Quote from: James McMurrayYou do not threaten squares you cannot make an attack into, and you cannot make any attacks (including attacks of opportunity) when on total defense. this means you cannot help someone flank while you are on total defense.

Not to mention that total defense means your AC is now almost as good as a rogue, but your body is more squishy.

I'd recommend taking the -4 for firing into melee penalty and hoping to roll high.

Which still sublets your character from "mage" to "that scrawny guy who hides in the back and throws rocks at things".

hell, the ToEE game actually gives mages slings in their starting gear.

Quote from: obrynYeeeesh.  I hope it's fun.  This kind of thing tends to turn me off games right quick.  As a matter of fact, now that I think of it, it did turn me off one game I played in...

I think in the right circumstances (e.g. you're playing in Dark Sun or some mythical setting), stats like that can rock.  Otherwise, it just throws so much stuff out of the curve for D&D for my DMing or playing comfort.

-O

Don't get me wrong, I didn't ask for hugely generous stats. I play be being more interested in what my character tries to do, rather than how good he rolls.  Look up the AP from the character's PoV thread I posted to see what I mean. All about 'is this the right action for my faith' and trying to do the diplomatic solutions over straight dice rolling.




For low levels the skew works in the game's favor I think, making squishy characters a little less... you know... squishy.

Quote from: SpikeFor low levels the skew works in the game's favor I think, making squishy characters a little less... you know... squishy.

It also circuments the class abilities even more. With massive attribute bonuses, a few puny BAB points won't matter that much.

Quote from: James McMurrayYou do not threaten squares you cannot make an attack into, and you cannot make any attacks (including attacks of opportunity) when on total defense. this means you cannot help someone flank while you are on total defense.

Not to mention that total defense means your AC is now almost as good as a rogue, but your body is more squishy.

I'd recommend taking the -4 for firing into melee penalty and hoping to roll high.

Okay, so don't get into melee.  You still have those other options.  The bluff/intimidate route is one.  Another is the good old crossbow.  Wizards usually have fair Dex bonuses, making them about as effective at ranged as anyone (who didn't specialize).  And come 2nd level you can scribe some spells of true strike for 1 xp a pop...

Quote from: SosthenesIt also circuments the class abilities even more. With massive attribute bonuses, a few puny BAB points won't matter that much.

You know, that's an excellent point.  I think you've just summed up both why I've switched to point-buy and why I don't love uber-stats...

-O

Quote from: RedFoxAlso, a Wizard is usually bloated with skill points.  And they'll be getting surplus skill points as they increase their Intelligence scores.  So it doesn't hurt to max out Bluff or Intimidate at first level for combat use, especially since you probably also speak enough languages to get your point across...

i don't think 2+int bonus per level qualifies as bloat. . .  :confused:

I have adjusted tables which make 10 (not 10.5) the human average (bonuses start at 12 in my house rules). Then I do it like this:

1. 3d6 in order.

2. Total them up. If over 60, skip to step 4.

3. Choose any stat to reroll. Take the new number if higher, keep the old if lower. Keep doing this with a new stat until your stats total more than 60. If you go through all six and are still below 60 you may start over with step 3 fresh.

4. Take one last 'reroll, take higher' of your choice. This can be any attribute, even one you just re-rolled in step 3.

This guarantees above-average characters and lets people get rid of low stats they don't want without much bloat, and keeps 16+ stats super-rare.

Examples:

Strength 11, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 14, Dexterity 10, Constitution 9, Charisma 11. These are good scores. You go to the one free re-roll. This player decides to be a Wizard and wants a higher Dexterity, rolls a 13, bumps Dex to 13 and is done.

Strength 4, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Dexterity 15, Constitution 13, Charisma 5. These only total 59, so you'd get one free re-roll. In this case most people would take a second shot at Strength and then use the free one on Charisma. I got 12 and 7, making a good character overall with one weak score.

