I joined a PF2 group last week. Nice people. I HATE the system, like I hated 3.5. Widgets and feats. But the social experience is worth the pain, and I don't have to GM, so it's a brain break, outside overly long chargen fiddling. The new action economy is a breeze. I just wish our GM didn't make us roll for every fucking thing. Slows down the game.

Quote from: cranebump;1103553I joined a PF2 group last week. Nice people. I HATE the system, like I hated 3.5. Widgets and feats. But the social experience is worth the pain, and I don't have to GM, so it's a brain break, outside overly long chargen fiddling. The new action economy is a breeze. I just wish our GM didn't make us roll for every fucking thing. Slows down the game.

Yeah I feel ya. I'm in the same boat, but I'm the GM instead and feel obligated to at least see the short scenario through. I'm slowly losing faith in the system though and I actually don't imagine seeing it last long term unless they make some big changes. Parts of the system are unnecessarily clumsy (concealed, undetected, unnoticed, hidden, observed, invisible, anyone?) and there's some significant balance issues too I won't get into.

I actually ran a level 0 session. Just HP from ancestry. No class features and only 5 GP. We got 5 characters done in an hour and had 4 hours of play. Encounters were just -1 creatures. Everyone got their first level between session 1 and 2. I'd recommend it, cause it lets new players learn the system first, instead of their unique abilities.

All things considered it's only been two weeks so far and we've done a lot and it's been fun but mostly on account of the group. I definitely feel the grind when it comes to combat. I just think it's slow and not because I'm running it slow, it just is slow. It's like high level play with the 3 action economy and the feat heavy characters (even for level 1) but it starts from level 1, I don't imagine it getting much slower or faster given that becoming accustomed to the rules is just going to be replaced with added complexity instead. Everyone getting max hit points and pretty much two levels worth makes combat last longer since, for the most part, everything does about the same damage as previous editions at 1st level.

With regard to your last point. I've also seen most GMs make players roll for everything, part and parcel of a system that attempts to have rules for every situation. Most GMs however arn't doing secret rolls (I do) and that really does make a difference.

Welp got book 3 of Age of ashes and it seems to be confirming a lot of my fears as well (Bestiary is pretty much almost all monsters from 1e pathfinder one or two of them from the 1st bestiary) So yeah seems like a lot of 2E is buying back stuff you already had in 1e rather than getting new things (In the case of bestiary monsters buying em back twice if you get Ap's)

I have to agree about the intro adventure "Hellknight Hill". I didn't much care for it. The players become level 2 after one elaborate but minor encounter, then go through a series of 3 pretty standard, boilerplate dungeons. The first two dungeons look to be on the easy side with a more challenging finale. Massive walls of text throughout as in other Paizo adventures. I didn't try the other adventure that was released.

I also agree that converting other adventures was pretty easy. We started the playtest with two DCC adventures and I just subbed in the closest Bestiary monster to whatever was in the encounter, and stayed within the PF2 encounter budgets. Use the DC chart for traps and other challenges that don't involve a monster or NPC, etc.

Quote from: Kevin197;1103646Welp got book 3 of Age of ashes and it seems to be confirming a lot of my fears as well (Bestiary is pretty much almost all monsters from 1e pathfinder one or two of them from the 1st bestiary) So yeah seems like a lot of 2E is buying back stuff you already had in 1e rather than getting new things (In the case of bestiary monsters buying em back twice if you get Ap's)

Book 3 already?  My book 2 has not even arrived yet.

Quote from: Graytung;1103575Yeah I feel ya. I'm in the same boat, but I'm the GM instead and feel obligated to at least see the short scenario through. I'm slowly losing faith in the system though and I actually don't imagine seeing it last long term unless they make some big changes. Parts of the system are unnecessarily clumsy (concealed, undetected, unnoticed, hidden, observed, invisible, anyone?) and there's some significant balance issues too I won't get into.

I actually ran a level 0 session. Just HP from ancestry. No class features and only 5 GP. We got 5 characters done in an hour and had 4 hours of play. Encounters were just -1 creatures. Everyone got their first level between session 1 and 2. I'd recommend it, cause it lets new players learn the system first, instead of their unique abilities.

All things considered it's only been two weeks so far and we've done a lot and it's been fun but mostly on account of the group. I definitely feel the grind when it comes to combat. I just think it's slow and not because I'm running it slow, it just is slow. It's like high level play with the 3 action economy and the feat heavy characters (even for level 1) but it starts from level 1, I don't imagine it getting much slower or faster given that becoming accustomed to the rules is just going to be replaced with added complexity instead. Everyone getting max hit points and pretty much two levels worth makes combat last longer since, for the most part, everything does about the same damage as previous editions at 1st level.

With regard to your last point. I've also seen most GMs make players roll for everything, part and parcel of a system that attempts to have rules for every situation. Most GMs however arn't doing secret rolls (I do) and that really does make a difference.

Exactly! I even mentioned, at one point, when I was making a search roll, "Oh, shouldn't you make that one?" to the DM, but he demurred. Okey doke then. I also asked if the system had anything like take 10 or 20. Nobody seemed to know what that was. I stopped asking questions after that.

