Shasarak, thank you for all the links. I'll be reading through the rules just for yanking cool tidbits.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1097921Holy God Almighty! That character sheet burned out my retinas!

It's an OSR recruiting device!

Quote from: Shasarak;1097923It is indeed a +3 character sheet of burning.

+5, but I love it.

Quote from: Shasarak;1097963Dont believe me because I will not be able to play a game until, well next week will be character creation night I guess, the 15th at the earliest.

Why not check out the links to a couple of reviews of PF2 further up the thread.  

**edited for snark**

I'll wait for real reviews, rather than the hand picked reviews from people given it by Paizo (Like Morrus and Ben Reece, both of whom are about as excited going in as you are and Paizo knew that which is why they sent them early review copies for free publicity), or the fanbois who waited in line at GenCon just to get their hands on an early copy. You know, reviews which don't start with squealing all-caps multiple exclamation-mark comments about how excited they are the book arrived. Real reviews will take a month or so, and some sessions played.

If you want real reviews then why not try these ones:  Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

PF2 overtakes D&D5 in two years.

Remember THIS.

When they get tired of 5e --- it was 4e's *blah blah* that made Paizo king. 5E has a lot of *blah blah* chargen & play.

Jason is maybe the smartest developer in tabletop gaming (resume uninserted).

Edit: Why?

Paizo will release books faster. More "stuff". I ran a game with 5e players HUNGRY for more material.

Paizo will address combat & spellcasting options faster than 5e with supplements.

If Paizo gets a "Path of War" like supplement first, which they will --- more.

Paizo is all about supplements. That principle drove the franchise. 5e is slower, to their detriment.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098032PF2 overtakes D&D5 in two years.

Remember THIS.

When they get tired of 5e --- it was 4e's *blah blah* that made Paizo king. 5E has a lot of *blah blah* chargen & play.

Jason is maybe the smartest developer in tabletop gaming (resume uninserted).

I'd take that bet.  Pathfinder is more complex without that complexity paying off.  You spend 4 hours on character options to end up with a +2 to ride checks you don't care about.  I don't care for either system, but Pathfinder came out at the perfect time.  They had a lot of good will and some of that has eroded.  They have the same fans they had for Pathfinder, but not a lot to draw in new interest.  This is a cash infusion as they stumble on in a death spiral.  They can keep milking those superfans for a long time, but age and inevitable disagreements will take their toll.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1098033I'd take that bet.  Pathfinder is more complex without that complexity paying off.  You spend 4 hours on character options to end up with a +2 to ride checks you don't care about.  I don't care for either system, but Pathfinder came out at the perfect time.  They had a lot of good will and some of that has eroded.  They have the same fans they had for Pathfinder, but not a lot to draw in new interest.  This is a cash infusion as they stumble on in a death spiral.  They can keep milking those superfans for a long time, but age and inevitable disagreements will take their toll.

I just made a character and I can assure you that it does not take 4 hours to make and your choices are more then a +2 to ride.

You can really tell who has not even bothered looking at Pathfinder 2.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098032PF2 overtakes D&D5 in two years.

Remember THIS.

It's undeniably true Palladium Fantasy 2e is way more fun than 5e, but that's a big bet!

As for Paizo, I do agree that Paizo 2.0 has the advantage of "new hotness" and new gamers who began with 5e 3 to 5 years ago might be drawn by the allure of something new and crunchier.

We will see.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098032Paizo will release books faster. More "stuff". I ran a game with 5e players HUNGRY for more material.

I actively discourage such players from joining my games because supplements are rarely playtested and so often ludicrous with imbalance. However, I know they exist in droves and those players will be drawn to Paizo's crack mill.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1098033You spend 4 hours on character options to end up with a +2 to ride checks you don't care about.

It's 30 minutes of chargen, 2 hours of choosing one of the 84 genders and 90 minutes min/maxing your pronoun power combo.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1098045It's 30 minutes of chargen, 2 hours of choosing one of the 84 genders and 90 minutes min/maxing your pronoun power combo.

I think you forgot to include the Character Trigger section.

