There must be a reason why Bill Coffin did work with him that long w/o problems.

Quote from: McrowNow why is it everyone gets all over PB about this and not Green Ronin who did the exact same thing. In fact Green Ronins problems were self inflicted by having all their eggs in one basket. The fact is that there was a lot of theft @ Palldium and someone was found guilty for it.

I don't really have dog in this hunt, but I found an interesting post about this over at Circus Maximus:

Quote from: Ghostwind at Circus MaximusI appreciate that Palladium has such wide support, but honestly the whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth. When Palladium first made their announcement, distributors immediately offered retailers discount incentives to keep buying Palladium books and help out the company in their time of dire need. Yet when the Osseum fiasco happened earlier that year and companies like Green Ronin were on the verge of total shutdown (who lost almost $100,000), not a damn thing happened from the industry other than a collective "Oh well, that sucks."

Where was the support then? Oh wait, that's right. It was mostly d20 companies affected by the Osseum shutdown and we all know they're a dime a dozen and have no possible usefulness to the long term health of the gaming industry.

Thankfully, Green Ronin and a few others managed to crawl out of the hole by digging in with their own fingernails and fighting to make it. Personally, I haven't seen as much determination out of Palladium. That's one of the reasons why I am more willing to give my money to Green Ronin than Palladium.

Hm.

I had some general "I'd do X if I ran Palladium." comments at home on RPGnet.  But, since I'm over here in the Pundit's house, I'll get nasty...

Fuck Palladium.

They're sucking money out of gamers, and wasting it utterly.  They have the books on PDF; it's part of the archiving Maryann does for them.  They have access to the same internet that I do.  They could easily shift their book printing and ordering over to a service like lulu, lay off half the staff (probably more), and turn instantly into the meanest profit-making engine that the cottage side of this industry (that is, not WotC) has ever seen.  They could do this in under a week.

Instead, they beg and whine and suck money from gamers.

Fuck 'em.

Don't hold back, Levi... tell us how you really feel.


Strikes you as one of those circumstances where you see someone in the perfect position to just be awesome and pissing it away, while you sit there and scratch your head over why... doesn't it?

The Irony of course is that one of the oft repeated refrains about RPGs (at least that I heard growing up...) was that it was like watching a movie and seeing the hero do something obviously dumb... only since you were the hero you could NOT do something dumb.    Now we are watching one of our gamer heroes doing dumb fucking thing after dumb fucking thing and....


HEY!!! that's what this hobby needs, an RPG about being an RPG designer!!! It'll cure ALL our collective angst about Palladium!

Quote from: RPGPunditMeanwhile, there's probably a shitload of people who donated to RPG.net who have NO IDEA that RPG.net is a business that makes MONEY off of them, that is created FOR PROFIT,

Don't look at me, I never donated money to rpg.net, either. Nor did I encourage anyone else to. I didn't diss them online about it, but unlike RPGPundit, there's a limit to how many people and groups I can be bothered mocking.

Quote from: mcrowI'm sure though that he is tough to write for because his standards are pretty high

Looking at my old copy of Rifts, I don't think his standards are too high. Looking at his latest Panhandlium press release, full of grammatical errors and poor choice of words ("pragmatists" say he should give up? So practical people who look at the facts say he should give up? So he doesn't listen to practical people who consider the facts?), I don't think his standards are too high.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThey have the books on PDF; it's part of the archiving Maryann does for them.

What's interesting to me is that they consider paypal to be impractical or somehow bad for payments for their online store; but for donations, they're willing to use it.

I own some Palladium products that I really enjoy - Recon, Palladium Fantasy RPG, several others - and really don't know Jack Shit about Kevin, but this "Crisis of Treachery" thing struck me as pretty lame.

If you want to make more money, have a sale or something. Come out with some new products. Anything but whine and beg on the side of the information superhighway. Have some dignity for Christ's sake. Green Ronin can take a lesson, too. It's the same thing: I'm a fan of their products, but nobody's coming along to bail me out of I suddenly lose my job or something.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenHm.

