Lately I've enjoyed some bouts of Advanced Melee. For anyone here under 40, it had hex-based combat with meaningful tactical and character build choices. Even the full Fantasy Trip game often felt like a combat system with bolt-on RPG elements...the same charge that folks level at 4e. But I dig TFT. It was fast and fun, and emulated sword and sorcery very well.

Another old-school game that required a hex grid to play was Dragonquest.

I haven't played 4e, so I wonder if any of those who have can speak to comparisons with the previous generation of tactical RPG combat.

RQ was pretty good with a tactical map and the strike rank system. It's a simple but extensible combat system. We never found too much of a hole in it and it produced some pretty memorable fights. Handling time does go up exponentially.

Tactics in RQ consists in use of movement on the variable strike ranks, timing of magic, special tricks like knockback, and positioning.

It is easy to run a squad level combat in Melee/Wizard. Each character fits on an index card and go at it.

4E combat is different because of all the effects that you need to know/have written down. Think of each effect as an exception to the rules.  (ex: Kobolds get a bonus when they are adjacent to each other, etc...). 4E is fun, just different.

A couple of minis-based/tactical games you may enjoy:

1. http://www.darkcitygames.com
- Clone of the Melee/Zizard rules with some nifty solo adventures.

2. http://www.rattrapproductions.com/default.html
- Click on Broadsword Adventures. The game is really out since I have a copy. Fun tactical combat game.

Quote from: The_Shadow;296305Lately I've enjoyed some bouts of Advanced Melee. For anyone here under 40, it had hex-based combat with meaningful tactical and character build choices. Even the full Fantasy Trip game often felt like a combat system with bolt-on RPG elements...the same charge that folks level at 4e. But I dig TFT. It was fast and fun, and emulated sword and sorcery very well.

Another old-school game that required a hex grid to play was Dragonquest.

I haven't played 4e, so I wonder if any of those who have can speak to comparisons with the previous generation of tactical RPG combat.

There are rule similarities with DragonQuest, and the post TSR versions of D&D.

These are the same kind of similarities that 3E had... Things like elevation, being prone, etc all had specific rules and conditions. There were specific rules for being "engaged" in combat that are somewhat similar to D&D's Attack of Opportunity rules. The rule for "Withdraw" in DQ (rule 13.3, if you want the DQ ref) says that a withdrawal consists of a one hex slide while not changing facing. You also had the option of making either an offensive or defensive withdrawal- an offensive withdrawal allowed a single attack at -20%, a defensive withdrawal required the use of a shield, and allowed for +20 to Defense.

It's just a miniatures boardgame! Haha. Yeah. Well, anyhow, the combat example on page 23 (a party is ambushed while in the wilderness by a hobgoblin, orc, and goblin) reads very similar to a 4E combat.

There is Ritual magic in DQ that is broken off and separate from regular spell magic.

The Glamor magic of DQ is very similar to the At-Will minor magics that 4E characters get: that is, if you have magic, you can be assumed to cast little things. The Colleges of Magic in DQ could certainly be taken as similar to the many magical flavors of D&D (where warlocks differ from sorcerer differ from druids..)

I don't know much about 4e, but I do know a bit about TFT, since we used it in our last campaign.

With 4e, from what I gather, the PCs are going to have a lot more lasting power than TFT PCs. This is actually generally true for D&D compared to TFT, though it tends to matter more as you level up with older versions of D&D. Taking the standard 4e encounter setup as an example, I understand the party can make it through a reasonable number of fights in a single adventure. But if you throw an equal strength group of enemies against a TFT party, their adventuring day is pretty much over.

Well, at least unless they get fantastically lucky or get the drop on the foes and cripple them early on. Once the fight is over, the party is likely to be pretty banged up, and the wizard may or may not be near death just from spellcasting. Since there isn't much in the way of healing (unless the ref is making it rain healing potions), there just isn't a lot of room for many straight up, head-to-head fights for a TFT party. I love the system, myself, but I tend to like it more for sword and sorcery than for dungeon adventuring.

The tactical nature of the combat and wizardry might make you think you'd have a lot of fighting in TFT adventures, but that isn't my experience. Fights happen, but you know that when they do happen, they will be brutal. I think we tended to have only one or two fights a session, and that's not because the fights took a long time to play out.  

I guess there may be a similarity between 4e and TFT in the fact that the combat system is a privileged subsystem, but I don't really imagine that game sessions would play out that much alike in the two games.

TFT is good shit.  

The comparison with 4e is that they both mix Fantasy RPG with boardgame elements.   However, TFT is brutal and 4e is heroic/cinematic so PCs in 4e are meant to survive longer against greater odds.  

TFT isn't a great dungeoneering game like T&T or D&D.  However, it does historical games really wonderfully.  We did a Vikings campaign with TFT and a Romans campaign and both were sweet.

Cry Havoc or any of it's offshoots are pretty good historical hex-based tactical games, very similar to TFT and seem like they could be the basis for an rpg. Later add-ons included a simple magic system and fantasy monsters. If you're interested, most of the game is available online here and here

Quote from: Kellri;296724Cry Havoc or any of it's offshoots are pretty good historical hex-based tactical games, very similar to TFT and seem like they could be the basis for an rpg. Later add-ons included a simple magic system and fantasy monsters. If you're interested, most of the game is available online here and here

Holy shit, dude, I lurved me some Cry Havoc!  Now I can send that useless Sir Llewellyn against the peasants again!  I could never get a good roll with that son of a whore.