Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2021, 07:43:55 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Unless the bad guys are "oppressors", in which case all bets are off.

You mean white people, right?  They can be slaughtered without consequence in wokeRPG...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 26, 2021, 09:22:10 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2021, 07:43:55 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Unless the bad guys are "oppressors", in which case all bets are off.

You mean white people, right?  They can be slaughtered without consequence in wokeRPG...

I think the snowflakes are moving more to a position where even the existence of oppressors who need slaughtering is triggering. Hence the Paizo situation, and many other works becoming increasingly bland. I can't get over how Achtung! Cthulu's Nazis never actually seem to do anything horrible. You have to go back to the 1970s -80s source material to de-blandify the setting. And this now seems ubiquitous. It's good to punch Nazis, but we mustn't depict the Nazis doing anything that merits punching them. They're not even allowed swastikas any more.

It all converges on a giant bowl of Kool Aid.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2021, 07:43:55 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Unless the bad guys are "oppressors", in which case all bets are off.

That's where the mystery part of the adventure comes into play. Trying to figure out how white men are responsible: did their xenophobia cause them to ruthlessly murder the poor monster's children? did their toxic masculinity force them to hunt monsters for sport? did their greed cause them to destroy the monster's natural habitat through unsustainable farming methods?

The possibilities are endless.

It's all about identity, not action. Nazis are evil because they are Nazis. The PC is a hero because the character sheet says so. Action causes conflict and unleashes the narrative. That's "problematic." Backstory and identity are safe and controllable. You can still have slavers; they just can't be depicted doing slavery.

Quote from: S'mon on December 26, 2021, 09:47:28 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 26, 2021, 09:22:10 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 26, 2021, 07:43:55 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 25, 2021, 07:49:34 PM

Quote from: Wntrlnd on December 25, 2021, 07:41:07 PM
One start to think what the end-goal of the woke products will be if there are no antagonists, no monsters, no conflicts.

Are the Players adventurers whose greatest deeds will be to save kittens down from trees?

The adventurers that find common ground with the misunderstood bad guy and solve the problem peacefully and equitably are the true heroes!

Unless the bad guys are "oppressors", in which case all bets are off.

You mean white people, right?  They can be slaughtered without consequence in wokeRPG...

I think the snowflakes are moving more to a position where even the existence of oppressors who need slaughtering is triggering. Hence the Paizo situation, and many other works becoming increasingly bland. I can't get over how Achtung! Cthulu's Nazis never actually seem to do anything horrible. You have to go back to the 1970s -80s source material to de-blandify the setting. And this now seems ubiquitous. It's good to punch Nazis, but we mustn't depict the Nazis doing anything that merits punching them. They're not even allowed swastikas any more.

But but but?!?! To hear the antifa thugs, everyone who isn't out burning and looting is a Nazi that deserves punching.

Quote from: S'mon on December 26, 2021, 09:47:28 AMI can't get over how Achtung! Cthulu's Nazis never actually seem to do anything horrible. You have to go back to the 1970s -80s source material to de-blandify the setting. And this now seems ubiquitous. It's good to punch Nazis, but we mustn't depict the Nazis doing anything that merits punching them. They're not even allowed swastikas any more.

Nazi's are evil because of what they believe, not what they do. It's the whole idea of macro-ethics. it doesn't matter what you do in your own personal life, your goodness or badness depends on what political ideas you support. It's why leftist still defend people even when they burndown people's businesses, hit people in the head with bike locks, coerce women into sex, or have decade old kickstarters go unfulfilled. As long as those people openly support the correct political positions, they aren't "bad" people.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 25, 2021, 06:41:59 PMI wonder if they were trying to go for something akin to how black troops were recruited during the American Civil War?

Still, boy howdy I'd hate to try and sell that plotline to ANYONE.

I have obviously not read the very large texts that all the drama is about, but - yeah, something like that seems to have been part of the considerations regarding the intended narrative. It's even somewhat justifiable from the POV that Paizo wants to keep their games marketable to highschoolers, and can't realistically go completely "Game of Thrones Season Six" on people - which seems to have been one of the more obvious models there, both for the city setting in general, as well as for the campaign.

That said, the people who okay'ed this, they need to go and meditate on a mountain for a year. Not a fan of "sensitivity editors" myself, but this is what they're hired for - and that Paizo apparently overlooked any concerns that must have been there, a freaking scandal. So much virtue-signaling, and so much shaming of perceived "thought-crime offenders", but then the powers that be apparently decide that the way to treat slavery in their realms of fantasy is a good ol' "Uncle Tom" tale.

- That's deeply unprofessional, more than it is "-ist" of anything. I wouldn't be surprised if Paizo house staff saw some bigger changes in the not-so-far future. Oversights like this, they won't get you fired. ...But they will invite "we'll take it from here, son"-conversations.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

Ordered a copy of this. I'm not hep on demihumans in my sword and sorcery, but fuck it I can make adjustments.

Quote from: Thornhammer on December 27, 2021, 12:19:04 AM
Ordered a copy of this. I'm not hep on demihumans in my sword and sorcery, but fuck it I can make adjustments.

If it's any consolation for you, the Elves of Thule are a dying whacked out race of drug addicts hopelessly lost in their memories of their glorious past lives on their home world, the Dwarves are a minuscule population that lives in an isolated mountain city, and Halflings are pretty much just jungle Pygmy savages. "Demi-Human" races are not of any notably large population. The 5E version notes that just about any race from the core could come from out of the lost wild areas within the continent. I don't know what the PF version says, as I didn't bother to buy it. The Savage Worlds version makes no note of any race beyond Human, Atlantean, Elf, Dwarf or Halfling that I have found.

