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How exactly are you supposed to handle NPCs traveling with the party and helping them fight?

For example, in the LMoP Starter Set, there is the character Sildar. The book explicitly states to give him experience as if he was a player, if he helps the players defeat enemies.

The problem is that all you get for him is a stat block; there is nothing saying what happens with that experience. Is it just supposed to disappear into the void? Or is there something I'm missing? Right now the players grumble because he's eating up experience but isn't going to level up or anything for it.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;817518The problem is that all you get for him is a stat block; there is nothing saying what happens with that experience. Is it just supposed to disappear into the void? Or is there something I'm missing? Right now the players grumble because he's eating up experience but isn't going to level up or anything for it.

Like NPCs in other editions and games. The NPC levels up eventually if they have a class. If they do not have a class then either the EXP goes into the aether or you can use the DMG rules for levelling up monsters.

Either the DM can handle the NPC and decisions, or they can let the players handle the NPC and all that.

I assume you are meant to just give him more levels. but they did fuck up they should have provided stats for later levels

Is he a magic user maybe have him make some items for them although i assume he is only level 1 so probably not.

does 5e have any multi person rituals he can contribute the xp to

Quote from: tuypo1;817522I assume you are meant to just give him more levels. but they did fuck up they should have provided stats for later levels

Is he a magic user maybe have him make some items for them although i assume he is only level 1 so probably not.

does 5e have any multi person rituals he can contribute the xp to

It doesn't say what level he is. He doesn't have a level. How would you even know what he gains in level, without all of the normal class stuff? He doesn't have a class either.

well shit that is lazy adventure writing

does it say how many hit die he has or is it just the hp total and nothing else because if he is given a hit die total use that to work out how much health per hit die and increase that along with all the other benefits of raised hit dice

in fact what you do know is he is humanoid work backwards from the knowledge his hit die are most likely humanoid sized and go from there

of course make sure you work out how many hit die first before you go adding things so you know how much experience he will need to gain hit die

alternatively give him a fighter or at least a warrior level

if you can work out how many die he has but not what type just find a way to give him some templates with equivalent level adjustment each time he would be entitled to a new hit die or possibly save it up a little for a better template

How would you normally figure out how many hit dice something has?

It's basically like a monster stat block.

math they might have changed it for 5e but in 3.5 humoniods have d8 hit die work out how many hit points he has and assuming that the he is getting the average for each die divide that by his hp to get his level equivalent

you may need to adjust for the first level getting max hp from the hit die depending on how they stated him up

so check the 5e monster manual

Well what is he statted as?

I mean he must have something like

AC:16 (chain shirt and shield)
Hit Points:  11 (2d8+2)
Spear

Quote from: Omega;817554Well what is he statted as?

I mean he must have something like

AC:16 (chain shirt and shield)
Hit Points:  11 (2d8+2)
Spear

(http://images.sanctuary-inc.net/sildar.jpg)

yeah he has 5 hit die (basicly levels) so just add another humanoid hit die and everything that comes with that

What else comes with it? I thought adding a hit die was just increasing the character's HP. I have no prior experience with this.

i cant help you there i dont know the specifics of it in 5e but in 3e it is d8 hp, 3/4 base attack bonus, a good saving throw that varies but the saving throw system is completely changed for 5e so i dont think that helps and 2+int modifier skill points so you will need to decide what skills to give him

but thats 3.5 wait until somebody who knows the 5e details gets here

although his only skill is 2 perception which does not make any sense so maybe they threw out the system completely for 5e in which case i am extremely embarrassed

in the event that i have completely fucked everything the correct information should be in your monster manual

or maybe they put that in the dungon masters manual this time around

ok yeah i checked the basic rules and theres no mention of advancement at all

this is one of the major reasons i dont like 5e the player/monster disconnect

so really we are right back to square fucking 1 because wizards threw out npc classes and hit die for creatures without classes

I'm pretty sure he's not supposed to level up. For one thing he has no class or level. He 'eats XP' because his presence makes things easier for the PCs. If they don't like it they can go without him.

alternatively you may be able to beef up the encounters a little so that they get as much xp with the npc as they did before without him but for the same difficulty level as it would be to the normal ones without him

of course that would be hard to pull off and as we have seen 5e does not have any fucking advancement rules so they only way to beef up encounters is by adding more enemy's to each encounter

or just throw more encounters at them they will take longer to finish but will be higher level by the end up it

Option 1:  increase his hit dice, comparing them to level for xp requirements.  At 10 HD update his stats to those of the Bandit Captain out of the Monster Manual.  At 15 HD update his stats to the Gladiator in the MM.  (I have a vague feeling equating hit dice to PC class level is a little weak, and someone who knows 5E better could reverse-engineer a more exact xp progression, but then again that may keep him from over-shadowing the PCs, so that works.)

