I can hardly wrap my head around that.

So, ranged weapons are SLOWER - but, during SURPRISE, they are a lot FASTER.

Also, during surprise, speed factor doesn't matter.

I'm not sure there is a reason to ever surprise anyone with a dagger. I might be missing something, but thieves should be using 2H-swords for that.

EDIT: which, coming back to the theme of the thread, means... there are rules I dislike not because they are bad/boring, but because they simply DON'T FIT with the rest of the rules.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on October 09, 2023, 12:11:38 PM
Correct. So missile fire users have to win initiative in order to disrupt a spell.

Quote from: Scooter on October 09, 2023, 12:19:09 PM
If the spell is only a couple of segments to cast. If a whole round, no

So, if Larry Longbow's side wins initiative versus Charlie Caster, then his ranged attacks will resolve prior to Charlie's casting- his casting time is ignored.  He could easily disrupt Charlie in this case.

If Larry Longbow's side doesn't win initiative though- say his side rolled a 1- then we compare the casting time to Charlie's winning die.  That's the segment Charlie needs to have beaten (so to actually get a spell off reliably versus a ranged attacking enemy, Charlie is rooting to win the initiative with the largest possible roll).  Of the 36 possible combinations, Larry gets to definitely attack first 15/36 times (that's how often his side wins initiative, assuming everyone is just rolling normal d6s).  Here's how the math breaks down for when Charlie chooses a (first column) segment casting time spell, with the percentage being the chance Larry gets to interrupt with his longbow.
Casting time 0 or 1: 42% of the time.
Casting time 2: 44.4% of the time.
Casting time 3: 50% of the time.
Casting time 4: 58.3% of the time.
Casting time 5: 69.4% of the time.
Casting time 6: 83.3% of the time.
Casting time 7 or more: Larry always gets a chance to interrupt with his longbow.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 09, 2023, 03:17:12 PM
So, ranged weapons are SLOWER - but, during SURPRISE, they are a lot FASTER.

There's not really any great general rules.

QuoteAlso, during surprise, speed factor doesn't matter.

Speed factor doesn't matter most of the time.  It doesn't matter if you are charging, it doesn't matter if you win initiative versus a caster, it doesn't matter if you lose initiative versus another guy in melee with you, it doesn't matter during rounds you are moving and only weapon lengths resolve attack ordering.  Speed factor is always added by a special rule and always in a specific way.

QuoteI'm not sure there is a reason to ever surprise anyone with a dagger. I might be missing something, but thieves should be using 2H-swords for that.

Page 19 PHB bans thieves from using two-handed swords.

QuoteEDIT: which, coming back to the theme of the thread, means... there are rules I dislike not because they are bad/boring, but because they simply DON'T FIT with the rest of the rules.

I'm actually not sure if AD&D 1e initiative rules even count as bad.  It looks like two competing initiative systems, neither used by Gygax at the time, got glued together.  As a result, the by-the-book initiative system is a lot of crazy stuff, and I don't know if it's fair to call it a bad set of rules.  It's more like an emergent pile of behaviors that everyone houserules.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 09, 2023, 03:17:12 PM
So, ranged weapons are SLOWER - but, during SURPRISE, they are a lot FASTER.

In my prior post I said that there's no general rules here.  But lets give some examples as to why.
Lets say your side has 3 surprise segments to act in (this is a lot of surprise segments!).
On your team is you, Eric Diaz the Unencumbered 13th Level Fighter With Two Daggers.  Also is your buddy Larry Longbow,who has arrows at the ready, from the other examples.  The encounter begins with the enemy a bit over ten feet away.

On the first surprise segment, you close distance, and Larry Longbow fires six arrows.
On the second surprise segment, you attack four times and Larry Longbow fires six arrows.
On the third surprise segment, you attack four times and Larry Longbow fires six arrows.

This is because of this inscrutable line from page 64 DMG:

QuoteEven if distance prevents striking with weapons, the discharge of arrows, bolts or
hond-hurled weapons is permissible at three times the normal rate providing the weapon/missiles are ready, otherwise at normal rates for rounds.

