So I've noticed a bunch of posts on several of the big Facebook rpg groups of DMs running ads for their games, usually like $25 a session. What is everyone's thoughts on paid DMing?

Outside of D&Done you mean?

I think it'd be a great idea in general, as it can only go wrong in the ways that we mostly already expect to look out for.

I recently hooked up with Joe Zieja's Voice Acting Academy on something of a whim. I'm fully rated through the military now (disability), so income isn't a problem anymore and I've been contemplating the development of a personal vision for my life (namely, my occupation). As I went through the course - definitely recommend it for anyone who is interested in the practicality of becoming a voice actor in today's world - I realized that I didn't have the same draw and drive that other, younger individuals did. I just didn't care as much about the process as many of them did because developing an income off of voice acting wasn't really a necessity.

A friend from the academy messaged me earlier today to check in on why I hadn't shown up lately (as I'd been very engaged in the early weeks of the course). As we talked the issue over, she suggested that I needed to find a reason that was personal and interesting to me to pursue the goal of becoming a trained voice actor. I realized at that moment that the first reason that popped into my head when I originally bought the course was, "Well, I'd like to master my voice so that I can be a more entertaining GM." I realized that if there was one thing I could spend my time doing as a career or hobby, it would be running a bunch of concurrent campaigns for different groups all throughout the week.

There are some significant soft and hard skills that go into being a GM. As most of us arguably approach it as hobbyists - nothing wrong with that, mind you - there's significantly different motivation and drive going into our performance and our preparations. A lot of GMs I've talked to abhor the idea of either charging for their services or being under the gun to provide a service to paying clientele. However, I believe that being a paid GM (heretofore "pGM") has some significant pros (beyond getting paid):

First, you have no choice but to hone your craft. If you don't, your reputation is going to stagnate and you're not going to ultimately keep anyone at your table that isn't inherently loyal to you in the first place. Some people may well function better under pressure or with a looming deadline - and there's some research out there to back that perspective up. Also, some people are driven to perform based on the appreciation of a job well done and well appreciated.

Second, in the process of honing your craft, you will (if you're taking it seriously as a job) begin to develop a good workflow. You'll develop the ability to better spend your time as you create assets, do prep work, and complete necessary pre-game tasks. You'll value the time you put into developing your GM portfolio of tools and assets, and craft strategies for maximizing the experience of each session you host.

Third, the increased revenue will not only allow you to attach some significant objective worth to what used to be just a favored pastime but will also allow you to invest more into the craft. If you're an in-person pGM, that might mean acquiring more physical tilesets, miniatures, books, dice, etc.; if you're a digital pGM, that might translate into more PDFs, better streaming devices, a better microphone, or digital assets.

I deeply believe that there's a lot of potential to pGMing. I don't know if you can realistically make a living off of it unless you live in an incredibly low cost-of-living area and you are able to keep a very consistent workload, but if you aren't hurting for income then I think it's a fine option. I use StartPlaying as an initial metric: newbie pGMs are charging a pittance of $5-$10 per player per session, but some of the pGMs that boast higher reputations or are running more popular modules (like Kingmaker) are going for $25/player per session and up.

It definitely provides an incentive for people to show up to a session they've paid for instead of bailing last minute for dumb things.

A friend/former coworker is paying me to DM for his son and two other kids. He doesn't know how to run anything himself so he came to me and asked if I'd do it. I figured we can do a mini campaign of six sessions or so to see how it goes.

If I thought I could make a living GMing I don't know that I'd try to go that route, but you do have to admit that being paid to do what basically amounts to collaborative storytelling would be pretty sweet. Assuming you don't get stuck with any woke players. That would be worse than being in Hell.

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on March 10, 2023, 10:55:01 PM
Assuming you don't get stuck with any woke players. That would be worse than being in Hell.

You'd almost certainly develop a comprehensive application and vetting system. I'd also personally spend extra time on a free "session zero" just to make sure everyone is gonna work out.

Quote from: Ravenshire on March 10, 2023, 10:01:40 PM
So I've noticed a bunch of posts on several of the big Facebook rpg groups of DMs running ads for their games, usually like $25 a session. What is everyone's thoughts on paid DMing?

Like most of my hobbies, I'd hate to turn it into a job.

It's a cancer. DMing is fun, it's like paying someone to play with you. Kinda sad

My gut reaction is the same as Ocule's, but I suppose it's worth reserving some judgment. Personally, I cannot imagine a circumstance where I would pay someone to DM for me. Like Ocule says, you shouldn't have to pay someone to play a game with you.

However, I can conceive of a hypothetical situation where I might opt for being a paid DM. I play exclusively on VTT these days, which largely means playing with strangers (though if you play with someone for any length of time, they should stop being a stranger). So far, I've been blessed with very good players. They show up reliably, learn the rules, engage with the game, and behave themselves with other players. That's how the game is supposed to work. A group of people giving more or less even commitments to enjoy the game and keep it going. Under those circumstances, I would never charge. The way I see it, I owe as much to my players as they do to me.

But if I had the opposite experience, if all I could get was shiftless layabouts that constantly skipped games, didn't pay attention, and acted out, I could imagine myself going the paid route, just to get more invested players. Admittedly though, I'd be more likely to keep looking for better players or just stop playing entirely.

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on March 10, 2023, 10:55:01 PM
A friend/former coworker is paying me to DM for his son and two other kids.