Option 2:  when the party hits level 5 convert him to a 5th level Fighter, and level him as a PC from there.  I like this less myself, I like that 5E stat blocks are simpler for NPCs than for PCs, but its the solution most older editions would have used.

i prefer that second suggestion but only because that first one gives massive leaps in power i dont really like simple star blocks at all

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;817518How exactly are you supposed to handle NPCs traveling with the party and helping them fight?

For example, in the LMoP Starter Set, there is the character Sildar. The book explicitly states to give him experience as if he was a player, if he helps the players defeat enemies.

The reason behind giving the XP to the NPC is to offset the XP from the players because they were assisted, so it doesn't really matter whether you give it to the NPC or not.

He is NPC level "5" because he has 5 hit dice (5d8+x) and he doesn't have a class because he was created using NPC rules, which is why he has only a +2 Perception based on his CR instead of levels. I'd suggest winging any increase in Sildar's abilities if you use his stat block.

If you want to have Sildar consistent in relation to the players leveling, I'd suggest recreating Sildar using his existing attributes as a Champion Fighter using the PC rules at the same level as the characters if you really want him to gain experience along with the players over an extended period of time.

Quote from: tuypo1;817601i prefer that second suggestion but only because that first one gives massive leaps in power i dont really like simple star blocks at all

The first one isn't such a massive leap in power.  Bandit Captain and Gladiator just happen to have multi-attack and parry at a slightly higher level than Sildar.  (They also have better character stats, but if that bothers you those could be adjusted more often so there's no one large jump.  If you're even changing those stats at all.)

But, as Snooggums says, the longer you plan to run him, the more statting him as a Fighter might make sense.

I've abstracted NPC allies a lot. This is how I do it (loosely based on the NPC creation section of the 5e DMG):

Loyalty (this is kept secret from the party; I use the rules in DMG).

Stats

• Advantage: has an Advantage to rolls using this stat
• Disadvantage: has a Disadvantage to rolls using this stat
• Skills (+X): Gets to use Proficiency bonus (equal to average of party) on checks using these stats

Roleplaying

• Talent: Something (not combat-related) that the NPC is very good at doing (usually always succeeds; no roll needed)
• Mannerism: A physical quirk
• Interaction: A social quirk

Background

• Ideals: what they strive for (affects Loyalty)
• Bond: what matters to them (affects Loyalty)
• Flaw: what could cause problems for the party

Equipment

• Weapon: listed first, their main form of attack
• other stuff, kept brief (main outfit, things of worth etc...)

Instead of tracking Hit Dice and HP, in combat encounters, the NPC lasts a number of rounds equal to the average party level. That means that after X number of rounds, they are taken out either due to exhaustion, wounds, bad morale or whatever. The PCs are the big damn heroes after all. Everyone else is just a sidekick.

Example NPC ally from my current campaign:

Adja, freed slave

Stats

• Advantage: Dexterity
• Disadvantage: Strength
• Skills (+2): Dexterity, Wisdom, Charisma.

Roleplaying

• Talent: Drinks everyone under the table.
• Mannerism: Stares into the distance.
• Interaction: Curious

Background

• Ideals: Greed and Freedom
• Bond: loyal to Arcas, who freed her.
• Flaw: Heavy drinker.

Equipment

• Weapon: Bleeder (+1 knife, DC 15 Constitution save or extra 2d10 bleeding damage)
• Lagashian peasant garb
• Kushite golden slave ankle collar (worth 20 gp)
• 40 sp.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;817559(http://images.sanctuary-inc.net/sildar.jpg)

Interesting variant build, possibly over-costed for his fascinating Special Reaction. Parry is akin to a Battle Master maneuver, but the character has no other maneuver.

Also it has a limited form of Extra Attack, Multiattack, that is limited to melee attacks. Doesn't have Second Wind, Action Surge, or even a Martial Style. Pretty well cleaved at the knees.

Mathematically he is 2/3 of the 27 points given in regular point buy. If you start with straight 8s he tallies up to 18 points.

Also his HD is one grade lower than it should be as a fighter. His saves are STR CON thus fighter saves and thus his HD should be d10.

He also doesn't have a +3 Prof Bonus due to his HD level of 5. Instead it is +2 PB.

Almost everything is a step down, which might be a true-to-spirit way to take this, but that's some bookkeeping.

Here, another solution: make him a 'party reward' PC alternate character. If they level him up he becomes a real PC (like Pinocchio). Or a player-developed NPC, who may end up as a henchman, or a holder of power elsewhere!