The normal firing rate for a round is two arrows, so Larry is gonna shoot six.  You are getting four attacks because you are dual wielding (so there's some penalties to hit or whatever), and are normally entitled to two attack per round from being a 13th level fighter.

So it's true that ranged weapons are "faster" in surprise segments, but it's because of this bizarre haste rule that allows for a baseline firing rate of one arrow per second for the entire duration of surprise- but only if you had readied the arrows or whatever.

Once surprise is over, melee weapons do have advantages in melee versus a caster compared to ranged weapons.  Mostly the advantages come into play if you, the melee weapon user, do not have initiative or a tie, and are using a fast weapon, and the enemy caster is using a spell with a short casting time.

Quote from: Venka on October 09, 2023, 03:14:45 PM

Nope!  Only under very specific circumstances is this true.  First, you're talking about the "speed factor of the weapon", which means that we are talking about one or more melee weapons attacking a caster.  For simplicity's sake, lets assume we aren't talking about the surprise segments, and we'll assume that the melee weapon user is already within melee range (the charge mechanics require a different mechanic).

Lets assume Sam Shortsword (weapon speed factor 3) is trying to attack Charlie Caster.  Sam's side rolled 5 on initiative and Charlie's side rolled 4 on initiative.  Charlie had decided to cast invisibility (casting time 2 segments).  Does Charlie get to cast before Sam attacks?  No!  In this case, winning initiative guarantees that Sam gets to attack Charlie first.  If the melee attacker wins initiative, weapon speed factor is ignored.
Ok, what about if Sam's side rolled 1 on initiative, and Charlie's side rolled 6.  That seems like the best possible result for Charlie here, right?  6 is the highest number on the initiative die, and 1 is the lowest.  What we do here is take 3 (weapon speed factor) minus 1 (losing initiative die), and get 2.  Charlie finishes his cast as Sam attacks him.  Sam may get the hit in, but Charlie is invisible.  What if Sam, who just missed interrupting the initiative, had rolled a 2 instead of a 1?  Then we would have had 1, and Sam WOULD have interrupted (assuming he hits).  Similarly with if Sam's side had rolled a 3 (yielding 0), or a 4 (yielding 1).  But a 5 would have yielded the same 2 (and therefore a tie) as the 1 did.  This is because you treat negative numbers as positive on this math.   If the melee attacker loses initiative, weapon speed factor is part of a goofy calculation and he may go first, simultaneously, or after the spell is cast.
Ok, what if they TIED?  Both initiative dice the same?
In the case of a tie, the short sword (weapon speed factor 3) will strike after the spell cast (casting time 2), in a direct comparison.  But ONLY in the case of a tie.

QuoteA quick weapon vs  a long casting time spell could strike first even if the weapon user loses initiative.

Yes, but again it's strange.  If your quick weapon is a dagger (weapon speed 2), and the caster's side won initiative with a 6, then your possible losing scores of 1 through 5 would be as such:
1: 2-1 = 1, beats 2 or longer
2: 2-2 = 2, beats 1 or longer
3: 2-3 = 1, beats 2 or longer
4: 2-4 = 2, beats 3 or longer
5: 2-5 = 3, beats 4 or longer.
But if your "quick weapon" is a morning star (weapon speed 7, not very quick), you could still interrupt a lot of high level spells:
1: 7-1 = 6, beats 7 or longer
2: 7-2 = 5, beats 6 or longer
3: 7-3 = 4, beats 5 or longer
4: 7-4 = 3, beats 4 or longer
5: 7-5 = 2, beats 3 or longer.

Note that this is melee.  Ranged weapons are a whole different thing (they don't have a weapon speed factor at all).  Charging is a whole different thing.  The surprise segment prior to initiative are a whole different thing.  Etc.

Thanks for the walk down memory lane.  It has been a few decades since I played in a 1e campaign

All these AD&D initiative replies make me feel like I'm back in junior high.

Quote from: Venka on October 09, 2023, 04:30:18 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 09, 2023, 03:17:12 PM
So, ranged weapons are SLOWER - but, during SURPRISE, they are a lot FASTER.