Anyone not expecting the same material to be recycled again with PF 2E is going out of their way to be both purposefully naive and pretending to be incredibly stupid. Unless one is in their first year in the hobby it is only to be expected.

I dislike some of what went in to PF 2E and next to Rifts Ultimate Edition it is the second time in the hobby that I just can't be bothered to buy it. Let alone run it though possibly play it. Unlike RUE which I stupidly threw away the receipt after purchasing it. PF 2E does not scratch my gaming itch like PF 1E can. Then again getting older and more responsible. After seeing my share of new rpg editions saying something along lines of "did you see they are coming out with the same material again :eek:!" Sorry no I don't do fake naive and/ or stupid and I don't respect anyone who does so either.

Quote from: cranebump;1103714Exactly! I even mentioned, at one point, when I was making a search roll, "Oh, shouldn't you make that one?" to the DM, but he demurred. Okey doke then. I also asked if the system had anything like take 10 or 20. Nobody seemed to know what that was. I stopped asking questions after that.

There is no taking 10 or 20 in PF 2.  There are skill feats that you can take that give you a minimum roll called Assurance (or some such away from book atm)

Quote from: cranebump;1103553I joined a PF2 group last week. Nice people. I HATE the system, like I hated 3.5. Widgets and feats. But the social experience is worth the pain, and I don't have to GM, so it's a brain break, outside overly long chargen fiddling. The new action economy is a breeze. I just wish our GM didn't make us roll for every fucking thing. Slows down the game.

Quote from: cranebump;1103714Exactly! I even mentioned, at one point, when I was making a search roll, "Oh, shouldn't you make that one?" to the DM, but he demurred. Okey doke then. I also asked if the system had anything like take 10 or 20. Nobody seemed to know what that was. I stopped asking questions after that.

Sounds instead of "Roll to Failure" (from the Alexandrian, too many rolls leading to inevitable failure), it is "Roll to Exhaustion," where everyone rolls so much that the session ends accomplishing little and thus save the GM from prep or improv. Eventually the party'll succumb and meekly follows the Adventure Path without poking too hard at the prop scenery, or asking the NPC actors unscripted questions. As long as the Cheetos flow and the company is fun, however, what does it matter?

Yeah, I only read this topic to see how my low expectations are fulfilled. Thankfully comments like these remind me why I am happily not involved with PF. Widgeteering is sorta no longer my thing... I got old.

I hear a giant sucking sound....

Quote from: Opaopajr;1103748Sounds instead of "Roll to Failure" (from the Alexandrian, too many rolls leading to inevitable failure), it is "Roll to Exhaustion," where everyone rolls so much that the session ends accomplishing little and thus save the GM from prep or improv. Eventually the party'll succumb and meekly follows the Adventure Path without poking too hard at the prop scenery, or asking the NPC actors unscripted questions. As long as the Cheetos flow and the company is fun, however, what does it matter?

Yeah, I only read this topic to see how my low expectations are fulfilled. Thankfully comments like these remind me why I am happily not involved with PF. Widgeteering is sorta no longer my thing... I got old.

I'm with you, believe me. There were instances where we rolled until someone succeeded, so I was thinking, "Well, why not just rule we succeed then?" I don't think that's the rule system's fault. I think it's a matter of a GM that hasn't run anything dissimilar. But, yeah--good people, so it's minor. I went around giving the other PCs nicknames (or rather, my snarky rogue did). Had a warrior fumble and hit himself in the teeth, so he now "Gragnar Toothbreaker!":-)

Quote from: Shasarak;1103747There is no taking 10 or 20 in PF 2.  There are skill feats that you can take that give you a minimum roll called Assurance (or some such away from book atm)

Guess I better get those, since I'm playing the skill monkey.

Quote from: cranebump;1103922Guess I better get those, since I'm playing the skill monkey.

Just be careful what you get it for. The DC for certain tasks begins at 15 (opening locks, first aid, treat wounds, and just about anything using DC by level above 0, such as identifying magic).

This is because assurance will only get you a 13 at level 1 and 14 at level 2 (unless you get assurance for a skill you have Expert training in).

I'd say it's a trap until level 3.

Also leave it to Paizo in there attempts to be more inclusive at the same time manage to trip up and offend.

I'm looking through the changes to the monster type mechanics. It's pretty hilarious. Paizo basically copied the monster types mechanic from 5e, then did everything they could to make it overly complicated.

Paizo added a "monitor" type for extraplanar creatures neutral with regard to good and evil. This includes the TN aeons, LN axiomites, and CN proteans. Oh, and the axiomites and inevitables have been merged into the aeons, so effectively there's zero cosmological distinction between LN and TN now. Way to stay consistent, Paizo.

Oh, and unlike slaad being aberrations in 5e because that makes total sense (not being sarcastic here, I'm serious), the proteans and other chaotic entities are not aberrations. I have no idea why, but that's Paizo for you.

Paizo's taxonomy doesn't have a monstrosity type, but it does have a beast type (separate from the animal type, dear God) that includes centaurs, chimeras, and winter wolves.

Paizo's world building when it comes to something as simple as monster taxonomy is terrible. And the subtype bloat has become vastly worse than it ever was before. There are 81 creature "families" in the core rules alone.

Dear God.