I been mulling around future projects. One idea that would like to bounce off of folks. That is a more realistic d20.

Now my favorite system is GURPS. But the big downside has been the work needed in stating characters and monsters. This is meant to rag on GURPS but acknowledging that no RPG is perfect. Plus there is the downside that there is no OGL for GURPS.

To me when 3rd Edition came out and when there was only the three books to deal with. The system seemed like a GURPS Lite and when I DMed it for a year I found the same style I used for GURPS worked for D20.

Now there is a whole bunch of D20 variants out there. Some are old school, C&C, new school True20, Superheroes M&M, some uses the OGL to recreate older systems OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord.

What I am thinking of is using some of the unearth arcana rules, (Wound Points, Armor Damage Reduction, Defense Rolls, etc) to create a version of D20 that would be better suited for Low and Gritty Fantasy. Deadlier and more realistic in its treatment of combat. But still retains the somewhat quick nature of D&D to generate characters and get away from the superheroish feel of D20 at high levels by making Characters more capable but not less vulnerable.

Any Thoughts?

Thanks
Rob Conley

Quote from: estarWhat I am thinking of is using some of the unearth arcana rules, (Wound Points, Armor Damage Reduction, Defense Rolls, etc) to create a version of D20 that would be better suited for Low and Gritty Fantasy. Deadlier and more realistic in its treatment of combat. But still retains the somewhat quick nature of D&D to generate characters and get away from the superheroish feel of D20 at high levels by making Characters more capable but not less vulnerable.

Any Thoughts?

Okay. Sure. Go for it.

Seanchai

My thought is that if ya want Grim and Gritty d20, my recommendation would be ta use the Grim and Gritty Combat System. We use and love it, and it definitely gives the game a grim and gritty feel.

I definitely like the idea but consider that to some extent it may have been done before. It sounds similar to Grimm Tales and to a lesser extent Iron Heroes.

Rather than use Unearthed Arcana variants, I'd like to see a fresh approach, rather than tweaking current systems.

A good example of what I am talking about is T20, or Traveller20. The combat system, die rolling method, and damage mechanism was really cool in my opinion. It is hands-down the best firearms combat variant for D20 I've seen.

I'm interested in where you go with this - keep me posted!

Well, Rob, join the club. I think at least half the d20 games out there have tried to be a more realistic, low fantasy D&D. On the one hand, that gives you lots of sources to draw from and lots of people's experience with such systems, on the other hand it shows that there's more than one way to approach it and it isn't exactly an easy task. That goes double if you're picking rules out of Unearthed Arcana, as combining all the changes is rather difficult.

I played some of the variants, as me and my group kinda like the low fantasy approach to things. Some were quite successful and most of them show that you have to change quite a lot, as just adding one rule could seriously unbalance the system.

Conan - Class defense bonus (up to 3/4 lvl), armor as DR (12+ for plate armor with great helm) and two ways to circumvent armor (finesse weapons have to hit AC+DR, brute force weapons halve DR if their armor piercing value + Str is higher than DR). Just using armor as DR and a high enough defense bonus will result in a game, where armor just isn't worth it. With the Conan changes, armor is a rather respectable defense while big strong guys with huge weapons still manage to cause lethal amounts of damage. Not exactly a gritty system, but definitely more realistic than bog-standard D&D.

Game of Thrones - Some rather big changes, one of the grittier variants. First of all, hit points are greatly reduced and a "shock value" is introduced, based on the constitution of the character. Damage above this constitution value causes penalties and possible unconsciousness. This has the "nice" side-effect of actually making the game less deadly, as the chances of being captured or left-for-dead increase. Other than that, armor is DR, class defense bonus and with some penalties to your throw you can try to bypass armor. Shields add to defense (as they did in Conan), but you can choose to ignore that bonus and thus hit and damage the shield directly. All in all a quite nice system. Sadly not supported anymore.

I'll skip further examples, as they tend to deviate even more from the core rules. I'm not a big fan of the VP/WP system, I'd much rather have some kind of damage threshold/shock value to add some side effects to damage. The default UA rules for armor as DR pretty much suck, sorry. The amount of DR is not high enough and armor still provides a few points to AC -- not enough in both cases. A rather bad compromise. Set DR as rather high and give the players some options to bypass it.

Check out Babylon 5 d20, especially the second edition. They combine most of the things you mention with slower hit point rate (usually only 2 per level). The higher level characters are extremely capable, but can still die to a single lucky gunshot.

Thanks for all the comments.