I had some general "I'd do X if I ran Palladium." comments at home on RPGnet.  But, since I'm over here in the Pundit's house, I'll get nasty...

Fuck Palladium.

They're sucking money out of gamers, and wasting it utterly.  They have the books on PDF; it's part of the archiving Maryann does for them.  They have access to the same internet that I do.  They could easily shift their book printing and ordering over to a service like lulu, lay off half the staff (probably more), and turn instantly into the meanest profit-making engine that the cottage side of this industry (that is, not WotC) has ever seen.  They could do this in under a week.

Instead, they beg and whine and suck money from gamers.

Fuck 'em.

Just when I despair that the old ways have been forgotten, along comes something like this to give confirmation that the spirit of Nutkinland still infuses this places. Brings a tear to my eye, it does.

:heh:

Quote from: mattormegGreen Ronin can take a lesson, too. It's the same thing: I'm a fan of their products, but nobody's coming along to bail me out of I suddenly lose my job or something.

Here is what Green Ronin did, for those who didn't read it. It was posted on their site in the July 12th, 2006 news:

Quote from: Chris Pramas on Green Ronin's news page, July 12th, 2006Freelancer Fundraiser


As you may or may not know, last year Green Ronin had a large sum of money stolen by its former sales and fulfillment house, Osseum Entertainment. The short version of the story is that our trusted business partners of over three years embezzled months' worth of revenue from sales they made on our titles. After launching big, expensive-to-produce products like the Advanced Bestiary, The Black Company Campaign Setting, and the Egyptian Adventures: Hamunaptra boxed set, Green Ronin received no money from the sales of these and other products. Obviously, this came as a financial blow to the company.

The last 18 months have been a trying time but we have survived. The company has stabilized and we've been able to resume a relatively normal publishing schedule. This is all to the good. By a slow and steady process, we have been able to pay off many creditors and reduce the amounts owed to others. We have made substantial progress but we would like to do more.

In particular, we want to do everything we can to speed up payment of debts owed to our freelancers. When Osseum stole the revenue from our book sales they not only harmed Green Ronin, they stole money from our freelancers. These are the hard working and talented folks who write, illustrate, and edit many of the Green Ronin products you enjoy. As a whole they have been incredibly patient and understanding and it's hard to express how much we appreciate that.

While we can (and will) continue to pay down the financial debts we owe our freelancers, their enduring goodwill is a debt of another kind. We'd like to do something more to repay that debt and to show our appreciation for the way they've stood by us in the face of last year's crisis.

Therefore, we're running a Freelancer Fundraiser from now until GenCon and we're offering you several ways that you can help us pay back the hard-working people who have contributed so much to our success and your enjoyment. If you'd like to contribute to our Freelancer Fundraiser, please consider one or more of the following options:

1) Bleeding Edge Adventure Pre-Order: For $20 plus shipping you can pre-order a limited edition Bleeding Edge adventure we'll publish in 2007. This will be the only way to purchase this exclusive adventure. We'll be polling our message boards to find out what sort of adventure people want the most and what character levels would be the most popular. Format: 32-page book, black and white interior, saddle stitched.

2) Mutants & Masterminds Sourcebook Pre-Order: For $40 plus shipping you can pre-order a limited edition Mutants & Masterminds sourcebook we'll publish in 2007. This will be the only way to purchase this exclusive sourcebook. We'll be polling on the Atomic Think Tank forums to find out what kind of sourcebook people want the most. Format: 96-page book, black and white interior, perfect bound.

3) Online Sale: We'll be featuring a variety of sale products, both print and PDF, in our online store over the next month. The sale starts with the following products: Book of the Righteous ($20), Medieval Player's Manual ($10), Unholy Warrior's Handbook ($10), Time of Crisis $8, Hell in Freeport ($8), Death in Freeport Revised PDF ($4), Terror in Freeport Revised PDF ($4), and Madness in Freeport Revised PDF ($4), and Skull & Bones PDF ($10). More titles will be featured in the weeks to come.

