Quote from: Justin Alexander;688658OTOH, I don't know where you got that idea from, either. The Pathfinder Beginner Box was designed to be an introductory product for Pathfinder. It was never meant to be a separate product line nor was it designed to be so. According to all reports it's been a success and, AFAIK, it's still in print and will continue to be in print.

Word on the street is, it's out of print - http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pz9v?Should-I-wait-to-get-the-new-printing

Paizo has some stock left, but they appear to be letting that run through.

Many FLGS's are out of stock, Amazon definitely doesn't have any, and the online price has crept up over $60 for the box.

As further lack of support, I'd point out that they have refused to add it to their Compatibility page and have since released their Transitions document instead of any further BBox content.

From my view they tried it and didn't like something about what they saw.

Maybe '4e' isn't the best comparison, but it stinks of 'failed experiment' to me.

Quote from: mcbobbo;688679Word on the street is, it's out of print - http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pz9v?Should-I-wait-to-get-the-new-printing

Paizo has some stock left, but they appear to be letting that run through.

Many FLGS's are out of stock, Amazon definitely doesn't have any, and the online price has crept up over $60 for the box.

As further lack of support, I'd point out that they have refused to add it to their Compatibility page and have since released their Transitions document instead of any further BBox content.

From my view they tried it and didn't like something about what they saw.

Maybe '4e' isn't the best comparison, but it stinks of 'failed experiment' to me.

I didn't get that from the thread at all.  Sounds like they want to deplete as much of the stock as possible before making a decision.  I look at any reprint as something like what GMT Games does with their P500; they know that if they get 500 preorders guaranteed, they'll be able to make a profit on the game and will move forward with the production of whatever it is.  That sort of thing even goes for reprints of their most popular release, Twilight Struggle.

Knowing how methodical Paizo was in producing the BB, they'll probably be analyzing things and making changes before they do a reprint.

Quote from: mcbobbo;688679ns"]Transitions[/URL] document instead of any further BBox content.

From my view they tried it and didn't like something about what they saw.

Maybe '4e' isn't the best comparison, but it stinks of 'failed experiment' to me.

You completely miss the point of the Beginner Box. It was never meant to be extended and start a new line. It's a standalone, stripped-down version of the game intended to gently introduce newbies and kids to the Pathfinder system. It succeeded just fine at its goal. It got great reviews. Guys are playing it with their kids. It sold loads of copies. Mission accomplished.

I actually own it and have ran it before.

It's way too short.

Quote from: mcbobbo;688679Word on the street is, it's out of print - http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pz9v?Should-I-wait-to-get-the-new-printing

(1) Nothing in that link says that it's out of print.

(2) It's currently available for sale directly from Paizo. By definition, that means it's not out of print.

Quote from: mcbobbo;688679As further lack of support, I'd point out that they have refused to add it to their Compatibility page and have since released their Transitions document instead of any further BBox content.

From my view they tried it and didn't like something about what they saw.

I repeat: There was never any plan on Paizo's part to "continue support" or "extend support" for the Beginner Box. It was designed as an introductory product and it tells you to go buy the core rulebook as your next stop.

You keep claiming that they were secretly trying to do something other than publish an introductory boxed set and that it "failed". Do you have an actual source for this nonsense?

Quote from: mcbobbo;688697I actually own it and have ran it before.

It's way too short.

How can an RPG, open ended by nature, be "too short"?

Just curious.

Quote from: Haffrung;688694You completely miss the point of the Beginner Box. It was never meant to be extended and start a new line. It's a standalone, stripped-down version of the game intended to gently introduce newbies and kids to the Pathfinder system.

That was my take on it as well. And I used it earlier this year for exactly that purpose.

On the OOP thing:

I read the linked thread on the Paizo forum and I am a bit confused. I've had no dealings with Paizo so far but everywhere I hear and read (even in this thread) that the major difference between WotC and Paizo is Paizo's top notch customer service and ability to communicate with their fans.

And yet, here we have a clear question ("do you plan to reprint the Beginner Box?") that could be answered really quick with a "yes - no - not decided yet - waiting for Next to decide".
The prices of remaining stock in the market seem to skyrocket, customers ask "should we buy now, is this the last opportunity to get that product at all, or should we wait for a reprint?", and Paizo says basically nothing. They even say that their standard answer (that some posters received via e-mail) was just a copy-and-paste standard answer.

Is that exemplary of Paizo's stellar customer service?

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;688761That was my take on it as well. And I used it earlier this year for exactly that purpose.

On the OOP thing:

I read the linked thread on the Paizo forum and I am a bit confused. I've had no dealings with Paizo so far but everywhere I hear and read (even in this thread) that the major difference between WotC and Paizo is Paizo's top notch customer service and ability to communicate with their fans.

And yet, here we have a clear question ("do you plan to reprint the Beginner Box?") that could be answered really quick with a "yes - no - not decided yet - waiting for Next to decide".
The prices of remaining stock in the market seem to skyrocket, customers ask "should we buy now, is this the last opportunity to get that product at all, or should we wait for a reprint?", and Paizo says basically nothing. They even say that their standard answer (that some posters received via e-mail) was just a copy-and-paste standard answer.

