At the behest of our very own Butcher, I'm starting a thread here to discuss the Paladins & Princesses style of fantasy gaming. Most of us are already familiar with the more grittier roots of fantasy and the inspirations- so we won't discuss that here! What is considered canon for this style of play? What games best represent this style of gaming? What modules, game worlds should be included here?
Right off it has me thinking of the early Disney films and the brighter fairy tales. King Arthur and Charlemagne.
A system that promotes bravery and valor, dissuades greed and 'murder hobos'.
I don't know it well but perhaps Pendragon comes close to that style/sub-genre?
Pendragon is close to Arthurian myths. Disney movies aren't really in the same league, sorry, I wanted to say in the same genre:p!
Question, do you want a system that rewards that style of play, or a system that doesn't prevent it and relies on players' buy-in;)?
When I think of P&P, I think of 2nd edition D&D. That's the edition that went in for a more story-like game. F'rinstance, the "official" change to the xp system, to reward xp for story goals, and individual class themed awards. The tone and art definitley changed as well.
When I think of Paladins and Princesses, I also think of 80's fantasy movies. Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, Ladyhawke, Dragonslayer, Willow, Neverending Story.
I think Dragonlance, the module series and the setting, is pretty iconically Paladins and Princesses. Which also brings up 2nd edition, as Dragonlance came in just a little before 2nd edition launched.
Quote from: Simlasa;928920Right off it has me thinking of the early Disney films and the brighter fairy tales. King Arthur and Charlemagne.
A system that promotes bravery and valor, dissuades greed and 'murder hobos'.
I don't know it well but perhaps Pendragon comes close to that style/sub-genre?
Quote from: Ratman_tf;928925When I think of P&P, I think of 2nd edition D&D. That's the edition that went in for a more story-like game. F'rinstance, the "official" change to the xp system, to reward xp for story goals, and individual class themed awards. The tone and art definitley changed as well.
When I think of Paladins and Princesses, I also think of 80's fantasy movies. Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, Ladyhawke, Dragonslayer, Willow, Neverending Story.
I think Dragonlance, the module series and the setting, is pretty iconically Paladins and Princesses. Which also brings up 2nd edition, as Dragonlance came in just a little before 2nd edition launched.
As the man who coined the term, I agree with these, although you'd be looking at the more sanitized and romanticized forms of the fairy tales and Arthurian and Charlemagne myths. Dragonlance is solidly P&P in the modules, setting and artwork, but there is one caveat I'd introduce--the Weis & Hickman novels have something of a cynical slant that undermines their usefulness for this genre, especially as they evolve.
Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson.
The Ur-Text of D&D.
As an avid reader of Savage Sword of Conan at the same time I ran BECMI/RC and played AD&D 2e, though murderhoboing is second nature to me as a gamer, I am very much interested in how Paladins & Princesses D&D balances the S&S roots of the game with the high fantasy/fairy-tale elements.
Which is why I'd like to nominate Star Wars as another huge influence. To me, Han Solo was the epitome of the individualist scoundrel thrust into a Good vs. Evil struggle who sides with the good guys when the push comes to shove.
The one other remarkable nominee I have in mind is Philippe Gaston (played by Matthew Broderick) in Ladyhawke (arguably the biggest fantasy flick 'round here in its day).
Oh, anyone here playing Beyond The Wall (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/113405/Beyond-the-Wall-and-Other-Adventures)? How do you like it?
If you are interested in the Paladins & Princess play style, I think you should check 13th Age which can easily acommodate this specific play style. It has Paladins who can work (and better pledge their allegiance) to at least 3 benevolent powerful NPCs called Icons in the game context (The Emperor, the High Priestess and The Great Golden Dragon) and you can easily put princesses (or princes or whatever title that catch the interest of your players) to rescue there.
Quote from: The Butcher;928929Oh, anyone here playing Beyond The Wall (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/113405/Beyond-the-Wall-and-Other-Adventures)? How do you like it?
I got it. Haven't had a chance to play it yet. It's got a lot of interesting ideas, like the character background system.
Zak S once asked what was the appeal of the Paladins & Princesses style on RPGnet, and the resulting thread was interesting:
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?669101-Paladins-amp-Princesses-What-s-the-appeal-for-you
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;928926As the man who coined the term...
...give us a list of your criteria for the genre, a "What is P&P", then we can all be on the same page, or at least have a better frame of reference.
Check out Prince Valiant, published by Chaosium ~30 years ago. Not only is it right down the center of the plate for this subject, but it is also an awesomely creative and well designed game, probably unlike any fantasy roleplaying game you've played.
Quote from: CRKrueger;928954...give us a list of your criteria for the genre, a "What is P&P", then we can all be on the same page, or at least have a better frame of reference.
Heroic and romantic, in all senses of those terms: Unapologetic good guys, grand quests, bright colors, melodramatic. From my second "Flavors of D&D" thread: "PCs are generally virtuous and altruistic heroes; even those with a mercenary streak tend to be more like Han Solo than Boba Fett or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. Combat tends to be dramatic but low on PC lethality. Exploration is about heroic quests, the thrill of discovery and interaction than logistics and resources. Interaction is a central element of this style, and tends to the melodramatic. Worldbuilding is also key, but focused on story and dramatics rather than ‘realism’ or the elaboration of premises."
Touchstones for the feel in my head include Howard Pyle and Hal Foster, the brighter parts of Tolkien and Lewis, fantasy and medieval films of the 30s-60s and 80s (I'm not familiar enough with 70s fantasy to say where it falls), select Disney films, and video games
The Legend of Zelda and
Dragon Quest.
Star Wars IV-VI translates this into a science-fantasy milieu. You could call it "Old Hollywood", "clean", "good-guy" or "noblebright" fantasy (the last term was brought to my attention by YA fantasy author L. Jagi Lamplighter).
D&D referents include Dragonlance (with the caveat about the novels), Elmore art, the general tone of 2nd edition, even moreso the art selection in the
For Gold & Glory retroclone, and the kind of D&D described in James Wards' infamous "Angry Mothers from Heck" column in DRAGON #154. :)
Quote from: Larsdangly;928955Check out Prince Valiant, published by Chaosium ~30 years ago. Not only is it right down the center of the plate for this subject, but it is also an awesomely creative and well designed game, probably unlike any fantasy roleplaying game you've played.