Strength 13, Intelligence 5, Wisdom 8, Dexterity 5, Constitution 11, Charisma 7. This is where you can get real fun, but with some risks. Often I'd go for Strength first with the idea of trying to get my high scores high, using the low ones as buffer, and then come to fix the low scores at the end. So here goes. Strength I get another 13, so it stays. Reroll Dexterity and get a 12. Now I'm at 56 so I can still get another 4 points safely. I go Constitution: 13. Now I've got to fix two of my three low scores. Let's try Charisma: 9! This is sweet because I'm at 60 even, so I get another free re-roll. I try Intelligence, but in only goes to 7 - ouch. I decide to try for a somewhat thick heroic leader type and go Charisma again: 13! Solidly above average, this guy will make for a good fighter at 13/7/8/12/13/13.

What I like about this is that it makes all characters above average by definitition while still making high attribute scores genuinely rare.

Quote from: beeberi don't think 2+int bonus per level qualifies as bloat. . .  :confused:

It is when they have like 3 necessary skills (Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge: Arcana).  You can use those 2-3 extra points to great effect for whatever miscellany or knowledge skills you want.

-O

Quote from: obrynIt is when they have like 3 necessary skills (Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge: Arcana).  You can use those 2-3 extra points to great effect for whatever miscellany or knowledge skills you want.

-O

Exactly.  Wizards only require three skills to function, and they're likely to have at least two more skill picks from a high Int score, if not three (for being human) or more (for having a really nice stat roll).

My group rolls 4d6 and drops the lowest of the four. You are allowed to reroll until your mods total +5 or higher. The group as a whole tends to favour extremes rather than average characters, so we take our attribute penalties in stride.

I use de 4d6 drop min. on my games, and I ask the players if they want to reroll the ones, but I warn them that if they do so will the enemies.
Either way is kinda hard to end up with penalties when rolling 4d6.

Quote from: NicephorusI like that sort of thing as a player - I like adapting to makes sense of the numbers.  It also encourages players to try character types they normally wouldn't.  But many people do hate it.  I think they hate the lack of control - not able to create the exact character they have in mind.

Yeah, and the lack of control was precisely what I was trying to create. I wanted the creation of the character to have some role playing in it. People don't get to maximize their abilities as they see fit either. They develop some abilities more than others, but most of us work within limits. I would love to have been the center line backer on a pro football team, but the shortest weakest kid in class isn't a good candidate for that job. You learn these things after awhile. Just like I learned in High School that I had no musical ability whatsoever, so being in a rock band was out ...unless I wanted to be shamelessly horrible, which I didn't. I like the idea that of trying to design a character around a few limitations, of trying to figure out what would be best for those stats instead of what stats would be best for this. It's just a little different, which is what I was going for.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineMy group rolls 4d6 and drops the lowest of the four. You are allowed to reroll until your mods total +5 or higher. The group as a whole tends to favour extremes rather than average characters, so we take our attribute penalties in stride.

That's a nice technique.

Thanks. We use it so often that one of the newer guys thought it was in the PHB.

My group didn't like random stat gen, because we typically had an idea in mind already. Before we were aware of more official point buy techniques, I went ahead and created a system based on what we wanted the average stat to be which was, I think, a '13' in 3.0. (10 is the standard average, but we being heros, we reasoned, ought to have it bumped up.)

I think I assumed a '3' in every stat and gave a total of 60 points to be used, without modifiers, to fill in the rest. It gives a 13 average, which I'll admit, is quite high when you end up with characters with '8's in their stats. It grants a lot of 18's in specialized characters.

Really, it favors players who want to be Paladins and Monks. Spellcasters usually don't have much trouble getting their one high stat, and melee generally have some excess stats after their primary melee functions to let them be a little more rounded out.

I've since favored a less-powerful character generation (I modifiy the point pool for lower average stats.), but the game group still likes their play suitably epic that they remain enthusiastic about the first generation spread.

(As a side note, they're not really munchkins or anything. They just like not having to worry so much about their builds or whatever. High stats gives a lot more lee-way in the beginning. I, personally, used that generation system to create characters that were pretty good at a lot of things, as opposed to being really specialized. Ended up with the title of MVP more then once, because I was always bringing something to every event and succeeded pretty well.)