I'll take the bet against PF2e overtaking 5e in 2 years.

I'll go farther and bet that PF2e dies down after one year. Not quite to Starfinder levels but enough that "Uncategorized" and Call of Cthulhu soundly beat it on the Roll20 number of campaigns report for 2021.

5e is feeding people into other games based on all available data while still pulling in enough new people that it seems like people just play d&d.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1098045It's 30 minutes of chargen, 2 hours of choosing one of the 84 genders and 90 minutes min/maxing your pronoun power combo.

Well played, sir!!!

Any decent written reviews NOT written by the sycophants on ENWorld out yet?

Yeah, there are heaps of them.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098032PF2 overtakes D&D5 in two years.
When they get tired of 5e --- it was 4e's *blah blah* that made Paizo king. 5E has a lot of *blah blah* chargen & play.

Which is never a good indicator as the same people who liked playing PF 1E complained about it many flaws with some going to 5E as to them it was a faster and easier game to play, run and create characters for.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098032Jason is maybe the smartest developer in tabletop gaming (resume uninserted).

Very highly debatable. This is the same company who when told the flaws of their gun rules during playtest left them in when the final rules were released. The company instead of releasing an optional book on fixing the flaws of 3.5. instead sat on their collective asses and let their main competitor learn from their mistakes and take away their market share and fanbase. To the point that they needed to release a new edition. I concede a good rpg developer the smartest not by any stretch of the imagination. If he was the company would not be getting woke and possibly broke. I just ordered their new Sandpoint book and from what I see in the reviews on Amazon Sandpoint is now thee equivalent of an SJW. Diveristy and Inclusivity aside everyone seems to get along. Including the new Goblin population in town.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098032Paizo will release books faster. More "stuff". I ran a game with 5e players HUNGRY for more material.

Again highly debatable as while some fans want more material others hate the constant stream of sourcebooks and supplements. Instead of blaming themselves for being incapable of not being the new material. They try to make themselves out to be some kind of victims where they are "forced" to buy because Paizo releases more product. Even them more products does not always equal quality product.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098032Paizo will address combat & spellcasting options faster than 5e with supplements.

They released Pathfinder Unchained which was a book that was both a test of PF 2E and Starfinder and an attempt to fix some of the flaws of PF was released almost seven years after the PF 1E core. Some like myself were asking them
to fix the flaws pretty much the first year intp PF 1E and Jason essentially accused us of having some kind of personal agenda. With the Paizo devs being very much hit and miss on how they fix the issues of the rules. Either they errata something into being fucking useless or leave what actually needs errata alone. Even after the fans tell the,m about. No proper middle ground at all. I will concede maybe with the new edition they will be better at this. I'm not holding my breath.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098032If Paizo gets a "Path of War" like supplement first, which they will --- more.

IF they get such a supplement. With 5E as it is gives martial and melee classes nice things baked into the core. So unlike PF, 5E as an rpg has no need to prove that Fighters are given more options. Nor any such need of an supplement.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1098032Paizo is all about supplements. That principle drove the franchise. 5e is slower, to their detriment.

One can make money with a quality rpg and lesser release schedule as has been shown with Wotc and 5E. As well see the issue above too many or too little new books and people complain about it. One can't win that kind of battle with the consumer. Most of the PF 1E books were good the majority rot away on my library gathering dust. More options is nice and all they also most be quality options. With Paizo it was less is sometimes more. If it was not the Archetypes that were not worth the paper they were printed on and only good for toilet paper. It was the stubborn refusal to find the proper middle ground when developing more new options. Fluff at least with PF 1E very much won over crunch. No matter how much flavorful prose one writes about a +1 bonus or very situational +3 bonus from a feat or class ability. It still is just going to be a +1 bonus to hit or skill bonus. While that +3 bonus is good having it work when two other classes have the same teamwork feat, surrounded by a very specific enemy, at specific time during the day not so much.

I'm not saying PF 2E has no chance of beating 5E. At this point Paizo really needs to set the standard very high. Simply tossing new books with subpar options is no longer going to work. They need to show uswhy we should leave 5E to og back to playing PF 2E.