Agreed-and due for a 2nd full-color edition from Nocturnal in the near future. In fact, even if you missed the Kickstarter, you can still get in on the pre-order here (https://camelot.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders).
Quote from: The Butcher;928929Oh, anyone here playing Beyond The Wall (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/113405/Beyond-the-Wall-and-Other-Adventures)? How do you like it?
I like the character creation more than I do the one in any other OSR game. That's a recommendation that spans dozens of systems, if anyone's asking;)
Combat is, however, bloody. It would be largely improved by adding something like the Stunts from Tunnels&Trolls (or like the Exploits from Low Fantasy, which are halfway between Stunts and Mighty Deeds:p).
Quote from: Larsdangly;928955Check out Prince Valiant, published by Chaosium ~30 years ago. Not only is it right down the center of the plate for this subject, but it is also an awesomely creative and well designed game, probably unlike any fantasy roleplaying game you've played.
OK, I didn't think I'd ever see you recommend a storytelling game, (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1861515217/prince-valiant-storytelling-game-by-greg-stafford) but obviously there's a first time for everything:D!
That said, the reviews are indeed breathtakingly positive (https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9189.phtml) so I fully agree that it might be the best option.
For that matter, the whole genre isn't really my style, but this game just might work for it;).
Personally, I'd play this. But I'd rather play it with Under the Moons of Zoon or Zenobia/43 AD/Warband. The settings of UtMoZ is better-suited, but if you apply a romantic approach, you can apply it to anything, Zenobia included. Besides, Zenobia/43 AD does allow you to have a Paladin...in a roundabout way.
Step one, pick a religion that fits your idea of a Paladin. Hell, you can make up your own cult for that:). If any player rolls under 4 for Fate, give them that much. (You'll thank me for it when you visualize the battles:)).
Step two, explain to the players that following its tenets to the letter is the only way to spend your XP:D! (Yes, I'm serious).
Step three, look at the list of magic spells in Warband and re-purpose them for evil sorcerers. Now your paladins and princesses have antagonists! Don't worry about class balance: the spells are meant to be used by antagonists;).
Ok, so breaking this down a bit...
- Heroic and romantic, in all senses of those terms
- Unapologetic good guys
- Grand quests
- Bright colors
- Melodramatic
- PCs are generally virtuous and altruistic heroes
- More like Han Solo than Boba Fett or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser
- Combat tends to be dramatic but low on PC lethality
- Exploration is about heroic quests, the thrill of discovery and interaction than logistics and resources.*
- Interaction is a central element of this style, and tends to the melodramatic.
- Worldbuilding is also key, but focused on story and dramatics rather than ‘realism’ or the elaboration of premises."
- Howard Pyle and Hal Foster
- Brighter parts of Tolkien and Lewis
- Fantasy and medieval films of the 30s-60s and 80s
- Select Disney films
- Video games The Legend of Zelda and Dragon Quest
- Star Wars IV-VI
- Old Hollywood
- Clean
- Good-guy
- Noblebright
- Dragonlance (with the caveat about the novels)
- Elmore art
- General tone of 2nd edition
Pretty much what I thought, what a friend of mine calls "Comic Code D&D".
*Eh, this looks a little bit like "Stupid common wisdom horseshit about Old D&D again". Sure the Dungeoncrawl specifically has (as necessary) logistics and resource concern, but there being no thrill of discovery...try to fail less. :D
Talking about P&P I'm going to link this quote:
Spoiler
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/155445342/what-i-want.jpg)
Now the picture isn't P&P obviously, but the reason I used the quote (which is abridged there) is to point out that there's really two worlds.
1. The way things ought to be.
2. The way things are.
So I see P&P as a type of Utopian fantasy. A place where Honor, Justice, Valor, Love, Compassion are more than just lies we tell children.
I kind of object to this type of fantasy in general because it essentially reinforces the idea that anything other than being a totally self-centered selfish piece of shit is an Unattainable Utopia, which is obviously incorrect. Utopian fantasy can be fun, sure, whether it's P&P or whatever you want to call Blue Rose, but, like Paranoia, it's kind of a one-trick pony.
I prefer Paladins who don't live in a world of P&P, but are trying to attain the world of P&P. By fighting corruption, fighting evil and living as an Exemplar, a Paladin reveals the Great Lie - that people have to be corrupt, that living like animals is the only rational way to survive, and shows everyone that spark of good/divine/whatever inside them that doesn't wallow in Vice, but can actually live in Virtue.
The Paladin isn't there just to fight evil for the normal person, the Paladin is there to show the normal person what they can be.
I contend that in a Paladins and Princesses world, there is no real need for the Paladin.
Now, obviously, it's a dial, not a switch. But, if you're talking about specifically playing P&P
as a genre, you're probably kicking it up to the point of quasi-surrealism, in which case, the Paladin isn't needed, any good fighter can do...and there are many of them. In a P&P world, the Paladins won ages ago, and all retired. :)
I think Beyond the Wall would do very well indeed for P&P style gaming. It is wrtitten to emulate coming of age fantasy, Lloyd Alexander's "Prydain", Narnia, the Hobbit, Earthsea.
The character creation system creates young heroes with ties to their community. Even playbooks like the Untested Thief and reformed Bully assume that the character is basically a "good guy". The Would-be Knight is perfect for the aspiring paladin, and the Nobleman's Wild Daughter gives us Princess Eilonwy.
Combat is pretty quick and bloody, as in most low level D&D. But characters do recieve Fortune Points which can be used to stave off death, among other things.
BtW has rapidly become my favorite itteration of the D&D chassis.
Quote from: CRKrueger;928969Now the picture isn't P&P obviously, but the reason I used the quote (which is abridged there) is to point out that there's really two worlds.
1. The way things ought to be.
2. The way things are.
So I see P&P as a type of Utopian fantasy. A place where Honor, Justice, Valor, Love, Compassion are more than just lies we tell children.
I kind of object to this type of fantasy in general because it essentially reinforces the idea that anything other than being a totally self-centered selfish piece of shit is an Unattainable Utopia, which is obviously incorrect.
I posit that the
world of P&P, as a whole, is not necessarily utopian (witness the sorry state of late Third Age Middle-Earth from Bree to Gondor to Umbar and Far Harad), even if the protagonists themselves may hail from "pockets" of utopia (typically rural and bucolic and Merrie England-ish), and set out from their homeland to defend it from something that threatens the world as a whole.
