Does anyone have a list of the differences between the original PF rpg and the revised version? I have the first printing and the second edition (which is essentially just fantasy Rifts...not a fan), but am unsure what changed between the first and revised editions. Or if anything changed at all beyond some editing.
Pretty sure I have revised and a friend has original so may be able to check if everything is not in storage.
update 1: I have Revised, one of the later versions. And friend has 2nd. And I agree 2nd feels like it lost something along the way.
update 2: The differences between 1 and R are pretty small according to player who had all 3. (and they did not like 2e either...)
I'll try to get more details as most of my Palladium books are in storage so can not check directly.
update 3: According to notes some 8 years old now. One change was the removal of the "sexual deviancy" madness table.
The difference between 1st and 1st revised is simple. Revised removed the sexual deviance table from the insanity section.
*edited for clarity
Essentially, the 2nd edition was completely revised to be compatible with RIFTS. The big changes are in HTH skills, # of attacks, the addition of SDC for characters, more complex spellcasters and revamp the magic system from spells per day to a spell point system. Second also removes the monster section, and the revised Monsters and Animals book for 2nd Edition did not pick up many if any of these classic monsters, and some things were moved to Dragon's & Gods.
IME the changes may not seem to be huge on the surface, but Second edition is a more complex , less balanced, slower/fiddly running game.
I do prefer the spell point system in Second and the art is much better. The second edition revised supplements such as The Old Ones, and Adventures on the High Seas are much better than their 1st edition counterparts.
Quote from: JeffB on March 09, 2021, 04:24:09 PM
Essentially, the 2nd edition was completely revised to be compatible with RIFTS. The big changes are in HTH skills, # of attacks, the addition of SDC for characters, more complex spellcasters and revamp the magic system from spells per day to a spell point system. Second also removes the monster section, and the revised Monsters and Animals book for 2nd Edition did not pick up many if any of these classic monsters, and some things were moved to Dragon's & Gods.
IME the changes may not seem to be huge on the surface, but Second edition is a more complex , less balanced, slower/fiddly running game.
I do prefer the spell point system in Second and the art is much better. The second edition revised supplements such as The Old Ones, and Adventures on the High Seas are much better than their 1st edition counterparts.
You also forgot that in 2nd anyone can have the HtH Martial Arts, WP paired weapons, and any Weapon Proficiency they wish making spell/psionic OCCs the superior to any OOC without magic/psionics.
Also the bonuses to hit and such are generally higher making armor more or less useless since pretty much any attack not parried is going to beat the AR of the armor.
Most demons did not have their actions per round increased from 1st ed meaning that they are even weaker now since they'll often have fewer actions then even a 1st level PC.
Quote from: lordmalachdrim on March 09, 2021, 04:35:17 PM
Quote from: JeffB on March 09, 2021, 04:24:09 PM
Essentially, the 2nd edition was completely revised to be compatible with RIFTS. The big changes are in HTH skills, # of attacks, the addition of SDC for characters, more complex spellcasters and revamp the magic system from spells per day to a spell point system. Second also removes the monster section, and the revised Monsters and Animals book for 2nd Edition did not pick up many if any of these classic monsters, and some things were moved to Dragon's & Gods.
IME the changes may not seem to be huge on the surface, but Second edition is a more complex , less balanced, slower/fiddly running game.
I do prefer the spell point system in Second and the art is much better. The second edition revised supplements such as The Old Ones, and Adventures on the High Seas are much better than their 1st edition counterparts.
You also forgot that in 2nd anyone can have the HtH Martial Arts, WP paired weapons, and any Weapon Proficiency they wish making spell/psionic OCCs the superior to any OOC without magic/psionics.
Also the bonuses to hit and such are generally higher making armor more or less useless since pretty much any attack not parried is going to beat the AR of the armor.
Most demons did not have their actions per round increased from 1st ed meaning that they are even weaker now since they'll often have fewer actions then even a 1st level PC.
Oh yeah, there is a ton of stuff that changed. I didn't mean to imply my list was exhaustive, thus my second (one sentence) paragraph. Gameplay changed dramatically.
Myself, I'd much rather play Kevin's original, vs the second edition.
Okay, so just the one table was removed...I have the original TMNT and the revised version, they're identical except for that table as well. In fact, there's a sticker over it in my book. Guess some people didn't care for it.
RE: second edition, again, I don't care for it. Spell points, the addition of SDC, just a ton of stuff that turned it from a really good D&D clone into Rifts fantasy, as already stated.
Yep just the one table. Remember Palladium Fantasy 1st ed was released in either 81 or 82 and parents had issues with that table in a game their kids were playing (D&D was not the only game dealing with the Religious nut jobs of the day).
I'm an idiot. I read the thread as 1E vs 2E. Not the original vs revised.
Apologies.
I believe at one point/printing they may have removed the Tombs of Gersidi adventure too, but not 100% on that.
What 2e has of use is the setting details which I believe were by Bill Coffin and are actually pretty good. 1e/R has a bit less setting info.