I have Traveller20 and some of the others system mentioned. I was combing Traveller20 for ideas to use and I have Babylon 5 first edition as well.


Since my whole impression of D20 at first was a GURPS lite. (Feats are advantages, Skills using attributes, etc.) I was thinking about the actual combat mirroring the GURPS philosphy and go something like this.

Here some concepts I was mulling around

CHARACTERS

I am thinking about using generic classes however I think the generic spellcaster stinks so I am not happy with just using them as is.  Like GURPS I want characters to mix and match as freely as possible.

COMBAT

You roll a d20 add modifiers including bonus for level
Your opponent picks a defense block or dodge and rolls adding his modifiers. If he equals or exceeds the attack roll then the attack fails.

A modifier could be a small modifier for shield and armor represent the glancing blow.

Any damage is reduced by the Armor's DR.
 
Damage, the application of damage. This is the big if in my mind. I was thinking wounds points and vitality but there seems some negative comments on that.

However the comment on "Massive" damage jogs my memory about harnmaster and how it treats injury. Which is a combination of keeping track of injury points and special results due to a single injury.

So maybe a system where when you get hit multiple time the worse that can happen is you go unconscious. Along with the more damage you take you get negative modifier to all your rolls. Finally added with special results including knock outs, and kills resulting from the severity of a single blow.

What do people feel about the option of hit locations.

Finally the question "If I like GURPS so much why mess with this?" Well GURPS does have some amount of prep time involved and it takes longer than D20. Combined with there is a ton of d20 stuff to use and finally there is no OGL provision for GURPS. (If there was I wouldn't be thinking of doing this).

Thanks for all your replies

Rob Conley

Quote from: estarDamage, the application of damage. This is the big if in my mind. I was thinking wounds points and vitality but there seems some negative comments on that.

However the comment on "Massive" damage jogs my memory about harnmaster and how it treats injury. Which is a combination of keeping track of injury points and special results due to a single injury.

Damn, I wrote a pretty long reply but the stupid browser crashed. So this is the short version...

The main things I didn't like about the VP/WP rule is that you have to keep track of more things and weapon criticals aren't as interesting anymore (19/20 vs x3). It also seemed to deadly for both Star Wars and D&D.

RoleMaster did it nicely, were your hit points just represented small scratches and being tired, whereas real damage was done by criticals. Warhammer also was quite okay, where once you went negative, bad things happened.

I also remember an old game, where normal hits went to your endurance (where you had plenty) while 5 points over the target went to hit points (less plentiful). This could easily be done with a comparative attack defense check. Still two pools...

Or ditch hit points altogether and just compare the successes, handing out damage by the differing amount (modified by Con and armor of course).

Rob, I assume you know Harnmaster just as well as Harn the setting--why not go with that? That said, I've no idea how long it takes to create a Harnmaster NPC/monster.

You guys want to crossbreed GURPS  and D20 !!??

 I suddenly feel like Obi-Wan Kenobi - there is this disturbance in the force  like millions of NPCs just cried out in pain.


 This seems so strange reading all of the above. My reaction is to either suggest just doing a hgome brew of D20 , OR add some extra charts to basic GURPS 4/e LITE.


- Ed C.

It would pay to actually read a thread. No one actually talked about GURPS _rules_...

Quote from: Pierce InverarityRob, I assume you know Harnmaster just as well as Harn the setting--why not go with that? That said, I've no idea how long it takes to create a Harnmaster NPC/monster.

I am looking at the RPG market and wonder if there is a niche for a D20 variant that is more realistic and support low fantasy. Plus neither GURPS nor Harnmaster are OGL. I am sure I can do a good job writing for Columbia or SJ Games. In the end I am writing for them.

Quote from: KoltarYou guys want to crossbreed GURPS  and D20 !!??
- Ed C.

When I DMed 3.0 for the first time in 2000 I found that the same techniques of using Skills and advantages, as a DM, worked for D&D the same way as the worked for GURPS. The first group I ran 3.0 for was used to 2nd Edition and played 3.0 as second edition on steroids. When I ran it it was an eye-opener in the way I continually called for skill rolls and took advantage of various feats they had.

Sure they are different rules systems and over the long haul of a campaign the difference become pronounced as D20 edges into the realm of the superheroics. One of the reasons I never switched to using D20 as my main game.

I believe that a low fantasy, more realistic version can be crafted. As for doing that instead of GURPS well D20 is under the OGL GURPS isn't. If there was an OGL for GURPS I would using that in a heartbeat for what I want to write.