Quote from: JonWake;684950Green Ronin did well with Mutants and Masterminds, but they've never even approached the kind of numbers Pathfinder gets.

Yes, I was saying they don't have a poor reputation rather than they rival pathfinder's sales.

Quote from: Haffrung;684948It doesn't look like Next will offer much for the hardcore char op crowd. So Paizo has them locked up. The question is how much of their fanbase (especially the DMs) hold their nose at the system in order to enjoy the adventures. If Next hits a couple early adventures out of the park, or comes up with their own take on the adventure path, you could see DMs start to drift back to the old country.

And every game needs to replenish its player-base to offset attrition. In the long run, the publisher best able to attract and gain new players will win.

My hypothesis on Pathfinder's success is threefold: it's the default 'this is D&D' system for a whole generation that came of gaming age in the early 2000's, they produce good work, generally, and 4e is not compatible with any other gaming system.

Of those three things, Paizo really only has control over one of them. If I were them, I'd be looking to ease back into the WoTC fold in two or three years. Not right away, but start making inroads towards compatible adventures.

Quote from: JonWake;684953My hypothesis on Pathfinder's success is threefold: it's the default 'this is D&D' system for a whole generation that came of gaming age in the early 2000's, they produce good work, generally, and 4e is not compatible with any other gaming system.

Of those three things, Paizo really only has control over one of them. If I were them, I'd be looking to ease back into the WoTC fold in two or three years. Not right away, but start making inroads towards compatible adventures.

Why?  They don't need do anything of the sort.  I imagine you think that trademark D&D is somehow going to be a big success again.  I really don't see that happening.  I'm sure it will do well at first, but after a couple of years it will become the edition nicknamed "We made it like you said you wanted, why are you not buying it anymore."  People have far too many options and no one has to buy trademark D&D to get their D&D.

Quote from: hamstertamer;684938All Pathfinder has to do is come out with Pathfinder Basic. A light rules RPG that is completely compatible with Pathfinder core (Advanced) rules.  And the best part, they wouldn't need two years to make it.  Doing that, they will make sure to keep and add those that want a rules light system. As long as they keep it high quality, there is nothing to worry about.

Quote from: jadrax;684949The playtest material seems to have been received quite warmly on Pazio's forums. You a,so see a lot of people asking for Pathfinder Basic... although the fact that Pazio has never really gone down that route suggests that they don't think their are enough to make the risk viable.

Even though it has been a huge success, Paizo seems reluctant to extend Pathfinder Basic to a full game, likely out of fear of splitting the player-base the way B/X and AD&D split D&D.

However, if Next does get traction by attracting new blood, Paizo might have to bite the bullet and release their own newbie-friendly version. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a rough plan for full Pathfinder Basic in their back pocket. The key would be making it compatible with standard Pathfinder adventures.

Quote from: hamstertamer;684956Why?  They don't need do anything of the sort.  I imagine you think that trademark D&D is somehow going to be a big success again.  I really don't see that happening.  I'm sure it will do well at first, but after a couple of years it will become the edition nicknamed "We made it like you said you wanted, why are you not buying it anymore."  People have far too many options and no one has to buy trademark D&D to get their D&D.

Because someone has to bring new blood into the hobby. That generation of 3x fans that Pathfinder relies on will get old and attrit away eventually. D&D has always been the point of first contact for the hobby. Without a broadly appealing and popular D&D, these other games will need to prove they can foster their own fresh player-base. I don't know if Paizo is doing much more than hanging on to the 3e crowd. Pathfinder isn't exactly the easiest game to learn or DM.

I don't think Paizo needs to do anything in the short-term other than continue producing high-quality adventure paths and the occasional supplement to their RPG. In the long-term, they certainly should be flexible enough to adjust their product line should D&D Next be successful. Whether that means they go with a Pathfinder version 2.0 or get on board with D&D Next depends on what sort of licensing Wizards offers, though.

Of course, D&D Next's success is not certain - partly because of Pathfinder and, from what I am hearing, 13th Age.

Quote from: Haffrung;684958However, if Next does get traction by attracting new blood, Paizo might have to bite the bullet and release their own newbie-friendly version. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a rough plan for full Pathfinder Basic in their back pocket. The key would be making it compatible with standard Pathfinder adventures.

I suspect so, too - but I don't think this is necessarily key to their ongoing success. They are doing a lot of things that WotC did, and Hasbro is doing now - extending their branding/IP to other types of games, card games, MMO, novels, etc. Less so licensing others IP (Pokemon). They are trying to sell the brand...and its working.

I like the idea of an extended Basic game though.

Sell stocks/shares, what have they.

IMO, the secret to Paizo's success -- from having spoken to players at GenCon -- is customer support.  Paizo fans love Paizo.  They like Pathfinder Society, they like the Adventure Paths, they like their web presence, and they generally like the release schedule and what's on it.  Paizo needs to keep doing what it's doing, relying on solid service and products, and they're going to see good results.  I mean, the Advanced Class Guide is due all the way out next August and I'm already excited for it.

Will they take a hit when Next hits shelves?  Undoubtedly.  But if I were them, I'd bank on the fact that Wizards is going to continue to have the same tendency to make missteps that made 4e so problematic (Essentials, for instance, D&D's online component, mixed support and the RPGA will continue to be poor in comparison to PFS) and that so far, Next is looking like it wants to be everything to everybody, which means the chances of it succeeding at that aren't terribly likely; whereas Pathfinder is content with being what the 3.x audience wants, which is much easier to do.