They ride forth from pockets of Good the better to defend them from encroaching Evil. Contrast with S&S protagonists who often hail from barbaric tribes at the rugged edges of human dominion, or the mean streets of a fantasy metropolis, all places where life is cheap and where hardship tempers them into Nietzschean overmen. And though they tend to be harsh, unforgiving types as befits one who hails from harsh, unforgiving lands (S&S has this Naturalist streak a mile wide), they recognize the value of civilization and the rule of law and may indeed become its champions, e.g. King Conan.
They ride forth from places where the rule of Law is weak, the better to defend it from encroaching Chaos. (I'm not being subtle about the one-axis vs. two-axes alignment divide here, am I?)
Often there is melancholic talk of a Golden Age who were actually Good and just and hard-working predecessors to modern man (as opposed to, say, debauched slave-owning sorcerer-kings) who pushed back Evil when the world was young (rather than, say, opening portals to other dimensions and summoning eldricht horrors to do their bidding), but in time were brought low by arrogance and complacency (actually the same thing happened to the sorcerer-kings... fucking fantasy writers all read Spengler and Toynbee, it was definitely a thing back then, as was decolonization i.e. empires getting dismantled) and now, once more Evil menaces all that is Good (or some idiot warlock is hellbent on opening the vaults of the old ones and awakened a nameless horror, or barbarians are at the gates, and through the short-sightedness of Man does Chaos/barbarism rise again to threaten Law/civilization).
Sword-and-sorcery is about building a new world from the ashes of an old one, and defending it from menaces within and without, without utopian delusions.
High fantasy is about restoring the world to its Golden Age template.
Quote from: The Butcher;928977I posit that the world of P&P, as a whole, is not necessarily utopian (witness the sorry state of late Third Age Middle-Earth from Bree to Gondor to Umbar and Far Harad),
High fantasy is about restoring the world to its Golden Age template.
See also, Dark Crystal, Willow, and The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.
Quote from: CRKrueger;928969So I see P&P as a type of Utopian fantasy.
I'd disagree. I think the idea underpinning the tone is that the world can be a Good Place, or a Bad Place, depending on what people do about it. There's usually a cycle where things are Good, then the good people become corrupted, and things slide into Bad, until a hero or heroes take it upon themselves to bring things back to Good. Until the next cycle.
QuoteA place where Honor, Justice, Valor, Love, Compassion are more than just lies we tell children.
This is true. Either because these virtues exist objectivley in the world, or that there are powerful forces that support the ideas. Or maybe a little of both.
We've certainly done this with some homebrew GURPS campaigns. Generally it involves interfering gods who interfere to benefit devout followers who stick to their codes, and sometimes sick them on each other's followers.
Quote from: The Butcher;928977Sword-and-sorcery is about building a new world from the ashes of an old one, and defending it from menaces within and without, without utopian delusions.
High fantasy is about restoring the world to its Golden Age template.
Wait, are you saying that high fantasy and Paladins & Princesses are the same thing? I'm not sure that's a given. High fantasy and fairy-tale fantasy are distinct to me but would both fit under the scope of P&P.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;929064Wait, are you saying that high fantasy and Paladins & Princesses are the same thing? I'm not sure that's a given. High fantasy and fairy-tale fantasy are distinct to me but would both fit under the scope of P&P.
Fairy tale fantasy would probably be too dark for Paladins and Princesses. No, I'm not being ironic, just thinking of a few well-known fairy tales:).
And I think the point is that not all high fantasy needs to be about Paladins and Princesses, but all Paladins and Princesses games are high fantasy;).
Reading this makes me think the difference between sword & sorcery and paladin & princess is like the difference in the art between AD&D 1E and the original run of AD&D 2E books (before they changed it all for cheaper, uglier art). Fairytale heroism and goody-two-shoes PCs and all that, right?
oh, and as far as the OP's question on that RPG.net thread goes, I guess the answer to "why a game where most of the kings and innkeepers and stuff tend to be good-hearted sorts?" is "stakes". If the people in your community are generally nice folk who you get on with then you're going to want to protect them way more than if they are mixed bag of good eggs and buttholes, which helps motivate you to take all those juicy heroic risks when it comes to protecting them. If the dragon's about to burn down the Inn of the Dancing Duck then you're going to be more invested if the innkeeper is your buddy and the inn is associated with all sorts of glowy warm feels than if the innkeeper is a rude dick and the last meal you had there wasn't very good.
Quote from: PolearmPatrol;929080Reading this makes me think the difference between sword & sorcery and paladin & princess is like the difference in the art between AD&D 1E and the original run of AD&D 2E books (before they changed it all for cheaper, uglier art). Fairytale heroism and goody-two-shoes PCs and all that, right?
That's a lot of it, yes. Although I personally associate 1E art more with "Knaves & Kobolds" and "Dungeoncrawling & Demons." :) "A Paladin in Hell" straddles the line between P&P and DC&D. :)
Some good stuff here so far. CRKrueger- nice list!
Willow is a movie that leaps to mind (god I love that movie- aside from the worst trolls ever). Legend definitely.
Larry Elmore's art is perfect for it, and right up there would be Keith Parkinson.
Disney-esque fantasy works, but I like that term "noblebright"
As far as rpg systems for this style of play- it can be a game that nails the tone- as AD&D 2nd ed seems to be getting a solid vote for. It can be a game that mechanically reinforces it- whatever.
I'm thinking it's a bit old westerns vs. Spaghetti Westerns... some John Wayne (though NOT The Searchers!) movie where rules of behavior are clear and followed by most of the people in town... people actually being as good and upstanding as they'd like to think they are, with a few solid protectors around for when The Other tries to prey on their good inrentions and naivete.
I like those older stories but I'd find it difficult to play that way... at some point I'd be wanting to subvert it, question it, poke it in the eye. Probably fine for a one-shot or short adventure though.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;929064Wait, are you saying that high fantasy and Paladins & Princesses are the same thing? I'm not sure that's a given. High fantasy and fairy-tale fantasy are distinct to me but would both fit under the scope of P&P.
I strongly identify Paladins & Princesses with the high fantasy genre. Fairy tales are a poor fit except in their most bowdlerized versions.
Some classic fairy tales would make Conan blanch.
Quote from: Simlasa;929099I'm thinking it's a bit old westerns vs. Spaghetti Westerns...