He's supposed to be "5th lvl" if HD is any indication. That means he's at 6,500 XP. If and when he levels to sixth will be 7,500 XP away. Unless you vomit XP at your players, that's more than enough time for him to die off or wander away.

If you party keeps him alive though... tempt the players with the moon. Give them an actual PC-strength equivalent ally.

He gets to be a fully fledged point buy 5th lvl Battle Master —
AND the party gets to choose where to allocate those extra 9 points.
AND, if you run Feats in your game, the party then gets to decide if he's human or human variant, and his feat.
AND they get to determine his 4th choice of whether 2x +1 stats or Feat.
AND (Monty, Monty, can there possibly be more?!) they can decide his next level choices, including class if you allow multiclass.
AND they each have a good relationship, or at least a boon, tied to this character sheet.

Then offer that whoever dies during the campaign may take the reigns of 'New & Improved!' Sildar. Or the party can leave him persisting as a mid-value NPC friend (or who owes the party a boon). The players may even groom him to be a future henchman. Let the players take the responsibility for keeping the XP sink alive, and reward them for due diligence.

Quote from: snooggums;817631If you want to have Sildar consistent in relation to the players leveling, I'd suggest recreating Sildar using his existing attributes as a Champion Fighter using the PC rules at the same level as the characters if you really want him to gain experience along with the players over an extended period of time.

This was my thought too. He is a NPC level 5 fighter. Possibly using the MM Veteran as a template and then toning him down in HD to represent a retired soldier.

As for EXP, you can use the EXP table for players. He is probably not going to level up more than once in the Phandelver adventure anyhow so just bump him up 1 HD as hes not likely to gain anything signifigant in that span.

If on the other hand you reeeeealy want to keep using him. Then possibly consider converting him into a level 6 fighter once he levels up to represent coming out of retirement and re-discovering his skills.

Or keep him as is and just occasionally bump up his HD and HP. When he hits 11 HD increase his multiattack to 3.

Quote from: Necrozius;817640... {snip awesome sauce}

That is fantastic! I shall steal it from you! And place in my bag of holding of course...

Personally, some of the NPCs are simple. They provide numbers in combat, and they just "sink" XP. Some NPCs are important. They are built like characters and level up with XP earned.

So, in my current game (in the tunnels below the city) there are 5 PCs, 2 important NPCs, and 4 minions. I decide/calculate XP, then divide by the whole crew (11) and award from there.

If you get the luxury of hiding behind a wall of trained fighters, you don't get the credit for the whole win. :-)

Quote from: trechriron;817668That is fantastic! I shall steal it from you! And place in my bag of holding of course...

Personally, some of the NPCs are simple. They provide numbers in combat, and they just "sink" XP. Some NPCs are important. They are built like characters and level up with XP earned.

So, in my current game (in the tunnels below the city) there are 5 PCs, 2 important NPCs, and 4 minions. I decide/calculate XP, then divide by the whole crew (11) and award from there.

If you get the luxury of hiding behind a wall of trained fighters, you don't get the credit for the whole win. :-)

I place NPCs who travel with and assist the party in two categories:

1) Hired help: These can be regular mercs, henchmen, or whatever. The defining characteristic of this type is that the players sought them out and enlisted their aid.

2) Temporary companions of circumstance: These are characters that end up being with the PCs for a variety of reasons. Fellow travelers in a caravan, rescued captives, allied agents, or whatever. The defining characteristic of this type is that they just happen to be with the PCs due to the adventure setup.


NPCs in category 1 always take a share of XP for any activities in which they provide service. The players chose to have extra help after all. That help may be wise and be an extra boost toward survival odds but it will slow down XP progression a bit.

NPCs in category 2 never detract from the XP awarded to the PCs.  These NPCs are not employees of the PCs and thus are not subject to taking orders. I want to encourage NPC interaction and if players are always trying to ditch NPCs because they are XP leeches it becomes more difficult. These NPCs have their own objectives & motivations which might not always align with those of the PCS making them occasionally difficult.

Putting up with a difficult NPC that is useful in a tight spot is a more interesting & difficult choice if they help but don't leech XP. The players don't get to decide how long these NPCs are with them and never know what schemes they may be cooking up. Sometimes an NPC will get the PCs into extra trouble and sometimes help them get out of it.

As a DM I really don't care if the PCs get a little bit of help in combat encounters once in a while. The increased opportunities for ongoing interaction are more than worth it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;817679I place NPCs who travel with and assist the party in two categories:

...

That is a good point. The fighters and Paladin were assigned to the group and they may start ditching people if they "get in the way". I may have to steal this from you as well! My bag of holding is getting filled up today...