Third, I suspect one of the problems at work is simply expectations -- D&D 4e, for all its warts, was still the number one game in the hobby, and it wasn't enough, and that was before Pathfinder and the OSR movement and pdfs of previous editions took a bite out of it.  I don't think D&D 5e is capable of doing what 4e did, and 4e wasn't capable of doing what 3e did, so D&D is always going to be chasing after smoke.  I know that nothing I've seen of the 5e playtests made me even remotely interested in switching over to 5e from ACKS and Pathfinder.  I'll probably buy a copy of the core rulebook, just to see, but I'll be shocked if the product has me as excited as Paizo and the OSR have me.

Quote from: Haffrung;684960Because someone has to bring new blood into the hobby. That generation of 3x fans that Pathfinder relies on will get old and attrit away eventually. D&D has always been the point of first contact for the hobby. Without a broadly appealing and popular D&D, these other games will need to prove they can foster their own fresh player-base. I don't know if Paizo is doing much more than hanging on to the 3e crowd. Pathfinder isn't exactly the easiest game to learn or DM.

Paizo has brought new blood into the hobby with their Beginner Box.

I may play 3.0 on my longstanding D&D game, but my kids play Pathfinder strictly due to that Beginner box.  Paizo spent a lot of time and effort into what should go into an all in one basic game, and they created a winner.

Quote from: JonWake;684934If 4e hadn't been such a clusterfuck Pathfinder would be making the same money that Castles and Crusades or Dark Descents makes-- not much.

I fully believe this, it's why I'm playing Pathfinder.

I can only speak to my experiences, of course, but Paizo has built up a lot of good will.  

Their customer service top notch (including replacing two books that were damaged in transit with no questions asked and listening to the feedback and adding corner protectors on their hardcover shipments).  

I was a HUGE fan of Dungeon magazine (subscribed from day one and still have rejection letters for module submissions from Roger E. Moore) and still have all 150 issues.  WotC killing that magazine was a point of no return for me, I never entertained buying 4e after that.  

I also appreciate that Paizo has a focus on adventures, including the excellent change to their modules line.  Despite having never played any of the 70+ issues of their Adventure Paths I enjoy reading them and find the mix of adventure, fiction, bestiary, and world articles worth my $20ish a month.  

I like the kitchen sink nature of the world and I think their focus on one world to the exclusion of others is a strength.  Sure, there are some elements I'm not a huge fan of, and their constant return to Varisia gets a bit old, but there is a lot to like with the world.  I also like that they don't feel the need to advance the timeline or introduce some world shaking cosmic event every couple of years.  

Other than that, production values are top-notch.  The art is great, the maps are decent (though honestly I prefer a more DCC old-school approach), the typography and layout is creative and, most importantly, readable.

I'm a bit concerned about rules bloat but I am avoiding that by not buying many of the hardbacks anymore, and skipping most of the companion line.  I still pick up the occasional campaign setting book.  

I really wish they'd expand the Beginner's Box to 6 - 10.  I'd love to see them dual stat the first three adventures of each AP and have them come to a bit of a resolution at the end of the third so that those that prefer lower-level, simpler play could have their own APs.  I doubt they'd ever do that, though.  Heck, they don't really need to dual stat much, the conversion should be easy enough, but a conclusion mid-arc that would be satisfying for those bowing out would be great.

Despite being a bit meh about demons and such (the focus of the next AP) I'm sure it'll be enjoyable reading.  After that there are two APs I'm really looking forward to (as well as a few support products).  And Bestiaries, I love those.

Edit: Also having a resolution in the third book of an AP would entice Beginner's / Expert's Box players to start the AP and, when they get to the end of the third book and provided that conversion to full-blown Pathfinder is easy, they may just continue on through the second half of the AP and start playing full-blown Pathfinder.

This is adding to the sentiment of "keep doing what they're doing", but continuing their inclusiveness despite the recent bitching of a few is going a long way towards keeping my loyalty.

Having your existence acknowledged does wonders for building up warm feelings for a company and franchise.  And unlike certain self-appointed SJW's elsewhere, Paizo actually steps up to the plate and gets shit done.  And they do it without turning the game into a sexless or flavorless wasteland.

Following up the Beginners Box would be a welcome addition though.

Then again their adventure path for next summer is about barbarians and machine gods.  It's going to take a lot in a 5e adventure to draw my attention away from that one.

Quote from: JonWake;684946Let me rephrase this question:

Why is Pathfinder more successful than any of the other OGL hanger's on?

Because:

• OGL games other than retroclones are aimed at small niches;
• Retroclones similarly are split across multiple styles (0e, Classic, 1e, or hybrid of one of those + 3e;)
• Paizo responded very quickly to the announcement that 3e was going away than the announcment that TSR-era D&D was going away, so they lost fewer players during the wait;
• Many TSR-era players made do with what was already published and didn't feel as strong a need for a replacement;
• Secondary markets were flooded with more material for Classic and 1e/2e, so it was possible to pick these up cheaply until fairly recently;
• TSR-era fans were, until recently, almost exclusively older than 3e/4e players, so there's more "die-off" (figurative and literal...)

Quote from: hamstertamer;684956Why?  They don't need do anything of the sort.  I imagine you think that trademark D&D is somehow going to be a big success again.  I really don't see that happening.  I'm sure it will do well at first, but after a couple of years it will become the edition nicknamed "We made it like you said you wanted, why are you not buying it anymore."  People have far too many options and no one has to buy trademark D&D to get their D&D.

You're assuming that it won't.  Even when 4e was being published, even with it losing a significant chunk of players to Pathfinder, Wizards was still the 800 lb. gorilla, outselling Pathfinder for several years. It's silly to think that they won't be again.