That's a good analogy.
Quote from: The Butcher;929121Some classic fairy tales would make Conan blanch.
Except that most fairy tales I know of retain a strong sense of the good vs. evil... and generally have happy endings for the protagonists, who are portrayed as the 'good' people. It's not that they don't have really dark bits in them, but the characters usually remain on their own side of the dualistic fence.
I might, with my modern sensibilities, see some of the heroes/heroines as gray shaded, but I'm not thinking they're meant that way. Hansel & Gretel pushing the witch in her oven, Snow White making the evil witch dance to death in boots of molten lead... it's all virtue signalling by the heroes that they know what's right and proper. Same as those good folks in Critter Bluffs who turn out to see the hanging.
Quote from: The Butcher;928977Sword-and-sorcery is about building a new world from the ashes of an old one, and defending it from menaces within and without, without utopian delusions.
High fantasy is about restoring the world to its Golden Age template.
I would say it's more about making the world a better place than it was. Golden Age mentality might have been true, or maybe it never was, but Paladins & Princesses is about making a change for the better and having it mean something. Have your (The characters) actions make the world that is a happier place.
Quote from: The Butcher;928977Sword-and-sorcery is about building a new world from the ashes of an old one, and defending it from menaces within and without, without utopian delusions.
High fantasy is about restoring the world to its Golden Age template.
I would say it's more about making the world a better place than it was. Golden Age mentality might have been true, or maybe it never was, but Paladins & Princesses is about making a change for the better and having it mean something. Have your (The characters) actions make the world that is a happier place.
Quote from: Simlasa;929151Except that most fairy tales I know of retain a strong sense of the good vs. evil... and generally have happy endings for the protagonists, who are portrayed as the 'good' people. It's not that they don't have really dark bits in them, but the characters usually remain on their own side of the dualistic fence.
I might, with my modern sensibilities, see some of the heroes/heroines as gray shaded, but I'm not thinking they're meant that way. Hansel & Gretel pushing the witch in her oven, Snow White making the evil witch dance to death in boots of molten lead... it's all virtue signalling by the heroes that they know what's right and proper. Same as those good folks in Critter Bluffs who turn out to see the hanging.
The original Faery Tales did not typically have happy endings. Red Riding Hood got eaten and that was the end of her, it was a cautionary tale about being wary of strangers. It was the Victorian age that soften them.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;929156The original Faery Tales did not typically have happy endings.
I'm no expert of course, but even with the earliest versions of Red Riding Hood there are versions where she tricks the wolf somehow and escapes.
I'm not saying they ALL have happy endings, but the ones most modern people think of when they hear 'fairy tale' do... to where 'fairy tale' has become synonymous with things going blissfully well.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;929156The original Faery Tales did not typically have happy endings. Red Riding Hood got eaten and that was the end of her, it was a cautionary tale about being wary of strangers. It was the Victorian age that soften them.
Well we can certainly acknowledge what they used to be. However, I believe that when you say the word "fairy tale" these days the average person immediately thinks of fuzzy family-friendly bed time fare rather than GRR Martin style lead-scorched foot stumps. With that in mind, I would still place fairy tales under the Paladins & Princesses label.
I think the use of the term "Paladins" is confusing the issue; despite being a correct use of the original term, D&D has so mangled the semantics that it's hard to distinguish.
If I were to describe the "P & P" genre, I'd use the phrase "Knights in Shining Armour". This phrase has a lot of semantic loading to it in English culture, it includes things like Mallory's Arthur, Charlemagne's, er, Paladins, and the Disneyified version of the Grimm fairy tales.
Aside from King Arthur Pendragon, I'm not sure what I would point to as a modern RPG exemplar of the genre. 4-colour superhero RPGs, certainly, Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple or Golden Sky Stories are of the same tone and theme, but for the base template? The closest I can think of is GAZ1: The Grand Duchy of Karameikos, which by virtue of needing to be bowdlerized for 12-year-olds smooths off a lot of the rough edges of D&D's S&S roots.
Although this:
Quote from: CRKruegerSo I see P&P as a type of Utopian fantasy. A place where Honor, Justice, Valor, Love, Compassion are more than just lies we tell children.
...is basically the list of Values for a Cortex Plus Dramatic hack.
Look at you, CRKrueger, making an indie storygame! I'm so proud.
Quote from: Simlasa;929169I'm no expert of course, but even with the earliest versions of Red Riding Hood there are versions where she tricks the wolf somehow and escapes.
I'm not saying they ALL have happy endings, but the ones most modern people think of when they hear 'fairy tale' do... to where 'fairy tale' has become synonymous with things going blissfully well.
Actually, the earliest version of Red Riding Hood has the wolf eating her, and the cautionary tale was "so young ladies pay attention who you let in your beds, lest it turns out to be a wolf". It's a tale by the financial minister of the Sun-King, told to the somewhat jadeded court ladies, what would you expect:D?
The whole outsmarting only came after that
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;929170Well we can certainly acknowledge what they used to be. However, I believe that when you say the word "fairy tale" these days the average person immediately thinks of fuzzy family-friendly bed time fare rather than GRR Martin style lead-scorched foot stumps. With that in mind, I would still place fairy tales under the Paladins & Princesses label.
The average person is mistaking Disney adaptations for the original. Thing is, an adaptation, by its very name, isn't the original, and probably lacks at least some of its qualities, depending on what it was adapted to do:).
In this case, the adaptations were adapted to be more like high fantasy, but in doing so, they mostly stopped being fairy tales;).
Quote from: daniel_ream;929176I think the use of the term "Paladins" is confusing the issue; despite being a correct use of the original term, D&D has so mangled the semantics that it's hard to distinguish.
If I were to describe the "P & P" genre, I'd use the phrase "Knights in Shining Armour". This phrase has a lot of semantic loading to it in English culture, it includes things like Mallory's Arthur, Charlemagne's, er, Paladins, and the Disneyified version of the Grimm fairy tales.
It is probably the best one-line summation of the genre, yes.
Quote from: AsenRG;929201The average person is mistaking Disney adaptations for the original.
So? What I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, the originals are irrelevant to this discussion. RPGs are designed by modern people with modern mindsets, targeting modern audiences. Fairy tales once meant what you are describing, but now, in the public consciousness, they mean this:
(http://i.imgur.com/ueUdAcY.png)
Which I would argue is a totally different feel and genre of fantasy than this (high fantasy):
(http://i.imgur.com/CJ1x0OY.jpg)
Paladins & Princesses can easily encompass and merge both these approaches.