In my prior post I said that there's no general rules here.  But lets give some examples as to why.
Lets say your side has 3 surprise segments to act in (this is a lot of surprise segments!).
On your team is you, Eric Diaz the Unencumbered 13th Level Fighter With Two Daggers.  Also is your buddy Larry Longbow,who has arrows at the ready, from the other examples.  The encounter begins with the enemy a bit over ten feet away.

On the first surprise segment, you close distance, and Larry Longbow fires six arrows.
On the second surprise segment, you attack four times and Larry Longbow fires six arrows.
On the third surprise segment, you attack four times and Larry Longbow fires six arrows.

This is because of this inscrutable line from page 64 DMG:

QuoteEven if distance prevents striking with weapons, the discharge of arrows, bolts or
hond-hurled weapons is permissible at three times the normal rate providing the weapon/missiles are ready, otherwise at normal rates for rounds.

The normal firing rate for a round is two arrows, so Larry is gonna shoot six.  You are getting four attacks because you are dual wielding (so there's some penalties to hit or whatever), and are normally entitled to two attack per round from being a 13th level fighter.

So it's true that ranged weapons are "faster" in surprise segments, but it's because of this bizarre haste rule that allows for a baseline firing rate of one arrow per second for the entire duration of surprise- but only if you had readied the arrows or whatever.

Once surprise is over, melee weapons do have advantages in melee versus a caster compared to ranged weapons.  Mostly the advantages come into play if you, the melee weapon user, do not have initiative or a tie, and are using a fast weapon, and the enemy caster is using a spell with a short casting time.

Interesting stuff, thanks!

AD&D is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma to me, so it is always fun to try and understand how it should work.

EDIT: TBF, I think the 2-daggers for a fighter stuff is a bit unlikely, since they aren't great weapons. I don't remember if sword-and-dagger is a thing in AD&D. A 13th-level fighter would probably be using whatever magic weapon he found in his travels.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on October 09, 2023, 05:35:52 PM
Interesting stuff, thanks!

No problem.  AD&D 1e initiative is more meme than system at this point, but it is technically a self-consistent system.  On Dragonsfoot they also kind of worked out how Gygax himself was running initiative decades after the fact (he posted and told them what he was doing- he obviously didn't use what was written in the book by the 2000s, and probably honestly not even in the 70s).  But basically AD&D 1e initiative takes houserules to not be just super confusing.

AD&D 2e, on the other hand, has a well defined initiative system- though granted, it loses a lot of the interesting stuff.  Weapons caring about speed factors and length actually is a really neat design goal.

QuoteEDIT: TBF, I think the 2-daggers for a fighter stuff is a bit unlikely, since they aren't great weapons.

My example was for simplicity's sake, but daggers can go absolutely bonkers in 1e AD&D too.  If you end up in combat versus a man with a really slow weapon, and you're using two daggers, and initiative ends up tied, there's a whole other system that lets you get extra attacks with the daggers that you wouldn't have had with a long sword and a dagger, for instance.

QuoteI don't remember if sword-and-dagger is a thing in AD&D. A 13th-level fighter would probably be using whatever magic weapon he found in his travels.

Yes to both.  I just chose daggers in that example as something you can definitely dual wield (your second weapon must always be a dagger or a hand axe).

Quote from: Venka on October 09, 2023, 07:18:53 PM
AD&D 2e, on the other hand, has a well defined initiative system- though granted, it loses a lot of the interesting stuff.  Weapons caring about speed factors and length actually is a really neat design goal.

These design goals work better in games where the combat system is less abstract. We got WOTC D&D by designers trying to stick more and more stuff that fits better in a blow by blow combat system onto the same old abstract D&D framework. It is an odd fit that never feels quite right. I don't actually use AD&D initiative by the way. I use good old B/X straight win/lose/tie rules.

Quote from: Venka on October 09, 2023, 03:14:45 PM
Lets assume Sam Shortsword (weapon speed factor 3) is trying to attack Charlie Caster.  Sam's side rolled 5 on initiative and Charlie's side rolled 4 on initiative.  Charlie had decided to cast invisibility (casting time 2 segments).  Does Charlie get to cast before Sam attacks?  No!  In this case, winning initiative guarantees that Sam gets to attack Charlie first.  If the melee attacker wins initiative, weapon speed factor is ignored.