Is that exemplary of Paizo's stellar customer service?

That's Paizo's CS people not wanting to go on record for a decision best left to management.  I presume that they want to see what will happen with Next, too, but they're pushing full steam ahead with their Bestiary 2 Box.  I think you can say that is a direct descendent of the Beginner Box, as one of the items about the BB that got raves was the collection of pawns on heavy cardboard to use in your games.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;688721You keep claiming that they were secretly trying to do something other than publish an introductory boxed set and that it "failed". Do you have an actual source for this nonsense?

Please recall that you tend to throw a hissy fit any time anyone uses any form of hyperbole regarding what you said.  In that light, go find the word "secret" in anything I said.

I can happily rephrase though to more clearly convey what I actually meant - I expected the BBox to transition non-RPG playing 'noobs' into consuming Paizo's core product, the APs.

It doesn't do that.

Quote from: Piestrio;688723How can an RPG, open ended by nature, be "too short"?

Just curious.

Because it doesn't connect you to their core product.  It isn't the gateway drug that the Red Box was.  I don't know about you, but I was still doing a lot of things wrong after finishing my first module in the 80s.  I was in no way ready to dive in to AD&D.  And that's a bad comparison because:

1) Pathfinder is a hell of a lot more complex than AD&D.
2) There were a ton of Basic materials - B/X modules, Expert Set, Rules Cyclopedia, etc.

Looking at as an accomplished gamer it seems pretty solid.  But take all that away and I worry that a true 'noob' will walk.  They may well still keep playing RPGs, but Next/WoTC is a more logical transition for them than Pathfinder.

Could be I am just crazy and have insulted someone's sacred cow.  Apologies if so, on both counts.

Quote from: mcbobbo;688790Please recall that you tend to throw a hissy fit any time anyone uses any form of hyperbole regarding what you said.  In that light, go find the word "secret" in anything I said.

I can happily rephrase though to more clearly convey what I actually meant - I expected the BBox to transition non-RPG playing 'noobs' into consuming Paizo's core product, the APs.

It doesn't do that.



Because it doesn't connect you to their core product.  It isn't the gateway drug that the Red Box was.  I don't know about you, but I was still doing a lot of things wrong after finishing my first module in the 80s.  I was in no way ready to dive in to AD&D.  And that's a bad comparison because:

1) Pathfinder is a hell of a lot more complex than AD&D.
2) There were a ton of Basic materials - B/X modules, Expert Set, Rules Cyclopedia, etc.

Looking at as an accomplished gamer it seems pretty solid.  But take all that away and I worry that a true 'noob' will walk.  They may well still keep playing RPGs, but Next/WoTC is a more logical transition for them than Pathfinder.

Could be I am just crazy and have insulted someone's sacred cow.  Apologies if so, on both counts.

I think the goal of the pathfinder beginners box is simpler than that.
 
It's to get people that have not played an rpg interested in rpgs and ideally to buy pathfinder products.

Quote from: Bill;688792I think the goal of the pathfinder beginners box is simpler than that.
 
It's to get people that have not played an rpg interested in rpgs and ideally to buy pathfinder products.

This.

They spent time with focus groups and having a lot of kids try out the BB, tweaking it as needed to get it right.  Perhaps some people complain about the video game feel to the books, but that was done deliberately so that people familiar with video games but not pencil and paper RPGs could get up and running more quickly.  They wanted the anti-textbook, which is what RPGs too often turn into.  And, admittedly, Paizo's splatbooks are no exception.

Quote from: mcbobbo;688790Looking at as an accomplished gamer it seems pretty solid.  But take all that away and I worry that a true 'noob' will walk.  They may well still keep playing RPGs, but Next/WoTC is a more logical transition for them than Pathfinder.

If Next does prove more attractive to new players, even those who try the Pathfinder Beginner Box first, then you might see Paizo reluctantly extend the system. But they won't do it unless they feel compelled to - splitting the game into two streams is seen as a cardinal mistake in the RPG world.

Quote from: Haffrung;688816If Next does prove more attractive to new players, even those who try the Pathfinder Beginner Box first, then you might see Paizo reluctantly extend the system. But they won't do it unless they feel compelled to - splitting the game into two streams is seen as a cardinal mistake in the RPG world.

I agree.  In fact this is what I suspect they saw.  They were able to create what they intended, but it didn't have the impact they imagined.

But (hi JA!) that's just a guess on my part

Quote from: Haffrung;688816splitting the game into two streams is seen as a cardinal mistake in the RPG world.

Why?

Quote from: Piestrio;688838Why?

Lisa actually cites it as the biggest reason that TSR failed.

I understand the concept as deliberately limiting the audience for your products.  So instead of having more/new customers, you actually just split the ones you previously had.

I don't necessarily agree, particularly with something like the BBox, but they do believe it in general oved at Paizo.