Quote from: daniel_ream;929176I think the use of the term "Paladins" is confusing the issue; despite being a correct use of the original term, D&D has so mangled the semantics that it's hard to distinguish.
If I were to describe the "P & P" genre, I'd use the phrase "Knights in Shining Armour". This phrase has a lot of semantic loading to it in English culture, it includes things like Mallory's Arthur, Charlemagne's, er, Paladins, and the Disneyified version of the Grimm fairy tales.
Aside from King Arthur Pendragon, I'm not sure what I would point to as a modern RPG exemplar of the genre. 4-colour superhero RPGs, certainly, Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple or Golden Sky Stories are of the same tone and theme, but for the base template? The closest I can think of is GAZ1: The Grand Duchy of Karameikos, which by virtue of needing to be bowdlerized for 12-year-olds smooths off a lot of the rough edges of D&D's S&S roots.
Although this:
...is basically the list of Values for a Cortex Plus Dramatic hack.
Look at you, CRKrueger, making an indie storygame! I'm so proud.
Next thing you know I'll move to G+. :D
If I did make an Indie Storygame, I'd make a Medieval Catholic WitchHunter Cortex Drama Hack using as Values the Seven Deadly Sins vs. the Seven Heavenly Virtues just to see every storygamer across the world lose their collective shit. ;)
Quote from: CRKrueger;929215Next thing you know I'll move to G+. :D
If I did make an Indie Storygame, I'd make a Medieval Catholic WitchHunter Cortex Drama Hack using as Values the Seven Deadly Sins vs. the Seven Heavenly Virtues just to see every storygamer across the world lose their collective shit. ;)
You want to really drive them, and especially Cam Banks, up the wall? Do it for Dragonlance...basing it around the Appendix to the hardcover version of Dragons of a Vanished Moon, which mapped the sins and the cardinal and theological virtues to the Krynnish pantheon, and skewed the cosmology away from Balance in a more monotheistic, Good-is-right-Evil-is-wrong direction. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;929215Next thing you know I'll move to G+. :D
If I did make an Indie Storygame, I'd make a Medieval Catholic WitchHunter Cortex Drama Hack using as Values the Seven Deadly Sins vs. the Seven Heavenly Virtues just to see every storygamer across the world lose their collective shit. ;)
Especially when the PC in no armor stands at the gates before the advancing shield wall of goblins with open hands pleading for peace...
And gets the most posthumous xp for inheriting the Earth.
Quote from: daniel_ream;929176If I were to describe the "P & P" genre, I'd use the phrase "Knights in Shining Armour". This phrase has a lot of semantic loading to it in English culture, it includes things like Mallory's Arthur, Charlemagne's, er, Paladins, and the Disneyified version of the Grimm fairy tales.
La Morte D'Arthur and the
chansons de geste were, for the lack of a better word,
metal as fuck and definitely not in the same league as Disney's take on fairy tales. Or Dragonlance, for that matter.
To me, Paladins & Princesses (meaning the Zeitgeist of AD&D 2e) = Medieval (or more accurately, Romantic "Medieval") imagery + a universe operating on a High Fantasy logic of clearly demarcated and militant forces of Good and Evil.
Lots of settings have Medieval imagery in spades and wouldn't strike me as P&P at all; ASoIaF/GoT, WFRP, Greyhawk to name a few.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;928927
Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson.
The Ur-Text of D&D.
For me,
The Princess Bride is the first thing that comes to mind.
Which seems odd to me as it's a movie where a murderous pirate, a Spanish duelist who kills for fun, and a brutal giant, take on a corrupt prince, his torturer, and a professional warmonger, who are granted license by a weak and ineffectual king.
Yes, they step into the expected fairy tale hero roles but they're actually a band of vicious bastards. Very much like your average band of murder hobos.
La Morte de Arthur features adultery, murderous robber knights, dishonest knights sitting in company with the best knights in Christendom. The king orders mass infanticide after knocking up his half sister. Lancelot is mentally unstable and prone to running around naked in the forest, unaware of who he is. The ladies of the lake are dangerous sorceresses who have their own agendas. Even TH White deals with the ugly edges of the story. I often wonder which Arthur people read.
Quote from: AsenRG;929201Actually, the earliest version of Red Riding Hood has the wolf eating her, and the cautionary tale was "so young ladies pay attention who you let in your beds, lest it turns out to be a wolf". It's a tale by the financial minister of the Sun-King, told to the somewhat jadeded court ladies, what would you expect:D?
I'm pretty sure it's older than that... I remember reading that it probably originated somewhere in Asia... pre-1500s. And like most folklore there are a lot of versions.
Somewhere around here I've got a book of really old fairy tales/folktales, pre-Grimm... really trippy stuff that sort of rambles like I'd picture you'd get from a half-drunken bard telling tales for his supper. They're weird, but surprisingly not as dark as I expected... to where I wondered if some of the nasty bits, like Cinderella's sisters mutilating themselves, might themselves be later additions.
QuoteThe average person is mistaking Disney adaptations for the original. Thing is, an adaptation, by its very name, isn't the original, and probably lacks at least some of its qualities, depending on what it was adapted to do:).
In this case, the adaptations were adapted to be more like high fantasy, but in doing so, they mostly stopped being fairy tales;).
If most people think of the Disney adaptations when they hear 'fairy tales' then that's what fairy tales are to them. They're not 'mistaking' anything, they just don't care. They like what they like.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;929170Well we can certainly acknowledge what they used to be. However, I believe that when you say the word "fairy tale" these days the average person immediately thinks of fuzzy family-friendly bed time fare rather than GRR Martin style lead-scorched foot stumps. With that in mind, I would still place fairy tales under the Paladins & Princesses label.
Yup. It's the current meaning... similar to how 'Pulp' has mutated to it's present incarnation, which also annoys me.
When I think P&P, I think Disney animated movies.
There's a lot of grim shiznack in Disney flicks, and the characters and their loved ones suffer, and there's always genuinely scary moments, but love conquers all in the end.
Ravenloft and Spelljammer would be perfectly good P&P settings. Especially if the Domain Lords in Ravenloft needed to be redeemed instead of destroyed.
