classes (limited only by hit point reserves) has existed since OD&D.

Bonus Actions are just the 3e Swift Action/4E Minor Action with a different name.

Inspiration is a mythical creature I've never seen a single DM actually use, but even if they did it's basically just a GM controlled Action Point system.

5e is a giant mass of "greatest hits" mechanics mixed with renamed/cloaked versions of Mearls understanding of 4E mechanics (see Essentials). It is not new or different and the fact that it isn't is actually one of its chief selling points.

Innovation and Nostalgia rarely integrate well.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078354I accept that being the case (though it's basically just a reroll, an old concept). But then again it's another one of those squint-your-eyes-and-keep-them-squinted mechanics that D&D is chock-full of: replacing precise modifiers with a sorta-kinda-fits reroll.

That said, there IS a specifically calculable mathematical benefit/penalty to "roll twice, use best/worst" in terms of probabilities. The only thing it removes is the fiddly stacking of multiple static modifiers.

In testing my own system I also found there's a HUGE psychological impact to using an advantage/disadvantage system over static modifiers. That second roll with advantage is like a "saving throw vs. failure" and because people tend to remember outliers rather than the norms, what people remember is the huge endorphin rush when they rolled like crap, then either remembered or were reminded they had advantage and then rolled again and did really well (maybe even a crit). The same goes if you've inflicted disadvantage on an enemy and the GM crits, but you remind them it had disadvantage (because the GM legit forgot) and that crit on you turned into a whiff.

It also makes occasions when a modifier gets forgotten a LOT easier to manage because you don't have to remember the original roll; you just roll again (and you only NEED to do that if re-roll might change the outcome... you don't need to reroll for disadvantage if it's already a miss or for advantage when it's already a hit).

Precision is only useful in a game if it adds to the fun. For most people keeping track of a bunch of +/-1-2 modifiers isn't fun. By contrast the bigger, but more variable, modifier that advantage/disadvantage provides, the tactile engagement of rolling more dice and the "save vs. failure" endorphin rushes and outlier results it canncreate provide a meaningful increase in enjoyment for most people.

Nothing is new under the sun.

Specially, not in D&D, the biggest RPG around. You leave it to smaller games to test the waters (or splatbooks, "Skills & Powers", etc.), and you take what's more successful.

4e was full of innovations, certainly the most innovative so far (with the exception of the originals, of course), and it alienated half the fans or more.

5e is greatest hits, yes, and there is a reason this are the greatest hits.

In fact, most RPGs feature very little innovation over different editions. See GURPS, CoC, etc.

PF2 will not go well IMO.

Well one point for PF2e by that logic is that it doesn't do anything innovative.

Quote from: Chris24601;1078368That said, there IS a specifically calculable mathematical benefit/penalty to "roll twice, use best/worst" in terms of probabilities. The only thing it removes is the fiddly stacking of multiple static modifiers.

That's the problem: it makes modifiers uniform. There isn't a half Advantage or a Double Advantage. And if there were, things would become fiddly again.

Quote from: Chris24601;1078368Precision is only useful in a game if it adds to the fun.

The problem with imprecision is that it robs some of us of all the fun. Precision isn't so much about adding fun but about preventing unfun. That's what I meant by D&D being chock-full of mechanics where you got to squint your eyes and not look too closely. For me, a lot of D&D is like this:



Sure, one can respond "Dude, don't overthink it, lmao" and occasionally I don't mind nonsensical Hollywood action either - but generally I go for different experiences in role-playing and film.

Quote from: Chris24601;1078368For most people keeping track of a bunch of +/-1-2 modifiers isn't fun.

Entry-level gamers and casuals, LOL! I'm only joking, of course - although these form at least part of that crowd of gamers. For me, personally, that is a part of role-playing as essential as speaking in character or the GM adding color to his narration of a scene. It's a core activity, an important ingredient without which the experience feels incomplete. Part of the reason why PbtA, for example, could never be my go-to system: it falls short on the gaming side.

Quote from: Chris24601;1078368By contrast the bigger, but more variable, modifier that advantage/disadvantage provides, the tactile engagement of rolling more dice and the "save vs. failure" endorphin rushes and outlier results it canncreate provide a meaningful increase in enjoyment for most people.

I think it's pretty bad. Not only is it imprecise - if you know you have Advantage and you succeed on the first roll, you've never had a serious brush with failure. You can circumvent that by rolling both dice at the same time but I'm observing a lot of people on Youtube not doing that - it's completely boring on Critical Role, for example.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1078354If people want simpler games, alright. I find it only ironic that, while now being a nerd has become more socially acceptable (with Big Bang Theory and all), more people readily call themselves nerds and engage in a supposedly nerdish hobby, they're all the while muddying what makes the hobby nerdish to begin with: numbers and tables. The old divide between nerds and "normal people" isn't gone: it only got more blurry.

Not all nerds are into math optimization. When my buddies and I started playing D&D in 1979, none of us were very good at math or interested in numbers and tables. We played because we liked Conan, Lord of the Rings, maps, monsters, and making stories in our minds. I have friends who have been playing D&D for 40 years who don't know what HP bonus a 16 Con gives.