This is correct.

QuoteOk, what about if Sam's side rolled 1 on initiative, and Charlie's side rolled 6.  That seems like the best possible result for Charlie here, right?  6 is the highest number on the initiative die, and 1 is the lowest.  What we do here is take 3 (weapon speed factor) minus 1 (losing initiative die), and get 2.  Charlie finishes his cast as Sam attacks him.  Sam may get the hit in, but Charlie is invisible.  What if Sam, who just missed interrupting the initiative, had rolled a 2 instead of a 1?  Then we would have had 1, and Sam WOULD have interrupted (assuming he hits).  Similarly with if Sam's side had rolled a 3 (yielding 0), or a 4 (yielding 1).  But a 5 would have yielded the same 2 (and therefore a tie) as the 1 did.  This is because you treat negative numbers as positive on this math.   If the melee attacker loses initiative, weapon speed factor is part of a goofy calculation and he may go first, simultaneously, or after the spell is cast.

This is also correct.

QuoteOk, what if they TIED?  Both initiative dice the same?
In the case of a tie, the short sword (weapon speed factor 3) will strike after the spell cast (casting time 2), in a direct comparison.  But ONLY in the case of a tie.

This one I'm a little uneasy with, only because melee weapon versus spell casting is a special case of a general case. The general case is any sort of melee (like monsters who don't have a weapon speed) versus spell casters. And unfortunately the general case does not come out and explicitly say what comes of ties. It tells the attacker gets to use whichever initiative is more advantageous, and so when the spell caster wins initiative, casting in melee bumps their win down to a tie. But it doesn't confirm that ties remain ties. For all I know, they could be bumped down to a loss. I mean I would tend to lean towards this is correct, but I think there can be one or two other interpretations that fit both letter and spirit of the rule that I'd hesitate to dismiss.

QuoteNote that this is melee.  Ranged weapons are a whole different thing (they don't have a weapon speed factor at all).  Charging is a whole different thing.  The surprise segment prior to initiative are a whole different thing.  Etc.

True, but I do not believe the following to be correct or supported by the Rules as Written at all:

Quote from: Venka on October 09, 2023, 03:36:01 PM
If Larry Longbow's side doesn't win initiative though- say his side rolled a 1- then we compare the casting time to Charlie's winning die.  That's the segment Charlie needs to have beaten (so to actually get a spell off reliably versus a ranged attacking enemy, Charlie is rooting to win the initiative with the largest possible roll).  Of the 36 possible combinations, Larry gets to definitely attack first 15/36 times (that's how often his side wins initiative, assuming everyone is just rolling normal d6s).  Here's how the math breaks down for when Charlie chooses a (first column) segment casting time spell, with the percentage being the chance Larry gets to interrupt with his longbow.

The thing is, the wonky rule about comparing spell casting time to some combination of weapon speeds and dice rolls is a special case for melee attacks against someone casting a spell. And even the general case that rule falls under is specifically for spell casting while in melee. That's it. There is no weird rule or exception that applies to spell casting in combat per se. Only in melee. And so a ranged weapon versus a spell caster is resolved by the initiative dice--before, after, or tied. Casting time is not a factor. Nor is adding or subtracting any losing or winning initiative die. It just follows the regular initiative rule. With one small caveat. That the missile weapon attacker gets the advantage (or disadvantage) to any Missile Attack Adjustment for very high or low Dexterity scores applied to the initiative roll.

Quote from: Venka on October 09, 2023, 04:30:18 PM
On the first surprise segment, you close distance, and Larry Longbow fires six arrows.
On the second surprise segment, you attack four times and Larry Longbow fires six arrows.
On the third surprise segment, you attack four times and Larry Longbow fires six arrows.

This is because of this inscrutable line from page 64 DMG:

QuoteEven if distance prevents striking with weapons, the discharge of arrows, bolts or
hond-hurled weapons is permissible at three times the normal rate providing the weapon/missiles are ready, otherwise at normal rates for rounds.