Quote from: Spinachcat;929262There's a lot of grim shiznack in Disney flicks, and the characters and their loved ones suffer, and there's always genuinely scary moments, but love conquers all in the end.
Especially the older Disney films, before they were musicals designed to sell toys (though I still want that Night On Bald Mountain playset).
QuoteRavenloft and Spelljammer would be perfectly good P&P settings. Especially if the Domain Lords in Ravenloft needed to be redeemed instead of destroyed.
Totally fits with the Fabian art as well.
Quote from: Spinachcat;929262Especially if the Domain Lords in Ravenloft needed to be redeemed instead of destroyed.
Yes, nice but not necessary.
A lot of people here are listing death, murder and drama as reasons for disqualifying something from P&P, but I would say it's the meaning and presentation of those events that distinguishes the style.
Death is OK if it's relatively clean and not dwelt upon for more than a few scenes. Alternatively, death can be horrible as long as it happens to evil people, but even then no visible gore, no PTSD for the heroes, and no philosophical angsting about who truly deserves to die and how.
Similarly murder can happen, but if it happens to good people they won't be major characters for us to linger on, or if they are we will get an indication that they went to heaven and/or cosmic justice of some kind will win out in the end. Either way, the surviving good people will almost totally recover from the tragedy and set about righting things. Murdering evil people in honorable confrontation is OK because they are evil, but heroes often won't have to worry about that because some random event (like a falling rock) or poetic justice (like the evildoer getting mauled by his own monster) will usually keep their hands clean.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;929212So? What I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, the originals are irrelevant to this discussion. RPGs are designed by modern people with modern mindsets, targeting modern audiences. Fairy tales once meant what you are describing, but now, in the public consciousness, they mean this:
http://i.imgur.com/ueUdAcY.png
"The masses got it wrong". "News at eleven", I think you people are calling that?
Also, which masses? Quite a few people here have listened to the original tales for bedtime tories;). These are some different masses you mean, because I pretty much don't know people IRL that wouldn't be able to tell the difference between "original Fairy Tale" and "disneyfied FT" (and most of the exceptions I consider to be stupid people for other reasons as well).
QuoteWhich I would argue is a totally different feel and genre of fantasy than this (high fantasy):
http://i.imgur.com/CJ1x0OY.jpg
Not really, it's not. It's just a different style of drawing it.
QuotePaladins & Princesses can easily encompass and merge both these approaches.
Definitely! They're the same thing, after all:D!
Quote from: CRKrueger;929215Next thing you know I'll move to G+. :D
If I did make an Indie Storygame, I'd make a Medieval Catholic WitchHunter Cortex Drama Hack using as Values the Seven Deadly Sins vs. the Seven Heavenly Virtues just to see every storygamer across the world lose their collective shit. ;)
Doooo eeeet:D!
Quote from: The Butcher;929220La Morte D'Arthur and the chansons de geste were, for the lack of a better word, metal as fuck and definitely not in the same league as Disney's take on fairy tales. Or Dragonlance, for that matter.
To me, Paladins & Princesses (meaning the Zeitgeist of AD&D 2e) = Medieval (or more accurately, Romantic "Medieval") imagery + a universe operating on a High Fantasy logic of clearly demarcated and militant forces of Good and Evil.
Lots of settings have Medieval imagery in spades and wouldn't strike me as P&P at all; ASoIaF/GoT, WFRP, Greyhawk to name a few.
Thank you:). I was getting tired of explaining the same thing.
Quote from: Simlasa;929247I'm pretty sure it's older than that... I remember reading that it probably originated somewhere in Asia... pre-1500s.
Maybe, but they're known in his version today;).
QuoteIf most people think of the Disney adaptations when they hear 'fairy tales' then that's what fairy tales are to them. They're not 'mistaking' anything, they just don't care. They like what they like.
Not caring doesn't make them right. It makes them wrong and unaware they're wrong.
But people that don't even know the definition of something don't get to decide what that thing is;).
Also, I think it's time I unsubscribe from this thread. I mean, that's the genre of play that interests me the least, why do I keep spending time discussing it:D? It's time to rectify it.
Have fun with the parting words, and possibly with the voting today. I am making popcorn while waiting for the results!
Quote from: AsenRG;929270But people that don't even know the definition of something don't get to decide what that thing is;).
Really? It sure seems to have worked that way for the definition of roleplaying. :D
The definition of "faerie tale" has changed. The masses aren't wrong, some people are just clinging to an outdated, overly academic definition. ;)
I just re-read the Prydain Chronicles. A lot darker than I remembered them being. Especially the later books in the series.
Mallory is indeed "metal as fuck". I am not sure which version of King Arthur people are reading to think it is all bright and shiny.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;929267Yes, nice but not necessary.
A lot of people here are listing death, murder and drama as reasons for disqualifying something from P&P, but I would say it's the meaning and presentation of those events that distinguishes the style.
Death is OK if it's relatively clean and not dwelt upon for more than a few scenes. Alternatively, death can be horrible as long as it happens to evil people, but even then no visible gore, no PTSD for the heroes, and no philosophical angsting about who truly deserves to die and how.
Similarly murder can happen, but if it happens to good people they won't be major characters for us to linger on, or if they are we will get an indication that they went to heaven and/or cosmic justice of some kind will win out in the end. Either way, the surviving good people will almost totally recover from the tragedy and set about righting things. Murdering evil people in honorable confrontation is OK because they are evil, but heroes often won't have to worry about that because some random event (like a falling rock) or poetic justice (like the evildoer getting mauled by his own monster) will usually keep their hands clean.
I think people can sometimes get carried away describing P&P to mean that nothing bad ever happens, which would make for a pretty dull adventure setting. :)
Quote from: DavetheLost;929284Mallory is indeed "metal as fuck". I am not sure which version of King Arthur people are reading to think it is all bright and shiny.
TBH I've read hardly any of The King Arthur stories. I was always more interested in Icelandic sagas and the Holy Grail stuff put me off. The ideas I have of it mostly come from old Hollywood versions, where most everyone is clean and pretty, the floors are polished to a high sheen, and a lot of the darker stuff is toned down or missing. Also, Richard Harris singing Camelot...
I wrote:
Quote from: Skarg;929051We've certainly done this with some homebrew GURPS campaigns. Generally it involves interfering gods who interfere to benefit devout followers who stick to their codes, and sometimes sick them on each other's followers.
but then others wrote...