Quote from: JeffB on March 10, 2021, 08:14:15 AM
I'm an idiot. I read the thread as 1E vs 2E. Not the original vs revised.
Apologies.
I believe at one point/printing they may have removed the Tombs of Gersidi adventure too, but not 100% on that.
Tombs of Gersidi was removed with the release of 2e.
That is part of what meant. Aside from the setting info, 2e feels like less despite having more. I know 2e Beyond the Supernatural IS less that the original despite having a few new classes.
I am a fan of Palladium Fantasy 1e. I have both a copy of first edition and the revised.
I'd love to run a small campaign but we have a few games going already. Mostly just played it bitd.
I'm missing just a few of the supplements and the ones I have are fun reads. Book II: The Old Ones rocks as does Book V: "Further" Adventures in the Northern Wilderness.
I'm not a fan of PDFs but if your ok with them you should be able to pick them up on Drivethru
The Old Ones book was the first RPG supplement I ever read that made me really feel like the game world was super oppressive and grimy. Very well done.
PF1e is terrific. Kevin blended RuneQuest and D&D into something that plays truly amazing at the game table.
Quote from: Spinachcat on March 12, 2021, 05:05:06 AM
PF1e is terrific. Kevin blended RuneQuest and D&D into something that plays truly amazing at the game table.
I'll admit, my choice to go with only 15 levels and have linear character progression in my own system stems largely from how well it worked in Palladium.
A bit less related to Palladium Fantasy in general, but with the most of Palladium's game lines as a whole was how PCs started out reasonably competent and started to feel so solid by about level 4 (you had your core strike, parry and dodge bonuses from your hand to hand, enough PPE to get through a day, primary skill percentages were in the 75+% range, etc.). The result was that I recall a number of campaigns where advancement just sorta froze at about that point with no xp awards for a year at a time and not one person even noticing or missing it.
The fact Priests of Light can heal pretty much an unlimited amount at level 2, wizards can can any spell they know, the fighters are all super competent at combat (even thieves and assassins)...yeah, you can definitely play a very low-level game and not feel like you're missing out. And yet you can also get TPK'd in about three seconds, which maintains the grittiness of the setting. It's a good combination of high power and high risk.
Quote from: Spinachcat on March 12, 2021, 05:05:06 AM
PF1e is terrific. Kevin blended RuneQuest and D&D into something that plays truly amazing at the game table.
Yeah, that's the thing. Sadly, it's all downhill from there.
I would not so much say it went down hill as all of a sudden there is a fork in the road with a detour sign pointing to 2e which is full of potholes but damn the scenery is lovely. But the 1e/r road looks well kept even if the scenery is a little less interesting.
The funniest part about 2e is how much of the odd PP doesn't count and you take a massive penalty dodge rules got walked back in later books to the point a lot of the games are practically unplayable together.
There's a solid system under all those decades of kludges, it just really needs a complete tear down and rebuild of its core mechanics instead of continuing to juryrig the thing where every new patch is more about cleaning up the problems of the last patch rather than the fundamental problem.*
* What do I think the fundamental problem in the Palladium engine is? The root of all its woes? Physical Skill bonuses. Those are where the bulk of the bonuses that rendered armor useless and broke the ranged weapons vs. dodge balance started. Everything else in the rules tweaks has been an attempt at papering over the issues that caused and the lack of those skills in Palladium Fantasy 1e is one of the main reasons the system is so much more solid than later entries.
Yeah, the physical skills make character creation slow and lead to the game breaking bonuses that having bonuses start at 16 was meant to prevent. They've been toned down significantly from Heroes Unlimited first edition, where many +1s were +1d4, over the years but you still have to look them up.
I'd probably make the bonuses start earlier and allow +1 to one stat per level with a restriction by occ.
I'm not fond of PPE either especially when the spells all have different costs. It should be "level" PPE straight up.
I don't mind PPE; it's ultimately just ISP for spells. The differing amounts were easy enough to track and did, at least, provide a small means of balance within an otherwise quite broad range of effects within a level of spells.
To be entirely fair though I enjoyed PPE most with my Ley Line Walker in Rifts as the free points per round from operating on a line was one of the main ways to compete with some the later ridiculous tech in that setting.
PPE also allowed for better balance between levels via the fixed recovery rate... a higher PPE total meant deeper reserves for an emergency, but a 1st and a 15th level Line Walker both still needed an hour per 15 PPE spent to recharge. Basically, it kept advancement more linear (damage went up per level linearly, but the sustained rate you could burn through your PPE did not; only your emergency PPE reserves you'd only really be able to recover during downtime).
That was one of those emergent complexity elements of design that I always appreciate in a system. The 1st level Line Walker with 100 PPE and the 15th level with 240 PPE, both still only regain 15/hour of meditation... so your practical cap regardless of level is per day is 120 if you get 8 hours/night. The 15th level has another 120 PPE they can burn in an emergency, but they're only going to be able to recharge that on an adventure at a rate of 120-PPE expenditure for the day; so going big in an emergency requires several days of holding back before you're reserves are full.
One thing about Palladium's magic system (lore) that I liked. A spell's level was not (by the lore) indicative of it's power but how common the spell was.