The normal firing rate for a round is two arrows, so Larry is gonna shoot six.  You are getting four attacks because you are dual wielding (so there's some penalties to hit or whatever), and are normally entitled to two attack per round from being a 13th level fighter.

This interpretation is hotly disputed. But I think it's perfectly clear that this is just incorrect.

The email correspondence in which Gary supposedly affirmed this interpretation, he clearly was not. He called it possible but unlikely. He did not endorse this interpretation at all, other than in the sense that the individual DM is free to do that if they want, and it wouldn't be physically impossible.

One of the more sane folks on Dragonfoot questioned this ridiculous rate of fire, ceding that people could interpret the rules to support either way, but questioned why would we assume the more extreme interpretation should be presumed true with the burden of proof placed on the more sensible. I think I know the answer for the tendency of some gamers to do that. It's because when you're looking backwards, you've got these games 1E and 2E, and they're similar in a lot of way, and for posterity we're so eager to draw out all the differences that I think there's a tendency for differences to be exaggerated. On the other hand, when 1E was written, there was no 2E, and no motivation or ability to differentiate it from 2E. So I think motivated misinterpretation of this rule after the fact is far more likely than anything like this being the original intent.

As far as looking at what the rules actually do say, the meaning of "rate" assumes a time element. The rate of fire of a long bow is 2 per round. Triple that rate on a per round basis would be 6 per round. That's literally what the rules are saying. To interpret otherwise is to assume the intent and and say we're not going to nitpick technicalities of language usage when we're clear what the intent was. Only we're not clear. That assumes the conclusion to reach the conclusion.

But the big smoking gun from the DMG is in the example of combat, it has a character using a missile weapon that was explicitly readied, and that character's side won initiative. The RoF in that case was 1, and the character had 2 surprise segments to attack, but not only did the character not get 3 shots the first segment, 3 the second, they didn't even get a second shot on the second segment. It's just not a thing.

Although if we assume this rule actually means what it says, the weapon would be boosted to 3 shots per round, which I guess might look something like segments 1, 4, and 7 (or 1, 5, 9, or something similar). THAT would be consistent with the example of the combat.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 06, 2023, 10:47:03 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on October 06, 2023, 11:07:37 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 05, 2023, 04:55:10 PM

Quote from: Brad on October 05, 2023, 03:25:25 PM
To answer the original question, the worst rules in general are some sort of meta-mechanic/economy that players can use to influence things outside of the scope of their character. I like Force Points and ASP from EABA because the character has an in-game reason for avoiding something bad (the force! he's super lucky!) but crap that allows players to literally alter the game in some way that contradicts what the DM stated would happen is just annoying and dumb. That Modiphius Conan game uses this sort of crap, that doom mechanic or whatever it is...just obnoxious. It's literally a sort of side game that directly affects the game itself, but has no true in-game rationale. I hate that crap.

I agree, these types of meta rules/currencies annoy me, too. DCC and other games have Luck, which I find fun at times but ultimately I can take it or leave it. Anything more meta than Luck hurts immersion. That's one of the reasons I did not choose Forbidden Lands for this campaign. It's got a lot of very subtle meta stuff. It's a good game, along with its sibling games, but not what I want for an old school campaign.

Brad named the company that is worst for my wife and I. We tried playing in a Modiphius Barsoom group. They'd been playing for a year and still didn't know all the rules.

Metacurrency that increments based on stuff you do.
So, you're kind of forced to do that regardless of what you want to do.
Because you need the metacurrency to trigger your skills that let you actually survive.

And something like 6 different wound tracks? Really? (And I don't mean like Traveller abilities as hit points.)

I'm like 6 months into playing in a Modiphius Conan game, and yeah, their ineptitude at writing rules is something special. Fortunately its an online game, so I can just do something else while the sorcerer player negotiates with the GM for 20 minutes about how a basic spell works.

  Yeah I have a couple Modiphius games (Conan and Mutant Chronicles and I got the Fallout RPG for nostalgia) and they seem to have a big budget given the IPs and the production value of books...but boy did they really need to spend more on someone to develop a game system.   That feels like a system that someone who has never played or run and RPG cooked up.