Quote from: AsenRG;929068Fairy tale fantasy would probably be too dark for Paladins and Princesses. No, I'm not being ironic, just thinking of a few well-known fairy tales:).
And I think the point is that not all high fantasy needs to be about Paladins and Princesses, but all Paladins and Princesses games are high fantasy;).
Quote from: PolearmPatrol;929080... Fairytale heroism and goody-two-shoes PCs and all that, right?
Quote from: Simlasa;929099I'm thinking it's a bit old westerns vs. Spaghetti Westerns... some John Wayne (though NOT The Searchers!) movie where rules of behavior are clear and followed by most of the people in town... people actually being as good and upstanding as they'd like to think they are, with a few solid protectors around for when The Other tries to prey on their good inrentions and naivete.
I like those older stories but I'd find it difficult to play that way... at some point I'd be wanting to subvert it, question it, poke it in the eye. Probably fine for a one-shot or short adventure though.
Quote from: The Butcher;929121.... Fairy tales are a poor fit except in their most bowdlerized versions.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;929212So? What I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, the originals are irrelevant to this discussion. ...
Ok, I take back that "we have done
this", if the above is what many of you are referring to.
What we've done has been more akin to
The Princess Bride or
Stardust or Evangeline Walton's version of
The Mabinogion at one end, and closer to
Supernatural or
Excalibur or like the bloodier parts of Wolfram von Eschenbach's
Parzival without the heavy-handed Christian thematic causation, so not so much like Chrétien de Troyes'
Quest For The Grail (no blatant causation or literal notes or magic equipment delivered by river) except maybe for the bits about murderous tyrannical knights... done with gritty deadly tactical combat, where if a god is on your side, that means you get a blessed re-roll from time to time, and maybe some healing potions and knowledge of which weapons are good against demons. You win because your PC has good skills & equipment and/or because you made good moves that worked out on the battle mat, not because you were the purest of heart... though the guy struggling with his religious alignment's bless attempts didn't get answered (he didn't get to re-roll when he wanted to). Possibly some help from a fairy queen or dryad you meet, assuming you don't step on the wrong plant and are nice to animals in their presence. Except they want you to rescue the mortal king they've been making love to who was locked someplace where you'll have to try to hack your way through the not-so-benevolent fae who abducted him from her, and if you succeed, there are human assassins also looking for him, to try to wrap up the problem of the missing heir. And the PCs are to roleplay the human experience of real people in a world where this stuff is real and creating deadly conflicts whose outcomes are not certain and are determined largely by tactical decisions and good skills & good combat die-rolls. And no, your PC may die a horrible death at any time if that's what happens to happen. It really is up to you - your faerie godmother is not going to materialize but your faerie girlfriend might if she's an actual character hanging around the party at the time.
So this is more like it:
Quote from: David Johansen;929231Which seems odd to me as it's a movie where a murderous pirate, a Spanish duelist who kills for fun, and a brutal giant, take on a corrupt prince, his torturer, and a professional warmonger, who are granted license by a weak and ineffectual king.
Yes, they step into the expected fairy tale hero roles but they're actually a band of vicious bastards. Very much like your average band of murder hobos.
La Morte de Arthur features adultery, murderous robber knights, dishonest knights sitting in company with the best knights in Christendom. The king orders mass infanticide after knocking up his half sister. Lancelot is mentally unstable and prone to running around naked in the forest, unaware of who he is. The ladies of the lake are dangerous sorceresses who have their own agendas. Even TH White deals with the ugly edges of the story. I often wonder which Arthur people read.
(There are so many versions of the Arthurian tales, which each have various sub-tales which vary in their grimness and their cause & effect.)
Quote from: Spinachcat;929262When I think P&P, I think Disney animated movies.
There's a lot of grim shiznack in Disney flicks, and the characters and their loved ones suffer, and there's always genuinely scary moments, but love conquers all in the end.
Ravenloft and Spelljammer would be perfectly good P&P settings. Especially if the Domain Lords in Ravenloft needed to be redeemed instead of destroyed.
Ya. Disney films were definitely inspiration for at least one of our GM's, but with more human and grey-shaded characters, grisly consequences, sex, and combat (and love) results up in the air and waiting for decisive action and good or bad fortune.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;929267...A lot of people here are listing death, murder and drama as reasons for disqualifying something from P&P, but I would say it's the meaning and presentation of those events that distinguishes the style. ...
Hmm, well what we've done (in the minority of games where we do anything like this at all) is take the forms and themes and some of the magic powers, and used them as settings and/or inspiration for gaming more or less like the way we usually game. So there are paladins and princesses, and the murder and drama may matter to them and their gods and faerie lovers in ways that one would expect from them being the types of gods and faeries and paladins and princesses they are, but that's just roleplaying in character. It's not the absolute true cosmic meaning, and it's not that you aren't allowed to roleplay a grey-shaded human because we're supposed to be on some black&white morality assertion trip. If you fail at following one god's code, you're probably best stopping trying with that god and maybe finding another that matches your nature better. Good thing there's a pantheon and not one righteous patriarch, and that the gods tend to mostly leave alone the people who don't ask for their attention.
But no:
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;929267...Death is OK if it's relatively clean and not dwelt upon for more than a few scenes. Alternatively, death can be horrible as long as it happens to evil people, but even then no visible gore, no PTSD for the heroes, and no philosophical angsting about who truly deserves to die and how.
Similarly murder can happen, but if it happens to good people they won't be major characters for us to linger on, or if they are we will get an indication that they went to heaven and/or cosmic justice of some kind will win out in the end. Either way, the surviving good people will almost totally recover from the tragedy and set about righting things. Murdering evil people in honorable confrontation is OK because they are evil, but heroes often won't have to worry about that because some random event (like a falling rock) or poetic justice (like the evildoer getting mauled by his own monster) will usually keep their hands clean.
No, we don't do this at all. If horrible death isn't a possibility for the good guys, nothing (or much less) is at stake, and as usual, we have a focus on the game and having serious things actually at stake.
That is:
Quote from: Ratman_tf;929305I think people can sometimes get carried away describing P&P to mean that nothing bad ever happens, which would make for a pretty dull adventure setting. :)
Yes.
And like Asen, this isn't really my favorite style of play, though I've run games with elements of it, and very much enjoyed playing in games run by GM's who were more into it, who did a good job but still stayed on the sides I prefer of the lines mentioned above.
