Quote from: GabrielAnother thing is that GR encouraged the purchase of product before what are basically donations.

Kevin Siembieda definitely stressed making donations over buying product.

Oh give me a break.

he asked peopel to buy a print of his art. He set the price and the people who thought it was worth it bought it. Whether you think it was a good buy or not really  makes no difference.

All this thread (and ones on other sites) show is that there are people out there that would have bitched and cried fraud no matter what Palladium did.

Quote from: McrowAll this thread (and ones on other sites) show is that there are people out there that would have bitched and cried fraud no matter what Palladium did.

There are plenty of reaonable people here capable of finding both good and bad in Palladium Books.  Only the zealots on both sides cast the situation in black and white.

:melodramatic: :hissyfit: We're all such haters, man. Why can't we see that begging for donations like a hustler evangelist is an honorable, sensible way to save a company the great and brilliant KS has spent most of a lifetime lovingly and carefully running into the ground?



:boohoo:

Quote from: jrientsThere are plenty of reaonable people here capable of finding both good and bad in Palladium Books.  Only the zealots on both sides cast the situation in black and white.

Sure, I fully agree on some stuff people say about palladium, but this whole conspiracy theory is such a load of crap.

Quote from: McrowSure, I fully agree on some stuff people say about palladium, but this whole conspiracy theory is such a load of crap.

Which conspiracy is that?  That Mr. Siembieda puts intermediaries between himself and the fans in order to maintain plausible deniability?

Quote from: jrientsWhich conspiracy is that?  That Mr. Siembieda puts intermediaries between himself and the fans in order to maintain plausible deniability?

no, that they somehow are ripping off people.

If he says "if you want to helpf palladium buy this print" or if they start taking donations because the fans were starting to collect them on their own, I don't see how they are ripping anyone off.

They are saying clearly what you are going to get for your money. If people don't have the decision making skills to make the correct choice (for them)based on that , then they likely are not functioning @ an adult level.

Quote from: Mcrowno, that they somehow are ripping off people.

The failure to disclose the $47,000 settlement could be seen as evidence that Palladium is not being as open with the fans as they could be.  That's not outright proof of deception, I'll grant.  But I find it disturbing that apparently an RPGnetter broke the information first simply by looking up the public record.

Quote from: McrowThey are saying clearly what you are going to get for your money.

Not necessarily.  I don't care about the print in this debate, it was a good move...laughable to some, but a good move nonetheless.  Having a print sale (even at inflated prices) was a legitimate way to make quick cash.

I'm bugged by the fact that anyone who questions what they are doing with the money they recieve as donations is told, "It's our money, and it's none of your business."  If I donate to a for-profit company, I'm entitled to ask where my money is going.  If it's going for more books, they better be working on more books.

Quote from: jrientsThe failure to disclose the $47,000 settlement could be seen as evidence that Palladium is not being as open with the fans as they could be.  That's not outright proof of deception, I'll grant.  But I find it disturbing that apparently an RPGnetter broke the information first simply by looking up the public record.

I don't see that as being deceptive. Everyone knows that settlements are for far, far less many times than actual damages. Also, IIRC it wasn't so much a settlement , I think it was court order restitution. The way it sounded, Kevin could have gotten more but the lawyers fees and the fact that they needed cash now made them just accept what they could get. not to mention I doubt they guy would have the money to pay all of it back. 47k is what he had and being they needed the money, they took it.

Honestly, it's not like this world news and PB should get on line and make press release every time something new comes up. I'm sure it was a very stressful thing so if he took a few days or a week to post the outcome, I don't see that as a problem.

Quote from: joewolzNot necessarily.  I don't care about the print in this debate, it was a good move...laughable to some, but a good move nonetheless.  Having a print sale (even at inflated prices) was a legitimate way to make quick cash.

I'm bugged by the fact that anyone who questions what they are doing with the money they recieve as donations is told, "It's our money, and it's none of your business."  If I donate to a for-profit company, I'm entitled to ask where my money is going.  If it's going for more books, they better be working on more books.

What do you want them to say:

"You paid for the print, you got the print we used your $40 to pay for the line art on page 12 of book x."

To me it was pretty clear that they were using the money to print new books and pay bills. In fact there is a pretty good list over on their site of what books they have in the works, assuming they have the money to print them.

Quote from: McrowEveryone knows that settlements are for far, far less many times than actual damages.

Perhaps you've never met actual gamers?  Many of them are a bit dim.

QuoteAlso, IIRC it wasn't so much a settlement , I think it was court order restitution. The way it sounded, Kevin could have gotten more but the lawyers fees and the fact that they needed cash now made them just accept what they could get. not to mention I doubt they guy would have the money to pay all of it back. 47k is what he had and being they needed the money, they took it.

Clearly taking the money was the smart move, if the situation was as dire as described.

QuoteHonestly, it's not like this world news and PB should get on line and make press release every time something new comes up. I'm sure it was a very stressful thing so if he took a few days or a week to post the outcome, I don't see that as a problem.

I do.  It's either mismanagement or deliberate spin control by omission.  Palladium should have been the first to report the settlement/restitution/whatever, that way they could provide the context.  Not reporting it gives the impression that they did not want anyone to know about that $47,000.  Given past behavior by Palladium, I readily accept the answer that they handled the PR of the matter poorly.  It's what they do.

Quote from: jrientsI do.  It's either mismanagement or deliberate spin control by omission.  Palladium should have been the first to report the settlement/restitution/whatever, that way they could provide the context.  Not reporting it gives the impression that they did not want anyone to know about that $47,000.  Given past behavior by Palladium, I readily accept the answer that they handled the PR of the matter poorly.  It's what they do.

I agree, that if they wanted to prove anything to us internet gaming folks maybe a press release shortly after the trial would have been good.

Bottom line is there is really no proof that shows any type of fraud is going on. I think people are being a bit paranoid.

Quote from: McrowWhat do you want them to say:

"You paid for the print, you got the print we used your $40 to pay for the line art on page 12 of book x."

Not at all.  

Quote from: McrowTo me it was pretty clear that they were using the money to print new books and pay bills. In fact there is a pretty good list over on their site of what books they have in the works, assuming they have the money to print them.

Well it isn't clear to me.  The publicly stated they got a good amount (I lost the link to the dollar amount) from those prints. If they were really in such a deep hole that they couldn't pay their creditors why didnt they just file chap 11 and let it be done in a businesslike manner?

Quote from: joewolzWell it isn't clear to me.  The publicly stated they got a good amount (I lost the link to the dollar amount) from those prints. If they were really in such a deep hole that they couldn't pay their creditors why didnt they just file chap 11 and let it be done in a businesslike manner?

I'm not sure what happens when you file chapter 11, but I'm sure if that made sense they would have done that. Despite what is generally thought Kevin is not a moron.

I don't recall how much they made off of the prints, but I think they were looking to sell 1000 at the least and I think they made that amount. So I'm guessing @ least $40k

Quote from: McrowI'm not sure what happens when you file chapter 11, but I'm sure if that made sense they would have done that. Despite what is generally thought Kevin is not a moron.

I'm not a lawyer.  But filing chapter 11 is a bankruptcy claim that stp creditors from collecting for a specific amount of time.  It's called "Bankruptcy protection" for a reason.  Filing chapter 11 allows a company to reorganize (possibly with outside help, that's up to the court) before it pays its debts.  You can come out of it.  Since I'm certain PB is a sole-proprietorship, and not an LLC or corporation, filing Chapter 11 would make Siembeda also file bankruptcy, meaning that all the nasties associated with that come along.

I don't think he's a moron, I think he's a terrbile businessman.