Bit of thread necro but I'm about to pull the trigger on Amazon and buy a bunch of the 1E books, but before I do so I've one more question about 1E vs. 1ER.
Is the interior art exactly the same in 1E vs. 1ER?
As if it's different, even a bit I might buy both 1E & 1ER for more old school art goodness.
EDIT
Also how different are the 1st and 2nd editions of "Book One: Old Ones" & "Book Two: High Seas"?
Is it worth buying both versions of Books 1 and 2, or are they basically the same books and a waste unless I'm an obsessive collector/completist.
My suggestion is ask these questions on the Palladium Fantasy board on Palladium's site. Lots of good people there chugging along who are really happy to go DEEP in questions about 1e vs. 1e revised. You might even find the answers in previous threads there too.
Quote from: HMWHC on December 31, 2021, 02:56:24 AM
Bit of thread necro but I'm about to pull the trigger on Amazon and buy a bunch of the 1E books, but before I do so I've one more question about 1E vs. 1ER.
Be careful, because I have bought some "vintage" or specific format or specific editions from the Amazon marketplace and they will frequently send you the wrong edition, wrong cover, or the paperback instead of a hardback with older games. I had this trouble with Palladium and Hero 5th edition stuff the most. The picture and description might be wrong for the item so you order and get something other than what you wanted. Some of the old D20 books worked like this too. You'd want the 2nd edition in hard back that was pictured but you get a paperback of 3rd.
Quote from: HMWHC on December 31, 2021, 02:56:24 AM
Bit of thread necro but I'm about to pull the trigger on Amazon and buy a bunch of the 1E books, but before I do so I've one more question about 1E vs. 1ER.
Is the interior art exactly the same in 1E vs. 1ER?
As if it's different, even a bit I might buy both 1E & 1ER for more old school art goodness.
EDIT
Also how different are the 1st and 2nd editions of "Book One: Old Ones" & "Book Two: High Seas"?
Is it worth buying both versions of Books 1 and 2, or are they basically the same books and a waste unless I'm an obsessive collector/completist.
1: Far as I know the only change was the cover if its 1e to 1e-r, also they removed the Sexual Deviancy part of the Insanity tables. Not sure what book, but one of mine has a piece of paper (badly) glued over a page.
2: Think those were mostly unchanged?
3: Far as I know the changes were minimal so aside from possibly different covers and that table removal they should be the same overall. This was before Palladium had the big revision craze phase. If I recall right more than a few "revised" books from Palladium were essentially second or X printings of the book with small or no changes other than adding "revised" somewhere. Heroes Unlimited is an exception as that ones revised I believe added some conversion notes and other material. Mines in storage so can not check.
Addendum... Buuuut. Changes to revised sometimes did not happen till later printings so theres actually more than one version of revised Palladium, early prints apparently still have the tables, later do not for example. Looks like my version with the sticker was 4th print. So revised was still the same as 1st up to 3rd print and technically 4th print.
This is what was in up to 3rd printing circa 1986 and the insanity tables under Neurosis.
Quote
Sexual Deviation (mother was a weirdo, too) roll percentile for the following table:
1-20 Homosexuality (or heterosexual if already gay) Sexually attracted to the same sex.
21-29 Fetishism (roll on Phobia table) sexually attracted/excited by objects.
30 Pedophilia sexually attracted to children.
31-40 Transvestism dress in the opposite sex's clothing.
41-50 Exhibitionism "flasher", exposes genitals for the thrill of it.
51-60 Sadism derive pleasure from inflicting or observing pain.
61-70 Masochism derive pleasure from feeling pain.
71-75 Necrophilia sexually excited/attracked by dead things and people.
76-80 Anti-sex prude, very upset at any sexual reference.
81-90 Satyr/Nymphomania insatiable desire for sexual experience.
91-100 Voyeurism "Peeping Tom", sexually excited by watching sexual acts.
Quote from: HMWHC on December 31, 2021, 02:56:24 AM
Bit of thread necro but I'm about to pull the trigger on Amazon and buy a bunch of the 1E books, but before I do so I've one more question about 1E vs. 1ER.
Is the interior art exactly the same in 1E vs. 1ER?
As if it's different, even a bit I might buy both 1E & 1ER for more old school art goodness.
EDIT
Also how different are the 1st and 2nd editions of "Book One: Old Ones" & "Book Two: High Seas"?
Is it worth buying both versions of Books 1 and 2, or are they basically the same books and a waste unless I'm an obsessive collector/completist.
1E and 1ER are nearly identical. If I recall the only change was the removal of one of the insanity tables and a change to the cover. The original was black with a 3 headed dragon in read (the image found on the back cover of 1ER).
As for Old Ones and Adventures on the High Seas - You want the 1st ed version as the 2nd ed are for Palladium Fantasy 2nd ed and have been redone to fit that version which made the game fit the current version of Palladiums System (Skills, Combat, Magic are all different in the 2nd ed version).
Edit/Note
All the of these books are available in PDF on Drivethrurpg as well.