I asked my players to build Humans and leave the other races alone in this one. I got the inevitable request for a Demi-human character, and said fine one player character only, but all Demi humans are othered peoples and humans are automatically suspicious of them. They are pretty much on par with demons and monsters, alien creatures that are not to be trusted. So this group will have one of those addled Elves with them that they will likely either have to defend or save at one point during their adventures, and probably many times over. The player understood and took it in stride at character generation but we will see how he deals with all of that further along in game. We are using SW.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

Primeval Thule isn't a Paizo product, and the company that produced it is now defunct. So in all likelihood you won't see any revisionism taking hold on the Primeval Thule front.

Quote from: Dropbear on December 27, 2021, 12:42:53 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

Primeval Thule isn't a Paizo product, and the company that produced it is now defunct. So in all likelihood you won't see any revisionism taking hold on the Primeval Thule front.

That's never stopped the leftist activists - they've been censoring and revising practically since 5 minutes after Gutenberg's first print run..

Quote from: Dropbear on December 27, 2021, 12:38:10 AM

Quote from: Thornhammer on December 27, 2021, 12:19:04 AM
Ordered a copy of this. I'm not hep on demihumans in my sword and sorcery, but fuck it I can make adjustments.

If it's any consolation for you, the Elves of Thule are a dying whacked out race of drug addicts hopelessly lost in their memories of their glorious past lives on their home world, the Dwarves are a minuscule population that lives in an isolated mountain city, and Halflings are pretty much just jungle Pygmy savages. "Demi-Human" races are not of any notably large population. The 5E version notes that just about any race from the core could come from out of the lost wild areas within the continent. I don't know what the PF version says, as I didn't bother to buy it. The Savage Worlds version makes no note of any race beyond Human, Atlantean, Elf, Dwarf or Halfling that I have found.

I asked my players to build Humans and leave the other races alone in this one. I got the inevitable request for a Demi-human character, and said fine one player character only, but all Demi humans are othered peoples and humans are automatically suspicious of them. They are pretty much on par with demons and monsters, alien creatures that are not to be trusted. So this group will have one of those addled Elves with them that they will likely either have to defend or save at one point during their adventures, and probably many times over. The player understood and took it in stride at character generation but we will see how he deals with all of that further along in game. We are using SW.

The Elves sound like Melniboneans so that gets a pass from me. Id pick it up...but i dont play 5e

Quote from: Slambo on December 27, 2021, 10:53:18 AM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 27, 2021, 12:38:10 AM

Quote from: Thornhammer on December 27, 2021, 12:19:04 AM
Ordered a copy of this. I'm not hep on demihumans in my sword and sorcery, but fuck it I can make adjustments.

If it's any consolation for you, the Elves of Thule are a dying whacked out race of drug addicts hopelessly lost in their memories of their glorious past lives on their home world, the Dwarves are a minuscule population that lives in an isolated mountain city, and Halflings are pretty much just jungle Pygmy savages. "Demi-Human" races are not of any notably large population. The 5E version notes that just about any race from the core could come from out of the lost wild areas within the continent. I don't know what the PF version says, as I didn't bother to buy it. The Savage Worlds version makes no note of any race beyond Human, Atlantean, Elf, Dwarf or Halfling that I have found.

I asked my players to build Humans and leave the other races alone in this one. I got the inevitable request for a Demi-human character, and said fine one player character only, but all Demi humans are othered peoples and humans are automatically suspicious of them. They are pretty much on par with demons and monsters, alien creatures that are not to be trusted. So this group will have one of those addled Elves with them that they will likely either have to defend or save at one point during their adventures, and probably many times over. The player understood and took it in stride at character generation but we will see how he deals with all of that further along in game. We are using SW.

The Elves sound like Melniboneans so that gets a pass from me. Id pick it up...but i dont play 5e

Primeval Thule has Pathfinder, Savage Worlds, 4e D&D and 13th Age versions, too. These are all pretty generic + a rules appendix; I used the Pathfinder version to run Thule in Mini Six (it had some handy Hero Point rules for PF that translated directly to M6 Hero Points).

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 27, 2021, 09:44:36 AM

Quote from: Dropbear on December 27, 2021, 12:42:53 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 24, 2021, 07:22:54 PM
I am just glad that I bought a copy of Primeval Thule when I did.  There's slavery all over that setting.  Slavers are one of the main antagonists.

Primeval Thule isn't a Paizo product, and the company that produced it is now defunct. So in all likelihood you won't see any revisionism taking hold on the Primeval Thule front.

That's never stopped the leftist activists - they've been censoring and revising practically since 5 minutes after Gutenberg's first print run..

So again, the company that wrote and produced Primeval Thule is defunct.

This means that unless some leftist activists buy the rights for Primeval Thule, and produces a whole new version, you won't be seeing any revisionist version of Primeval Thule in which slavery doesn't exist, the Great Old Ones are really just nice guys who are misunderstood, the Elves are just wistful angsty pantywaists and not hopelessly addicted to drugs and lost in the memories of their ancestral homeland, and every furry race that was ever available to play in any RPG is represented in the setting and has a place, and the Beastmen are not all brutal savages who feast upon the flesh of other sentient races.