Some observations:
"Childhood is the kingdom where nobody dies. Nobody that matters, that is." (Edna St. Vincent Millay) I think there's an element of that in the Knights in Shining Armour genre. Death happens, but it's relatively bloodless, doesn't happen to the important people until the very end of the story, and it isn't presented in a gory and lurid fashion. Paladin (see what I did there?) from Have Gun, Will Travel and Bill Munny from Unforgiven are both Western guns for hire, but they're not the same.
Also, people get The Princess Bride all wrong, probably because Reiner is a comedy director. The book is both an explicit deconstruction of and homage to the fairy tale/swashbuckling genre. A lot like Mystery Men and Galaxy Quest.
I suspect people have different dividing lines between genres here, and that people are trying to declare a binary division between high fantasy as in Tolkien and this "Paladins & Princesses" genres. I don't think where one draws a line for binary distinction matters much.
I'd be more interested to hear in the specifics about how to run such games and what they were really like. For example, I once ran a campaign a while ago in the genre of Narnia - where the PCs were children from the real world drawn into a fantasy world. It was mostly systemless, and focused more on exploration and puzzle-solving than combat, as one might expect.
If I were trying to describe this sub-genre I think I'd go with Pre-Raphelite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Raphaelite_Brotherhood)meets Old Disney myself. Its a harder genre to game well than you'd think though. I've tried and its one of the few sub-genres I'd like to play rather than run it but getting it to feel right is tricky. Never really managed it to my satisfaction
Also its helps to have good players, IME Players tend to run cynical and to Knaves and Kobolds or Dungeons ad Demons or sometimes the others. I've seen net zero P&P games out of dozens of groups
Quote from: 5 Stone Games;929812If I were trying to describe this sub-genre I think I'd go with Pre-Raphelite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Raphaelite_Brotherhood)meets Old Disney myself.
Mix with Hal Foster and Howard Pyle. Season lightly with 80s fantasy media and Nintendo. Serve comfortingly warm.
Quote from: 5 Stone Games;929812If I were trying to describe this sub-genre I think I'd go with Pre-Raphelite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Raphaelite_Brotherhood)meets Old Disney myself. Its a harder genre to game well than you'd think though. I've tried and its one of the few sub-genres I'd like to play rather than run it but getting it to feel right is tricky. Never really managed it to my satisfaction
Yep. I think Paladins and Princesses needs it's "Ravenloft" (the module) to provide some kind of hook that players can grab onto.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;929831Mix with Hal Foster and Howard Pyle. Season lightly with 80s fantasy media and Nintendo. Serve comfortingly warm.
MMM. Tasty.
None of my players (mid 20's) know any of these things accept Disney and Nintendo (Zelda I assume?) alas
My old play group was more mature but also way too cynical.
I am trying to form a new gaming group though, maybe i'll see how it goes.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;929831Mix with Hal Foster and Howard Pyle. Season lightly with 80s fantasy media and Nintendo. Serve comfortingly warm.
Nice recipe, though I'd pass on the Nintendo seasoning and double down on the 80s fantasy media. Possibly add a dash of Tolkien/Hildebrandt?
Quote from: DavetheLost;929284Mallory is indeed "metal as fuck". I am not sure which version of King Arthur people are reading to think it is all bright and shiny.
Maybe T. H. White? (never read it)
My film list that gets the feeling right:
Ladyhawke
Legend (1985)
Willow (1988)
Quote from: The Butcher;928928The one other remarkable nominee I have in mind is Philippe Gaston (played by Matthew Broderick) in Ladyhawke (arguably the biggest fantasy flick 'round here in its day).
I love the way Phillipe chats with with God.
QuoteLook at me, Lord. I was better off in the dungeouns of Aquila. My cell mate was insane - and a murderer - but HE respected me.
QuoteI know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am.
QuoteWe have come full circle, Lord. I would like to think there is some higher meaning in this. It certainly would reflect well on you.
Priceless.
Quote from: CRKrueger;929215If I did make an Indie Storygame, I'd make a Medieval Catholic WitchHunter Cortex Drama Hack using as Values the Seven Deadly Sins vs. the Seven Heavenly Virtues just to see every storygamer across the world lose their collective shit. ;)
Though the setting is different, Pendragon would work as the system. It already has the Christian sins and virtues.
Quote from: DavetheLost;929284Mallory is indeed "metal as fuck". I am not sure which version of King Arthur people are reading to think it is all bright and shiny.
Howard Pyle for one. Hal Foster’s Prince Valiant would be another.
Quote from: Bren;930136I love the way Phillipe chats with with God.
That's not very far from my own personal inner dialogue. When I'm not thinking actively of something else, I'm praying.
My wife and I quote the "it certainly would reflect well on you" a LOT.
Quote from: The Butcher;929936Nice recipe, though I'd pass on the Nintendo seasoning and double down on the 80s fantasy media. Possibly add a dash of Tolkien/Hildebrandt?
Definitely a solid version; there are any number of seasonings you can add to the Romantic/romanticized/idealized fantasy base. (Now, I admit, the Nintendo element may be personal nostalgia mixing in. I'm thinking
Zelda, yes, but also
Dragon Quest/Warrior.)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;930323Definitely a solid version; there are any number of seasonings you can add to the Romantic/romanticized/idealized fantasy base. (Now, I admit, the Nintendo element may be personal nostalgia mixing in. I'm thinking Zelda, yes, but also Dragon Quest/Warrior.)
Hey, I've got a question for you AG, since you seem very Nintendo literate; would you classify Fire Emblem 4 (Genealogy of the Holy War) as Paladins & Princesses?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;930505Hey, I've got a question for you AG, since you seem very Nintendo literate; would you classify Fire Emblem 4 (Genealogy of the Holy War) as Paladins & Princesses?
Unfortunately, my Nintendo experience was predominantly during the NES/SNES era; though I've kept up with my favorite series since, I don't have the broad knowledge of the later era. Fire Emblem was after my time. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;930514Unfortunately, my Nintendo experience was predominantly during the NES/SNES era; though I've kept up with my favorite series since, I don't have the broad knowledge of the later era. Fire Emblem was after my time. :)
Fire Emblem 4 is from the SNES era, but it's one of those classics that didn't get exported so Americans have had to emulate it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Emblem:_Genealogy_of_the_Holy_War