4) Donate: When you visit our Green Ronin Online Store, you'll notice a "donation" button. If you wish to donate a few extra dollars to our Freelancer Fundraiser on top of paying for your purchases, you can choose from several amounts here.

5) Buy GR at Your FLGS: Buy a GR product or two at your Friendly Local Game Store or pre-order one of our upcoming titles from them. (Coming out within the next week are True Sorcery, True20 Bestiary, and Mansion of Shadows.) This is a more "trickle down" way to help, but it is important, as game retailers are key partners to our business.

6) Buy GR at GenCon: Green Ronin will be in full force at GenCon in Indianapolis, IN, August 10th through 13th. Come by our booth and pick up one of our many fine products to show your support.

Thank you all for your continued support. We wouldn't be here without you.

Sincerely,
Chris Pramas
President
Green Ronin Publishing

Quote from: Levi KornelsenHm.
Fuck Palladium.

Hard. With a burning poke. It was about time.

Quote from: ImperatorIt was about time.

I held out, trying to find a way to see them as just a "company in trouble" that had been a bit eccentric about it.

I really tried.

But I'm done now.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonJust when I despair that the old ways have been forgotten, along comes something like this to give confirmation that the spirit of Nutkinland still infuses this places. Brings a tear to my eye, it does.
:heh:

It's like he found the Angry Chair in some back storageroom, dusted it off, and rolled it on out. :eek:

The difference I see, and the reason I support Green Ronin over Palladium, is that GR never came at me with appeals to save their company by giving them money. Their "freelancer fundraiser", as far as I can tell, is designed to allow them to pay their freelancers sooner. They are saying their company is ok, and that they have been and will continue to pay their bills, but that if we choose to help their freelancers can be paid sooner, which is a good thing. In return, if I choose to help out I can get product that will be unavailable to the general public. So I get cool stuff, with no pressure or threats of the company going under, and if I want I can help out some of the guys I talk to online and who have offered me many free tidbits and gobs of advice. Seems to me the entire approach is vastly different. GR doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth with their approach.

Quote from: SigmundThe difference I see, and the reason I support Green Ronin over Palladium, is that GR never came at me with appeals to save their company by giving them money. Their "freelancer fundraiser", as far as I can tell, is designed to allow them to pay their freelancers sooner. They are saying their company is ok, and that they have been and will continue to pay their bills, but that if we choose to help their freelancers can be paid sooner, which is a good thing. In return, if I choose to help out I can get product that will be unavailable to the general public. So I get cool stuff, with no pressure or threats of the company going under, and if I want I can help out some of the guys I talk to online and who have offered me many free tidbits and gobs of advice. Seems to me the entire approach is vastly different. GR doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth with their approach.

Another thing is that GR encouraged the purchase of product before what are basically donations.

Kevin Siembieda definitely stressed making donations over buying product.

Quote from: GabrielKevin Siembieda definitely stressed making donations over buying product.

I think this why the whole Palladium debacle is so sad.  The cynic in me thinks he's just trying to make enough money to retire...I'm sure folks would donate just for that anyway.

But, the compassionate part of me thinks he's just a scared man confronted with the loss of his dream, and is too stubborn to admit that he, Kevin Siembeda, personally flushed his great game company into the tubes with his own stubborness.  Palladium is dead and gone, and this crap he's pulling will only pull them up so far.  PB will be gone in a couple of years.

Oh, another thing.  Some people will think this isn't important.  Other people will, like me, find it a telling little factoid.

It appears Chris Pramas himself posted the plea for help for his company.  As the top dog, he presented the announcement himself.

When KS initially announced the impending demise of Palladiumbooks and requested all "true fans" to buy a print, he didn't post the announcement himself.  He had one of his underlings post it for him.

Since I'm a cynic, and I've seen exactly this kind of thing before, I view it as hedging his bets.  If there had been a negative reaction among the flock to the call for donations, KS would have simply shunted the blame to the person who posted the announcement like he does whenever he has screwed up and needs a scapegoat.  But, there was a positive reaction among the followers, so he then stepped out and basked in the success.