Yeah, that's the thing: it's not necessarily the players who are paying the DM.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 11, 2023, 12:01:13 AM
Like most of my hobbies, I'd hate to turn it into a job.

Yes, but ... I've managed a few times to turn my job into a hobby, by selling RPG time to my employers as a team-building and creative thinking exercise. We played weekly sessions on company time.

Well, there are no men dressed as women performing sex shows in front of kids so I'm okay with the free market choosing the fate of paid DM'g.

Having said that, it seems really stupid to me. The point of the game is to have fun with friends.

Plus, if somebody is thinking they will get to live out their critical role fantasy for $25 they are in for a surprise.

Quote from: Ocule on March 11, 2023, 04:08:48 AM
It's a cancer. DMing is fun, it's like paying someone to play with you. Kinda sad

We're all adults now, the playground is too small and time is money, especially if you already have a good reputation for running games and need some extra cash.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 11, 2023, 12:01:13 AM

Quote from: Ravenshire on March 10, 2023, 10:01:40 PM
So I've noticed a bunch of posts on several of the big Facebook rpg groups of DMs running ads for their games, usually like $25 a session. What is everyone's thoughts on paid DMing?

Like most of my hobbies, I'd hate to turn it into a job.

There's no reason to believe that you'd have to charge for every group or every player all the time. If you get players from it that you really like out of some sessions there's no reason not to invite them to your private games free of charge. Good roleplayers with commitment and energy with good chemistry being rewarded. In that sense your "job" games and your "hobby" games could have some other degree of quality control involved that can suit your schedule, workload, and depth.

Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 10, 2023, 11:45:13 PM

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on March 10, 2023, 10:55:01 PM
Assuming you don't get stuck with any woke players. That would be worse than being in Hell.

You'd almost certainly develop a comprehensive application and vetting system. I'd also personally spend extra time on a free "session zero" just to make sure everyone is gonna work out.

You can run a few more levels beyond S-0 (first to third, or at most fifth?) if you set up a digital tip jar as a means to rate the session. You'd get the point of the game and your own skills across better and see who wants to stick around for more serious commitment. It's also easier to know who to prioritize slots for in subsequent trial games like that if they have a history of tipping you can refer to and it's a lower barrier to entry.

If you have the knack for it (and the inclination) live streaming your games would be a great next step that you could set-up a Patreon for, though that is definitely not for everybody.

Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 11, 2023, 10:18:19 AM
You can run a few more levels beyond S-0 (first to third, or at most fifth?) if you set up a digital tip jar as a means to rate the session. You'd get the point of the game and your own skills across better and see who wants to stick around for more serious commitment. It's also easier to know who to prioritize slots for in subsequent trial games like that if they have a history of tipping you can refer to and it's a lower barrier to entry.

If pGMing is going to be a thing, it needs to take a very long, healthy step away from being operated entirely as a hobby-for-fun. It will have many of the elements of gig work, and as such the pGM should view themselves not only as a GM, but as a contractor.

When you're getting your feet wet, yeah, I can see being more lenient or pliable with your fees. However, the industry seems to be settling into a certain going rate, and whatever rate you feel comfortable with needs to be consistently applied - especially in public games. The phrase "start as you mean to go on" applies well here, and if you don't at the onset establish the equitable exchange - your services for their dosh - then gradually working it in isn't likely to cut it. Once the sessions start in earnest, cash and dice hit the table at the same time. If you're going to do a job, any job, being shy about the payment structure isn't going to work.

I'm not jumping on your neck here, I get what you meant and where you were coming from, but I really believe that pGMing needs to be approached like any other paying gig.

There are a lot of prospective paying players. StartPlaying is just one platform that emphasizes this. Paying for a pGM might seem like anathema to a lot of people here, but there's a demand out there and it's growing. I believe that worry about finding serious, invested, paying players is misplaced.

Quote
If you have the knack for it (and the inclination) live streaming your games would be a great next step that you could set-up a Patreon for, though that is definitely not for everybody.

I'd probably reserve this for your private gaming group, but I think that goes without saying. It takes significant effort and time to build a following, but there is the demographic out there that cut their gaming teeth on the likes of Critical Role, and if you manage to tap into that, it'd likely turn a tidy profit on the social media side.

If people can grift 25 bucks per head for an hour then good for them (but I wouldn't do it myself unless it was for a charity). If you pay to play you are pretty silly considering you can get it for free.

Quote from: FF_Ninja on March 11, 2023, 11:50:07 AM
If pGMing is going to be a thing, it needs to take a very long, healthy step away from being operated entirely as a hobby-for-fun. It will have many of the elements of gig work, and as such the pGM should view themselves not only as a GM, but as a contractor.

When you're getting your feet wet, yeah, I can see being more lenient or pliable with your fees. However, the industry seems to be settling into a certain going rate, and whatever rate you feel comfortable with needs to be consistently applied - especially in public games. The phrase "start as you mean to go on" applies well here, and if you don't at the onset establish the equitable exchange - your services for their dosh - then gradually working it in isn't likely to cut it. Once the sessions start in earnest, cash and dice hit the table at the same time. If you're going to do a job, any job, being shy about the payment structure isn't going to work.

I can see where that's going: Mass table quit when you raise your fees and then you start over again. Trying to build something like Critical Role from the bottom up from scratch will be absolutely impossible and will require some other backing, and that's the kind of dotted line you put your soul on. Maybe a vigorous leap backwards is in order.